The Kraken Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Our league attendances this season make some pretty impressive reading. After 22 home league games our average attendance is 21,729. Our total attendance over the course of the season is 478,042. Saturday's sell out means that we will exceed half a million on Saturday. Also, a crowd of around 30K will mean our average attendance for the season will rise above 22,000. On three occasions in the league our attendance has exceeded 25,000 (against Bournemouth - 26289, Brighton - 26237 and Carlisle - 25076). In only 5 league games has our attendance dropped below 20,000. The highest attendance of the season came in the FA Cup game against Man Utd - 28792. Here's looking forward to seeing those numbers continue to increase next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish fingers Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Walsall should be very proud. More saints fans to see us play them than they did Man Yoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Here's looking forward to seeing those numbers continue to increase next year. Along with a lot more home fans at St Mary's next season, we will see a huge rise in the away fan contingents with Championship clubs regularly bringing 1,000's, rather than the 100's that some League One clubs bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoneuelllfanclub Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 reaffirms our position as the biggest club south of london. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Reaffirms the fact that SMS will be too small for PL football.... Chestnut Old Digs Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Reaffirms the fact that SMS will be too small for PL football.... Chestnut Old Digs Out It may be an old-chestnut, but it is certainly a correct chestnut. A 32,000 capacity stadium simply isn't big enough for Saints, hence why Cortese stated in the BBC interview last year they have plans for expansion. Teams like Hull City and Wolves are planning for expansions that make their stadiums bigger than St Mary's... http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-3515816-detail/article.html http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2010/12/08/molineux-expansion-could-begin-in-april/ I'd imagine Saints will also reveal plans in the next couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 It may be an old-chestnut, but it is certainly a correct chestnut. A 32,000 capacity stadium simply isn't big enough for Saints, hence why Cortese stated in the BBC interview last year they have plans for expansion. Teams like Hull City and Wolves are planning for expansions that make their stadiums bigger than St Mary's... http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-3515816-detail/article.html http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2010/12/08/molineux-expansion-could-begin-in-april/ I'd imagine Saints will also reveal plans in the next couple of years. which begs the question were have all these fans been the last two seasons........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 The attendances have been really good this year, which is great. It does seem a shame that more people can't go regularly - certainly loads were interested enough to go to Wemberley. Obviously there are loads of reasons why some can't make it more often. I just get a real buzz when the place is full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 which begs the question were have all these fans been the last two seasons........ I would support an increased stadium in the hope that having more seats to fill will keep prices at a reasonable level (Wigan have some prem games for £15 tickets), rather than sell out each week and go down the London club route of £45 tickets (even clubs like Fulham and West Ham have been charging that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliegeorgesflymo Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 which begs the question were have all these fans been the last two seasons........ trying to keep the effing mortgage paid you tw%t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 trying to keep the effing mortgage paid you tw%t which is kind of the opposite arguement to what he was saying, if you can't afford to go in league one you certainly wont afford it in the prem, so you wouldn't be one of the extra fans he was referring to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 which begs the question were have all these fans been the last two seasons........ Same happens to every club if they drop through the league. Man Utd wouldn't get anywhere near their current 75,000 average if they were in League One. Only a handful of English clubs would average 22,000 in the 3rd tier like Saints have though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Same happens to every club if they drop through the league. Man Utd wouldn't get anywhere near a 75,000 average if they were in League One. Only a handful of English clubs would average 22,000 in the 3rd tier like Saints have though. in recent years... Norwich , Leeds, Man City, Forest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 in recent years... Norwich , Leeds, Man City, Forest? + Leicester. Having said that I agree, our attendances have stayed impressively high, does show massive potential for future success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 trying to keep the effing mortgage paid you tw%t Aren't we all? calm down you've made the point, if that's the case surely less are going to turn up in the PL were the tickets are a lot more expensive than in league one were (relatively) they're much cheaper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 in recent years... Norwich , Leeds, Man City, Forest? Forest didn't. Not many though is it? How many current Premier League and Championship teams could average 22,000+ in the 3rd tier? Looking at current average attendances, I'd say 14 (not including Saints)... Man Utd Arsenal Newcastle Man City Liverpool Chelsea Sunderland Villa Everton Spurs West Ham Leeds Norwich Derby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 + Leicester. Having said that I agree, our attendances have stayed impressively high, does show massive potential for future success. Leicester and Forest didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I would support an increased stadium in the hope that having more seats to fill will keep prices at a reasonable level (Wigan have some prem games for £15 tickets), rather than sell out each week and go down the London club route of £45 tickets (even clubs like Fulham and West Ham have been charging that) Arsenal charge £90 for top games which is frankly way over the top for a game of footie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Leicester and Forest didn't. Going then, how many did they average? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 how many did they average? Forest and Leicester both averaged 20k in the 3rd tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Forest didn't. Not many though is it? How many current Premier League and Championship teams could average 22,000+ in the 3rd tier? Looking at current average attendances, I'd say 14 (not including Saints)... Man Utd Arsenal Newcastle Man City Liverpool Chelsea Sunderland Villa Everton Spurs West Ham Leeds Norwich Derby I'd make you right on that list. The potential here is massive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
positivepete Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/LGE/attend.html attendance records to date...........Saints 25th average attendance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I would support an increased stadium in the hope that having more seats to fill will keep prices at a reasonable level (Wigan have some prem games for £15 tickets), rather than sell out each week and go down the London club route of £45 tickets (even clubs like Fulham and West Ham have been charging that) Wigan are a funny case from what I understand. It's basically not a football town and Dave Whelan has bankrolled them to the prem to try and generate something. I think they will go the London route of higher prices; it only seems to be the northern clubs who keep the prices really low. If we get to the Prem then we will sell out at those prices as people will come out of the woodwork to pay them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Forest and Leicester both averaged 20k in the 3rd tier. Right, so not really too much in it really! To be fair I think Leicester's crowds have helped up well in the last few years and wouldn't put them too far off being on a apr with us, same as Forest and both Sheffield clubs (know their crowds have taken a fair old dip in the last couple of years, but not sure how well ours would have held up if we were struggling midtable in League One this year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martel Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 It may be an old-chestnut, but it is certainly a correct chestnut. A 32,000 capacity stadium simply isn't big enough for Saints, hence why Cortese stated in the BBC interview last year they have plans for expansion. Teams like Hull City and Wolves are planning for expansions that make their stadiums bigger than St Mary's... http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-3515816-detail/article.html http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2010/12/08/molineux-expansion-could-begin-in-april/ I'd imagine Saints will also reveal plans in the next couple of years. I would have to agree with all of that, however, it begs the question, what capacity do you believe it should move up too, my first shot would be 50,000 and if you agree does everyone think that we can fill a stadium of that size on a regular basis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I think they will go the London route of higher prices; it only seems to be the northern clubs who keep the prices really low. If we get to the Prem then we will sell out at those prices as people will come out of the woodwork to pay them. I'm not convinced. We didn't sell out against Man United at £30 a head, why would we do so at £45? Yes, it was twinned with the Carlisle game, but it would also get twinned with a game against a team nobody cares about if it was a Premier League game. They might get away with big buck prices for the top games if we're doing well, but can you see us filling SMS for a game against Blackburn or Wigan at those sort of prices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I'm not convinced. We didn't sell out against Man United at £30 a head, why would we do so at £45? Yes, it was twinned with the Carlisle game, but it would also get twinned with a game against a team nobody cares about if it was a Premier League game. They might get away with big buck prices for the top games if we're doing well, but can you see us filling SMS for a game against Blackburn or Wigan at those sort of prices? I'm going by the assertion that others have made that we were regularly selling out in the Prem; was this not the case? (I stopped going after the first season at SMS so have to trust what others are saying on this one.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I would have to agree with all of that, however, it begs the question, what capacity do you believe it should move up too, my first shot would be 50,000 and if you agree does everyone think that we can fill a stadium of that size on a regular basis? Roughly 45,000 possibly up to 50,000 might be about right and is apparently what Cortese said at the fans dinner. No chance they would fill it every game, however they could get close for games against Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea and Man City. Then you have other attractive games like Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland. That is 10 out of 19 games and may make such a capacity worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I'm not convinced. We didn't sell out against Man United at £30 a head, why would we do so at £45? Yes, it was twinned with the Carlisle game, but it would also get twinned with a game against a team nobody cares about if it was a Premier League game. They might get away with big buck prices for the top games if we're doing well, but can you see us filling SMS for a game against Blackburn or Wigan at those sort of prices? - Previous games against Man Utd between 2001 and 2005 in the Premier League have all sold out. - Saints fans also knew Man Utd would put out a weakened side in the FA Cup, Saints also rested players unlike they would if it were a Premier League game. - They were also watching a League One Southampton side, not a Premier League Southampton side. - The linking of a game to Carlisle made tickets on the day cost £57, which is off putting for many. If as you say a Premier game against Man Utd was linked to another, it would be a more attractive linked game than Carlisle United. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry the Badger Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 We would not sell over 45'000 tickets for games like Everton, Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland. I think we would struggle to sell that many for any premier league game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I would have to agree with all of that, however, it begs the question, what capacity do you believe it should move up too, my first shot would be 50,000 and if you agree does everyone think that we can fill a stadium of that size on a regular basis? ALl depends on ease and cost of Construction - it could well be just as easy to do 50k rather than 45k, then you may as well do 50k. Guess it also depends on Council permission etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 We would not sell over 45'000 tickets for games like Everton, Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland. I didn't say we would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 We would not sell over 45'000 tickets for games like Everton, Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland. I think we would struggle to sell that many for any premier league game. Exactly. Would be doing well to sell 30k for those games. Our support has been good this season, but let's not get too carried away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 (edited) Exactly. Would be doing well to sell 30k for those games. Our support has been good this season, but let's not get too carried away. Saints have already shown they can sell out for "those kinds of game". Hence why between 2001 and 2005 they averaged over 30,000 each season. Edited 4 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 (edited) which begs the question were have all these fans been the last two seasons........ There are predominantly four types of football match attendees: 1) Die-hards who will go as often as they can regardless of the quality level of the League we're in. It's their main hobby. 2) Fans who will go as often as they can but are restricted by other commitments. It's not their main hobby but they love Saints all the same. 3) People who like to watch a good game of football and have a soft spot for their local side. They tend to go for the games most likely to be the most entertaining. 4) 'Non-fans' who enjoy going to watch a game of football every now and again as a social activity. These will tend to be individuals or corporate customers who will tend to go for the more glamorous games because, again, they are going for the entertainment potential and the sense of 'occasion' A football club needs all 4 types of 'customer' to thrive, especially in the higher leagues. Thus, the higher up the leagues we go, the more we should be striving to attract as many people in categories 3 & 4 as possible. Simple as that. Edited 4 May, 2011 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 (edited) The larger St Mary's gets the larger the away end becomes and more Premier League away fans will come. A 50,000 St Mary's could have 7,500 away fans for a cup game and 5,000 for a League game, so you would need 42,500 - 45,000 home fans to fill it. Edited 4 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I'm going by the assertion that others have made that we were regularly selling out in the Prem; was this not the case? (I stopped going after the first season at SMS so have to trust what others are saying on this one.) I think we averaged 30k+ over the course of the 4 seasons there, and around 2002-4 I think we had something like 22 consecutive sell-outs, so if the team is doing well, the people will follow, but back then we did also have a 3-tier ticket pricing structure, so it wasn't such a hard sell to fill 28,000 seats for a game against Middlesbrough. If I remember rightly, the year we went down, we actually had a 4-tier pricing structure, with 4 games being classified as "platinum" (Pompey, Man United, Arsenal and Chelsea), which I think were somewhere in the region of £34. Knocking two or three quid off per tier, that gets you down to £25-27 for a "bronze" game back in 2005, which seems fairly reasonable, especially for someone who can't afford the top prices or isn't one of the first in line to get a general sale ticket. The membership scheme the club used to operate meant that for a long period of time, many games never reached general sale. Of course, matchday ticket prices become a bit of an irrelevancy after a while - they're important to begin with to get people through the gate, but as soon as you start selling out, all of a sudden a season ticket becomes a much more valued commodity, so there are then fewer matchday tickets available each week. At one stage, we had 23,000 season ticket holders. If we get back to (and beyond) that stage again, I would suggest that would be the time to seriously look at expanding the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 - The linking of a game to Carlisle made tickets on the day cost £57, which is off putting for many. If as you say a Premier game against Man Utd was linked to another, it would be a more attractive linked game than Carlisle United. Linking a Man United PL game to, say, a Wigan PL game could cost anything up to £80. Would that not be just a touch off-putting?! The "linked" game will always be unattractive compared to the main event - whether it's Carlisle in League One or Wigan in the Premier League, it's still got the same (lack of) appeal. The original technical plans for SMS allow for the Northam, Chapel and Kingsland stands to be extended, up to a maximum capacity of 55,000. The Itchen can't be expanded because of the already-massive weight of the offices and corporate facilities on the foundations. However, I would be amazed if the council granted planning permission for any expansion without the re-introduction of the public transport travel schemes that were in operation until 3 years ago - they were a condition of the original build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooney Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Rupes estimated that we would need to sell 25K Season Tickets each year over 5 years to prove viability for stadium expansion when we were in the Premiership. I do not think we an get anywhere near that so talk of increasing capacity is a pipe dream I am afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 The larger St Mary's gets the larger the away end becomes and more Premier League away fans will come. A 50,000 St Mary's could have 7,500 away fans for a cup game and 5,000 for a League game, so you would need 42,500 - 45,000 home fans to fill it. That assumes we allow away teams to bring 5,000. Old Trafford holds more than 76,000, but they only give just over 3,000 to away fans. Firstly, they have the capability to sell those extra seats to home fans; secondly, they don't want to give any sort of potential advantage to the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 4 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I would have to agree with all of that, however, it begs the question, what capacity do you believe it should move up too, my first shot would be 50,000 and if you agree does everyone think that we can fill a stadium of that size on a regular basis? Far too high IMO. Previously in the Prem we averaged around 30K. Full houses against the top sides, but often 27-30K against the lesser lights. That seems a pretty good benchmark to use. Against the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City and Tottenham I could see us selling 40K, so long we were performing fairly well i.e. mid table. Any more than this is unrealistic unless we sell around double the allocation to the away side, so around 8,000 tickets. Against sides like Everton, Newcastle, and Villa we'd do well to sell 35K. And against the rest 30K would be a decent turnout. The amount of additional revenue available from extra seating is miniscule compared to the amounts given out in TV rights. It's debatable whether extra seats would bring us any more than £3 or £4 million per year. TV rights for the top sides are not too far away from £100 million annually, which kind of puts it into perspective. With that in mind and, given that we already have a decent sized stadium as it is (and that just extending St. Mary's to 40K would cost around £25 million) I don't see stadium expansion as a viable business case. If significant investment were put into the team to enable us to consistently finish top 8 or above then maybe, but without that I think we're fine with what we have. I can't imagine anyting worse than having a 50,000 seat stadium and only half filling it for many games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Saints have already shown they can sell out for "those kinds of game". Hence why between 2001 and 2005 they averaged over 30,000 each season. Yes, I am well aware of that, hence we were "doing well" then. Same way we would be doing well to get 30k on a regular basis for such games again. Personally I can't see us getting anywhere near 45k for such games, but we're speculating about something so far off in the future, its impossible for anyone to really know. Out of interest, which clubs have made significant changes to an already "finished"/fully contructed grounds in order to increase capacity? Can't think of too many? I know Wolves have sort of filled in one of their corners, can't think of too many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 With that in mind and, given that we already have a decent sized stadium as it is (and that just extending St. Mary's to 40K would cost around £25 million) I don't see stadium expansion as a viable business case. If significant investment were put into the team to enable us to consistently finish top 8 or above then maybe, but without that I think we're fine with what we have. I can't imagine anyting worse than having a 50,000 seat stadium and only half filling it for many games. And of course if the worst happens and we end up getting relegated again, we'd possibly be lucky to even half-fill it, leaving us with a rather large white elephant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Out of interest, which clubs have made significant changes to an already "finished"/fully contructed grounds in order to increase capacity? Can't think of too many? I know Wolves have sort of filled in one of their corners, can't think of too many others. I think the Wolves expansion (not even 1000 seats, I think) is a temporary, uncovered section in the corner. They've got plans to rebuild at least two of the current stands, but I suspect that depends on them staying up. Sunderland's upper tier wasn't there when they first built the Stadium of Light - that was added a couple of years later at considerable expense. Rupert Lowe and Andrew Cowen's analysis of stadium expansion was always that while you could build a new stadium for around £1000 per seat, expanding that stadium further down the line would then cost £3000 per seat. That was in 2004/5, so it's probably even higher now. Adding 10,000 seats to SMS would more than double the cost of the original build of the stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 (edited) Rupes estimated that we would need to sell 25K Season Tickets each year over 5 years to prove viability for stadium expansion when we were in the Premiership. I do not think we an get anywhere near that so talk of increasing capacity is a pipe dream I am afraid. Rupert also didn't invest any money in the team to make it an attractive proposition to watch. For the first time in 125 years Saints have ownership that is investing significant amounts in the club. Edited 4 May, 2011 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 I think the Wolves expansion (not even 1000 seats, I think) is a temporary, uncovered section in the corner. They've got plans to rebuild at least two of the current stands, but I suspect that depends on them staying up. Nope, they are going ahead with it regardless of if they stay up or not and is costing them £40m+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Nope, they are going ahead with it regardless of if they stay up or not and is costing them £40m+. And what will the new capacity be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 And what will the new capacity be? Initially 37,000 and possibly later up to 50,000. Work begins this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 (edited) Wolves are re-building the Stan Cullis stand at the end of this season. I think their final plans are for a ground of around 40k. That would be more than enough for Saints. Some people are clearly nuts if they think we need a 45k/50k ground. I'll ask on Sunday as I'm going to the WWFC/WBA derby. Edited 4 May, 2011 by View From The Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 May, 2011 Share Posted 4 May, 2011 Initially 37,000 and possibly later up to 50,000. Work begins this summer. So £40m to increase capacity by 8,000. £5,000 per seat. Repaid by 10 seasons of complete sell-outs, I guess, but still one hell of an investment if they end up going down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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