sadoldgit

We have caused some problems with Saka on the right but have nothing down the left. Why persist with Trippier on the left when he is so right footed?

More on Timpson’s appointment. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp08y5p52e2o.amp

I was just raising the question, not suggesting that we shouldn’t. As you say, it’s a democracy and if enough people vote for candidates standing on a single issue they will get elected under either system. I understand that some PR systems have a % you must reach before you start gaining seats to keep out the fringe elements. Not so democratic of course but still more democratic than our current system. I should add that I support PR in principle. I’d have to see how it would work in practice before I would vote for change. There are still elements of various systems that are problematic but various different systems have various different workarounds. We don’t have to buy one off the shelf, we can get one tailor made, should we so wish. I missed the guy’s name who was talking about PR this morning, but he knew his stuff and was very persuasive. I have little recollection about the previous referendum other than we weren’t offered a proper choice of systems and the whole thing was fudged. At some point in the future it needs to be addressed properly, even if we make the decision to stay as we are. When asked why Labour would bother to engage with the process after winning such a large majority, he pointed out that they rarely win power and, with the way the vote fluctuates, could find themselves back in the political wilderness again after a term or too. PR can provide a more measured response at the polls with fewer wild swings which could protect them from the backlash that the Tories have experienced after a long period in power.

We’ve got to grow the economy somehow!

James Timpson prison minister! Sue Gray has been a busy lady.

They wouldn’t have to worry about targeting winnable seats under PR. There must be a system for by-elections as many countries already use PR. I think there is a different system of dealing with local issues specifically, not being an expert on PR I can’t answer but there was a guy on the radio earlier who had all of the answers. If there was enough support for Pro Gaza across the country they would get seats. It also raises the question of do we want to send people to Parliament on single issues? One of the points he raised struck a chord. Apparently it is estimated that 25% votes cast were tactical votes. In our own poll nearly a third said they were voting tactically. You shouldn’t have to vote to what you don’t want in order to get something you might prefer. With PR there is no need to vote tactically.

You don’t think it worthwhile having a discussion about Sunak’s replacement? Ok. Given your extreme political views it would have been interesting to hear your view, but if you can’t be bothered, so be it. I’m sure you will post an opinion when we know the result though, especially if they choose a raging pinko. 😉

No worries Whelk, if I didn’t go a few days without being abused by you I would worry that something was wrong. 😘 I do take your point though. Yes, it does crop up at every election, probably because the FPTP system is far from ideal. I have heard strong arguments for both over the last few days and can see the case from both sides. What I can’t get my head around is how unbalanced the vote per seat is under FPTP. A consequence of PR is that Reform would have a much greater representation in the Commons, but it we believe in democracy, the seats in Parliament should reflect the votes cast and by extension, the will of the people.

Wow, Starmer is on it from the start. What a refreshing start to a premiership.

Get out of the wrong side of the bed as usual eh Whelk? Look, I started this thread because there had been some discussion about PR on the election thread and I thought it deserved a thread of its own. If you are bored with the subject why bother? Why not toddle off somewhere else and call someone else a c**t? I am sure there are still a few on here you haven’t abused yet.

If they don’t, “Nigel” and the Tory Party will leave Labour in power for decades. “Nigel” will never, ever be PM with Reform as the country don’t elect extremist parties. The only way the Tories will be in a position to win again is by getting rid of the headbangers and showing your party up for what they are. They got plenty of votes this time round through protest at the crap job the Tories had done. Let’s see how many they get in 5 years time shall we? Immigrant bashing will only get you so far.

You may find it boring Whelk, yet here you are. I don’t want it overturned after every election, I just want a fairer system.

Just seen that Therese Coffey lost her seat 🥳🥂🍾

In what way have I been “manipulated by Farage” Whelk? I have been an advocate for the implementation of some kind of PR in the UK for years, hence years voting for LibDems. It is natural to want to discuss it straight after an election isn’t it? My choice of National Anthem - I Vow To Thee My Country

Who do we think it will be? Some of the runners and riders - https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/05/who-could-be-next-tory-leader-nine-possible-candidates-from-centrist-to-rightwing Current odds https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-conservative-leader

They didn’t know at the time what would happen to them but were willing to chance it anyway. Now of course they know the scheme will be scrapped so it is moot. There is still the very real risk of drowning though.

Isn’t it illegal under international law to deport people back to their CoO if it puts them in danger?

Not everyone can go on forever at the top (not even Pepe). Is it brave to sacrifice the team to satisfy one man’s ego? Ronaldo was never going to admit that he isn’t up to it now and retire from international football, but his performances have shown that he clearly isn’t. I guess they were gambling on him conjuring up another moment of magic. The gamble failed.

I guess the argument is progress in competitions. Would we rather we played brilliant, attacking football but never get out of the group stages? In an ideal world we would play great football and win everything. Sadly we do not live in an ideal world.

I have no idea, which is why I would like to see an independent commission deal with it and to come up with recommendations. There is no right or wrong, but there just has to be a better way than FPTP if Parliament is there to reflect the way the people have voted.

This is the problem. There is no perfect system but it is trying to find a system that ticks most boxes for us. Forms of PR work well in other countries, not so well also, but because it works well in, say, New Zealand, their system might not work as well here.

Various systems and who uses them. https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/

Some pros and cons https://uk-engage.org/2013/08/what-are-the-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-using-a-proportional-representation-pr-electoral-system/

I agree that Labour have a mountain to climb in stopping the small boats. However media reporters seem to be able to track down gang leaders abroad so hopefully a more concerted effort to smash the gangs, to use Starmer’s words, will have an effect. The threat of deportation to Rwanda hasn’t worked as a deterrent nor does the possibility of drowning at sea. What exactly is an illegal immigrant? It is not illegal to land in our shores and claim asylum. Part of the problem has been the lack of processing of asylum seekers claims are dealing with them appropriately. As for how they are treated when they arrive, they are human beings and need to be treated as such.

Put simply, democracy is the rule of the people for the people by the people. In the early days of democracy in Ancient Greece most of “the people” didn’t have a vote. Socrates himself said that democracy was nearly the worst kind of rule at the time. Fortunately, things have changed over the years, although it wasn’t that long ago historically that woman were denied that right here and there is still a discussion about at what age here you are entitled to have a vote. But just how democratic is democracy? The word “undemocratic” is thrown around a lot when we aren’t happy with the way a vote goes. Clearly if 100% of the people vote for something, it works very well. Not so well if the vote is split 51%/49%. Is it really “democratic” if “the will of the people” is determined by just one person? Clearly it is not “the will of the people”, it is the will of most people. And that is the problem with democracy. The will of many people is discounted completely. The thorny issue of PR naturally raises its head after every vote. Labour have a massive majority with only 35% of the electorate having voted for them. People are left frustrated because they feel their vote counts for nothing in a safe seat area or if they are voting for any one of the smaller parties. On the election thread we have some calling for PR and some supporting the FPTP system. Personally I am in favour of a system that incorporates PR as it is more “democratic” than being governed totally by a party that the majority haven’t voted for. We had a fudged referendum on a form of PR that was voted against, but surely it is time to have a proper, grown up, look at the system and to find a way that gives the people a proportionate voice in Parliament? There are good arguments for and against PR. There are different types of PR, so which is best if we do go down that route? I believe an independent Royal commission should be set up to look at the way we are governed. The UK in 2024 is a very different place to the one where the current voting system was introduced. Neither the Tories nor Labour have an interest in changing the status quo, and why should they if it works for them? It doesn’t work for millions of voters whose vote doesn’t give them a voice though. So then, PR - yes or no? And if yes, what type of PR should we look to adopt?