badgerx16 Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 And she is pro country pursuits. I think she's great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 The veto means that technically, the 26 nations in this agreement cannot use the institutions of the EU to implement and enforce the current plans. The rumblings from our EU partners is that they will seek ways to use these institutions regardless. As I said in an earlier post, it's only really a veto if Britain follows this up by preventing the 26 from using EU institutions. Otherwise, it's just a news story and a lot of bad PR for us internationally. Its biggest meaning is probably symbolic. Dont agree. Preventing the use of EU institutions is the only way that Cameron can make good on the veto, in order to protect the City from taxation/regulation. Otherwise, as you said, its just bad PR internationally and good PR domestically which will turn to very bad PR domestically if we then step back from making good on our word to protect the City. I expect us to go all the way on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 13 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2011 I drove by my local hunt on the way up to Doncaster. Needless to say I applauded them as I passed. It's really great to see such huge numbers hunting within the law with the eagle (ha ha). Roll on the next Conservative majority government so we can get the ban repealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 Dont agree. Preventing the use of EU institutions is the only way that Cameron can make good on the veto, in order to protect the City from taxation/regulation. Otherwise, as you said, its just bad PR internationally and good PR domestically which will turn to very bad PR domestically if we then step back from making good on our word to protect the City. I expect us to go all the way on this. Well, there were certainly a couple of MPs making the point about the EU's institutions during Cameron's Q+A session yesterday. If we do pursue this, I'd expect the end of the Coalition government and the end of our involvement in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 I drove by my local hunt on the way up to Doncaster. Needless to say I applauded them as I passed. It's really great to see such huge numbers hunting within the law with the eagle (ha ha). Roll on the next Conservative majority government so we can get the ban repealed. "The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 13 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2011 "The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable". You should remember that before your daily trip to MacDonalds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 (edited) You should remember that before your daily trip to MacDonalds. I challenge you to a 60 mile bike ride over and around the Trough of Bowland. Alternatively we could walk the Fairfield Horseshoe. Edited 13 December, 2011 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 Well, there were certainly a couple of MPs making the point about the EU's institutions during Cameron's Q+A session yesterday. If we do pursue this, I'd expect the end of the Coalition government and the end of our involvement in the EU. In fairness, that may well be out of our control. There seems to be a sentiment floating around that the reason the 26 (well, 2 really...) were so intransigent/inflexible is that Sarkosy wants to force us out. I get the impression that the German sentiment is softening, perhaps in the cold light of day the Germans are getting a bit worried about losing us, seeing as we are much more alike minded to them about living within your means than the French or the Southern countries. However, the dust hasnt yet settled enough that distracting all the woes from the Euro with a bit of Brit-bashing still has good domestic political mileage in der Vaterland... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 In fairness, that may well be out of our control. There seems to be a sentiment floating around that the reason the 26 (well, 2 really...) were so intransigent/inflexible is that Sarkosy wants to force us out. I get the impression that the German sentiment is softening, perhaps in the cold light of day the Germans are getting a bit worried about losing us, seeing as we are much more alike minded to them about living within your means than the French or the Southern countries. However, the dust hasnt yet settled enough that distracting all the woes from the Euro with a bit of Brit-bashing still has good domestic political mileage in der Vaterland... Take away our fiscal contribution to the EU, then the whole thing would collapse. Even that French Napoleon wannabe, can't be that stupid!.........could he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 13 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2011 I challenge you to a 60 mile bike ride over and around the Trough of Bowland. Alternatively we could walk the Fairfield Horseshoe. You are like all fat people pretending your glutenous greed doesn't affect the ability for your podgy little legs to function. You remind me of Stu Romsey Saint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 You are like all fat people pretending your glutenous greed doesn't affect the ability for your podgy little legs to function. You remind me of Stu Romsey Saint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 (edited) OK' date=' finally someone (fairplay to the Duckhunter as well) who has stated their position clearly - However, may I ask what particular concerns around limiting individual countries fiscal policy you have? [/quote'] The concerns I have are probably better articulated in this piece by Owen Jones and most defintiely the limitations it will place on countries to adopt a fiscal policy of their (or their electorate's) choosing. The following two paragraphs in the piece spell it out: But that does not mean the left should be applauding the EU treaty. It could hardly be more disastrous for the European left. At a stroke, it effectively abolishes social democratic governments in the eurozone. As Paul mason put it, "by enshrining in national and international law the need for balanced budgets and near-zero structural deficits, the eurozone has outlawed expansionary fiscal policy". Furthermore, all eurozone budgets must be submitted to the unelected European Commission for approval. There will be those who believe that a fiscal stimulus in the current economic climate would be disastrous, and they are entitled to that view. But it is up to the people of Europe to decide at the ballot box. As Economist columnist Baghote points out, it would become "pointless" to vote for a party that advocates "Keynesian stimulus policies or tax cuts". It's difficult to disagree with his understated conclusion: "That feel politically very dodgy to me". And here's the whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/13/left-right-challenge-eu Edited 13 December, 2011 by um pahars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 Farage today :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 13 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2011 He's spot on again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 13 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2011 Tonight’s YouGov poll has topline figures of CON 41%, LAB 39%, LDEM 10% There is also a new ComRes poll out tonight for the Independent which has topline figures of CON 38%, LAB 38%, LDEM 12% Ho Ho Ho. It seems that the Liberal Elite aren't as in touch as they thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 Tonight’s YouGov poll has topline figures of CON 41%, LAB 39%, LDEM 10% There is also a new ComRes poll out tonight for the Independent which has topline figures of CON 38%, LAB 38%, LDEM 12% Ho Ho Ho. It seems that the Liberal Elite aren't as in touch as they thought. I don't understand. Are you a member of the exclusive Liberal Elite club by voting Lib Dem or Labour? Can you specify for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 13 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2011 I don't understand. Are you a member of the exclusive Liberal Elite club by voting Lib Dem or Labour? Can you specify for us? Most Labour and Liberal voters support David Cameron's stance as most Labour and Liberal voters don't share the beliefs of the Islington brigade of career politicians. People like yourself and the wishy washy gang on here are just as out of touch as Milliband, Balls, Clegg and co. Therefore I class you lot alongside these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 I agree Cameron had little choice come the summit because Sarkozy/Merkel told him to do one, but if he'd been building alliances the last few months rather than mouthing off that result would have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 Most Labour and Liberal voters support David Cameron's stance as most Labour and Liberal voters don't share the beliefs of the Islington brigade of career politicians. People like yourself and the wishy washy gang on here are just as out of touch as Milliband, Balls, Clegg and co. Therefore I class you lot alongside these people. C'mon mate - you've pilloried the same people in this very thread for not immediately explaining Kate Hoey's opinions. The EU isn't a left or right issue. France and Germany are both governed by right of centre governments and they're rushing headlong toward further economic and political union. Furthermore, politics isn't the simple assignment of people into left or right camps. Believe it or not, people hold different views on different issues. Fair play - I understand that provocative statements generate replies. Suppose it depends on what you're after really. Do you want people to be aware of your presence or actually engage in an argument? My view is that you've taken the easy route to your own detriment. I really try to judge each post on its merits. Frankly, I lack the time or inclination to dredge up all the shyte people have posted and call them up on it. Likewise, I can't really be arsed holding grudges against people who disagree with me or call me names as a result. Whatever. The scary truth for you is that you probably have more in common with the people you're labelling than you realise. In the interests of being even-handed, I don't think that people have adequately responded to legimate questions you have raised, but then, when 90% of your output is antagonistic nonsense, I find it difficult to blame them either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 C'mon mate - you've pilloried the same people in this very thread for not immediately explaining Kate Hoey's opinions. The EU isn't a left or right issue. France and Germany are both governed by right of centre governments and they're rushing headlong toward further economic and political union. Furthermore, politics isn't the simple assignment of people into left or right camps. Believe it or not, people hold different views on different issues. Fair play - I understand that provocative statements generate replies. Suppose it depends on what you're after really. Do you want people to be aware of your presence or actually engage in an argument? My view is that you've taken the easy route to your own detriment. I really try to judge each post on its merits. Frankly, I lack the time or inclination to dredge up all the shyte people have posted and call them up on it. Likewise, I can't really be arsed holding grudges against people who disagree with me or call me names as a result. Whatever. The scary truth for you is that you probably have more in common with the people you're labelling than you realise. In the interests of being even-handed, I don't think that people have adequately responded to legimate questions you have raised, but then, when 90% of your output is antagonistic nonsense, I find it difficult to blame them either. Continental Europe has a different kind of conservatism to us though. So called Christian Democracy conservatism which involves intermediates and co-operation as opposed to our one nation conservatism which is more centred on fooling the poor from uprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 Continental Europe has a different kind of conservatism to us though. So called Christian Democracy conservatism which involves intermediates and co-operation as opposed to our one nation conservatism which is more centred on fooling the poor from uprising. You're not suggesting 'the poor' are easily 'fooled' are you...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 13 December, 2011 Share Posted 13 December, 2011 You're not suggesting 'the poor' are easily 'fooled' are you...? Conservatism is an elistist ideology... that is fact. It is based around keeping the ruling class in its place and the lower classes in theirs too. Not that the conservative party are actually conservative of course, though they are closest we have to it. I am more post-modernist... there is no one mantra to explain the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Conservatism is an elistist ideology... that is fact. It is based around keeping the ruling class in its place and the lower classes in theirs too. Not that the conservative party are actually conservative of course, though they are closest we have to it. Blair's Labour Party came closest in recent times (given how much the gap between the rich and poor grew during their tenure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Continental Europe has a different kind of conservatism to us though. So called Christian Democracy conservatism which involves intermediates and co-operation as opposed to our one nation conservatism which is more centred on fooling the poor from uprising. Well, they're doing a bang-up job of that. Toxteth riots in the 80s, UK riots this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Well, they're doing a bang-up job of that. Toxteth riots in the 80s, UK riots this year. There are as many reasons to get a bit angry and throw stones at shop windows when Labour are in power as there are when the Tories are in power but "the poor people" bide their time until the Tories are in power so that it gets portrayed as a fight against the "nasty tories" Fact (ish) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 C'mon mate - you've pilloried the same people in this very thread for not immediately explaining Kate Hoey's opinions. The EU isn't a left or right issue. France and Germany are both governed by right of centre governments and they're rushing headlong toward further economic and political union. Furthermore, politics isn't the simple assignment of people into left or right camps. Believe it or not, people hold different views on different issues. Fair play - I understand that provocative statements generate replies. Suppose it depends on what you're after really. Do you want people to be aware of your presence or actually engage in an argument? My view is that you've taken the easy route to your own detriment. I really try to judge each post on its merits. Frankly, I lack the time or inclination to dredge up all the shyte people have posted and call them up on it. Likewise, I can't really be arsed holding grudges against people who disagree with me or call me names as a result. Whatever. The scary truth for you is that you probably have more in common with the people you're labelling than you realise. In the interests of being even-handed, I don't think that people have adequately responded to legimate questions you have raised, but then, when 90% of your output is antagonistic nonsense, I find it difficult to blame them either. Think you are being too kind to him. He is obviously young and foolish as his 'provocative' support of EDL etc suggests - these groups pray on the weak and vulnerable and provide them a nice safe haven amongst the throng - That said he is too obvious that its clear he is just on a wind up most of the time... he should in effect really be restricted to the Muppet show. There are questions he raises as you say that should be debated and it’s interesting to hear the opposing views, but the real interest is in understanding the background to these views - That's how we learn, and it’s that 'evidence' we evaluate and can potentially alter our own opinion - never going to happen with sweeping anti-left clichés and rhetoric. He just proves again and again his naivety and lack of knowledge with his posts be it a failure to understand the makeup of the current 'Britons', or even our recent history. But perhaps most obvious is his inability to appreciate subtlety - sweeping statements that the EU experiment has failed, rather than the reality that certain parts of the EU have failed and certain parts have created wealth, stability and supported the capitalist agenda he is so committed to. You can’t and should not judge such a thing during the current extreme environment because naturally most people will respond to the single issue as Cameron has done - it may turn out to be a masterstroke of genius or a poor decision, I don’t know and nor do 99.999999 % of those with an opinion on it, so the wise decision may have been something less antagonistic and more diplomatic? But again the jingoism and tub thumping celebration is being delivered by those who really dot care about the economic impact (positive or negative) as for them it’s mostly about sovereignty.... and those that are ignorant of the simple fact that the impact is really still open to debate. The second element to all this is of course whether it’s always right to ONLY be concerned with UK PLC - as long as we are better off who cares? No doubt I will be classed as a member of the Looney left liberal elite... again another naive attitude - This is not a political question but a human one - ultimately its the same as other question marks of a global economy and a capitalist system - it’s no longer political but your opinion will ultimately depend on whether who believe it’s right and fair to only think about yourself being able to buy an iPod for £150 because it’s made by folks on less than $2 a day versus having to save and wait to buy one for £800 because it’s made in the UK or US? Having a human approach to this would recognize the VALUE in a global economy and the fact that capitalism has allowed many nations to build an economic future for themselves, but finding a middle ground that is less exploitative - using the same simple IPOD analogy maybe having to pay £400 but knowing it’s made by folks paid a more appropriate wage? Our (Common)wealth was built upon exploitation of nations minerals and resources in exchange for a few schools, legal systems and the clap - but thankfully that is now history, but one we should not forget... Finally, Dune, you keep going on about the 'Liberal Elite' as some kind of Clarksonian insult yet you don’t define it, don’t understand it and lack Clarkson's dry wit to bring it off - you are in effect a mini Clarkson wannabe, only he is paid to be controversial where as you just troll a web forum... You say the liberal elite is 'out of touch with the people' - does that really surprise you or do you need a dictionary to understand the term elite - swap it for 'educated' and you might be closer to the truth. It's a (sad) fact of life that for many people they just don’t have the luxury of time nor had the environment in which they could make the most out of their education. I don’t consider myself above anybody, just lucky that I have the luxury of time and the opportunity to learn.... and continue learning (after all thats what LISTENING to diverse opinion allows you to do - if backed up by evidence rather than infantile rhetoric.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Please don't reply to my posts Frank because I never read what you post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Frank's Cousin - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Please don't reply to my posts Frank because I never read what you post. Afraid you might learn something... I am going to keep replying until I get an intelligent response - I am sure I can Coax one out of you...maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scummer Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 The concerns I have are probably better articulated in this piece by Owen Jones and most defintiely the limitations it will place on countries to adopt a fiscal policy of their (or their electorate's) choosing. The following two paragraphs in the piece spell it out: But that does not mean the left should be applauding the EU treaty. It could hardly be more disastrous for the European left. At a stroke, it effectively abolishes social democratic governments in the eurozone. As Paul mason put it, "by enshrining in national and international law the need for balanced budgets and near-zero structural deficits, the eurozone has outlawed expansionary fiscal policy". Furthermore, all eurozone budgets must be submitted to the unelected European Commission for approval. There will be those who believe that a fiscal stimulus in the current economic climate would be disastrous, and they are entitled to that view. But it is up to the people of Europe to decide at the ballot box. As Economist columnist Baghote points out, it would become "pointless" to vote for a party that advocates "Keynesian stimulus policies or tax cuts". It's difficult to disagree with his understated conclusion: "That feel politically very dodgy to me". Cameron actually pointed that out to Miliband on Monday. The policies Labour have been advocating to deal with the economic crisis would effectively be outlawed if we had signed up. The conservative governments in Germany and France have cleverly pushed the leftist parties out into the cold. Will be interesting to see what happens if Sarkozy were to lose the French presidential election next year. Would a left-leaning president try to wriggle out of this accord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Afraid you might learn something... I am going to keep replying until I get an intelligent response - I am sure I can Coax one out of you...maybe I can cope with a post like this from you. It's the incredibly dull and rambling essays that I will not read. I read one once. I swore then there wouldn't be a second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 From The Economist : http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne "It says much about the dire state of the debate on Europe within Britain's Conservative party that, as Mr Cameron set out to Brussels, another Tory MP portentously invoked the memory of Neville Chamberlain, who infamously came back from Munich with empty assurances from Adolf Hitler. Mr Cameron may have made a grievous mistake with regard to Britain's long-term interest. But at least nobody can accuse him of returning from Brussels with a piece of paper in his hand." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Frank, you do have something worthwhile to say, it just frustrates me that you use 10 words to say it when 1 will suffice... You come across as a wind-bag that makes reasoned comments, if one has the patience for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 From The Economist : http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne "It says much about the dire state of the debate on Europe within Britain's Conservative party that, as Mr Cameron set out to Brussels, another Tory MP portentously invoked the memory of Neville Chamberlain, who infamously came back from Munich with empty assurances from Adolf Hitler. Mr Cameron may have made a grievous mistake with regard to Britain's long-term interest. But at least nobody can accuse him of returning from Brussels with a piece of paper in his hand." Oh, do leave it out. The Euro is falling further apart by the minute. Already a consensus is developing that last weeks' treaty aint going to work. A re-alignement away from the EU is seriously in order now; Europe stands on the verge of turning into an economic wasteland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Europe stands on the verge of turning into an economic wasteland. I'd argue it already is a wasteland. I've seen with my own eyes what has become of Spain. Unemployment is Sky high, building projects abandoned. Our future is increasingly dependent on markets further afield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Ipsos MORI’s monthly political monitor for Reuters is also out. Topline figures there are CON 41%, LAB 39%, LDEM 11%. We have now gone from polls suggesting a Labour majority to hung parliament territory. Things are looking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Blair's Labour Party came closest in recent times (given how much the gap between the rich and poor grew during their tenure) That was deliberate though. The third way don't mind people getting filthy rich and big business as long as they are taxed well to fund big public services and also that the poors living standards also raise, even if not as much. It's Anthony Crosland who first bought that(well, started the change) to socialism with managerialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 C'mon mate - you've pilloried the same people in this very thread for not immediately explaining Kate Hoey's opinions. The EU isn't a left or right issue. France and Germany are both governed by right of centre governments and they're rushing headlong toward further economic and political union. Furthermore, politics isn't the simple assignment of people into left or right camps. Believe it or not, people hold different views on different issues. Fair play - I understand that provocative statements generate replies. Suppose it depends on what you're after really. Do you want people to be aware of your presence or actually engage in an argument? My view is that you've taken the easy route to your own detriment. I really try to judge each post on its merits. Frankly, I lack the time or inclination to dredge up all the shyte people have posted and call them up on it. Likewise, I can't really be arsed holding grudges against people who disagree with me or call me names as a result. Whatever. The scary truth for you is that you probably have more in common with the people you're labelling than you realise. In the interests of being even-handed, I don't think that people have adequately responded to legimate questions you have raised, but then, when 90% of your output is antagonistic nonsense, I find it difficult to blame them either. Great post pap. You win the saintbletch award for debating style. Don't always agree with everything you say but I don't think I've never seen you play the man when the ball was there to be won - (and if I can stretch a football metaphor just a little further) despite often being hacked down by the opposition whenever you get the ball. Think you are being too kind to him. He is obviously young and foolish as his 'provocative' support of EDL etc suggests - these groups pray on the weak and vulnerable and provide them a nice safe haven amongst the throng - That said he is too obvious that its clear he is just on a wind up most of the time... he should in effect really be restricted to the Muppet show. There are questions he raises as you say that should be debated and it’s interesting to hear the opposing views, but the real interest is in understanding the background to these views - That's how we learn, and it’s that 'evidence' we evaluate and can potentially alter our own opinion - never going to happen with sweeping anti-left clichés and rhetoric. He just proves again and again his naivety and lack of knowledge with his posts be it a failure to understand the makeup of the current 'Britons', or even our recent history. But perhaps most obvious is his inability to appreciate subtlety - sweeping statements that the EU experiment has failed, rather than the reality that certain parts of the EU have failed and certain parts have created wealth, stability and supported the capitalist agenda he is so committed to. You can’t and should not judge such a thing during the current extreme environment because naturally most people will respond to the single issue as Cameron has done - it may turn out to be a masterstroke of genius or a poor decision, I don’t know and nor do 99.999999 % of those with an opinion on it, so the wise decision may have been something less antagonistic and more diplomatic? But again the jingoism and tub thumping celebration is being delivered by those who really dot care about the economic impact (positive or negative) as for them it’s mostly about sovereignty.... and those that are ignorant of the simple fact that the impact is really still open to debate. The second element to all this is of course whether it’s always right to ONLY be concerned with UK PLC - as long as we are better off who cares? No doubt I will be classed as a member of the Looney left liberal elite... again another naive attitude - This is not a political question but a human one - ultimately its the same as other question marks of a global economy and a capitalist system - it’s no longer political but your opinion will ultimately depend on whether who believe it’s right and fair to only think about yourself being able to buy an iPod for £150 because it’s made by folks on less than $2 a day versus having to save and wait to buy one for £800 because it’s made in the UK or US? Having a human approach to this would recognize the VALUE in a global economy and the fact that capitalism has allowed many nations to build an economic future for themselves, but finding a middle ground that is less exploitative - using the same simple IPOD analogy maybe having to pay £400 but knowing it’s made by folks paid a more appropriate wage? Our (Common)wealth was built upon exploitation of nations minerals and resources in exchange for a few schools, legal systems and the clap - but thankfully that is now history, but one we should not forget... Finally, Dune, you keep going on about the 'Liberal Elite' as some kind of Clarksonian insult yet you don’t define it, don’t understand it and lack Clarkson's dry wit to bring it off - you are in effect a mini Clarkson wannabe, only he is paid to be controversial where as you just troll a web forum... You say the liberal elite is 'out of touch with the people' - does that really surprise you or do you need a dictionary to understand the term elite - swap it for 'educated' and you might be closer to the truth. It's a (sad) fact of life that for many people they just don’t have the luxury of time nor had the environment in which they could make the most out of their education. I don’t consider myself above anybody, just lucky that I have the luxury of time and the opportunity to learn.... and continue learning (after all thats what LISTENING to diverse opinion allows you to do - if backed up by evidence rather than infantile rhetoric.) Great post Frank's cousin. There is grey in most of these arguments. I tend not to respect people that don't at least recognise that. But as pap says above, I can respect that some play to the gallery and that some are the antagonistic oil that keep the gears of this forum moving. BTW It was worth my £5 membership to read the line in bold above. Nice turn of phrase. This is a complex issue with subtle and perhaps far-reaching implications. I don't think Cameron had much of a choice. I don't think he could have signed the treaty. But that doesn't make those that say he made the right decision, right. At the instant when the opt-outs he had asked for were not forthcoming his decision was the right one. The problem I have is what he did, or didn't do that led up to that moment. We were obviously ally-less at that point. That is poor diplomacy. His management of the process, as well as his perceived interference in Euro zone affairs was ill-judged, and that is what I have an issue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 The second element to all this is of course whether it’s always right to ONLY be concerned with UK PLC - as long as we are better off who cares? No doubt I will be classed as a member of the Looney left liberal elite... again another naive attitude - This is not a political question but a human one - ultimately its the same as other question marks of a global economy and a capitalist system - it’s no longer political but your opinion will ultimately depend on whether who believe it’s right and fair to only think about yourself being able to buy an iPod for £150 because it’s made by folks on less than $2 a day versus having to save and wait to buy one for £800 because it’s made in the UK or US? Having a human approach to this would recognize the VALUE in a global economy and the fact that capitalism has allowed many nations to build an economic future for themselves, but finding a middle ground that is less exploitative - using the same simple IPOD analogy maybe having to pay £400 but knowing it’s made by folks paid a more appropriate wage? Our (Common)wealth was built upon exploitation of nations minerals and resources in exchange for a few schools, legal systems and the clap - but thankfully that is now history, but one we should not forget... The same can be said of the empires of France, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Russia, oh, and Germany (to name a few). We aren't the only ones who've been exploitative. The point above the highlight is interesting and, of course, entirely valid. But i question how many actually accord their actions with their humanitarian beliefs? Not many I bet and on that basis, trumpeting "UK PLC" is, at least, consistent and honest. But there are those who nail their humanitarian (and ecological) colours to the mast to display their moral vigour, but act in ways quite inconsistent with this. I can't speak for Dune, but I know it winds me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 But there are those who nail their humanitarian (and ecological) colours to the mast to display their moral vigour, but act in ways quite inconsistent with this. I certainly agree with that - the world is full of hypocrites. To be honest, we are ALL hypocritical at one time or another, just some more than others. But that is partly down to habit, and the difficulty we have in changing habits. It's one thing to say you want to do something or you're going to do something, but quite a few steps to actually forming a new habit. Having an ideology or belief, but not necessarily following it is ok, if the clear intention is there to make the change in the future. Just be honest about it. But saying things just for effect and having no intention of doing them, that really bugs me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 there are those who nail their humanitarian (and ecological) colours to the mast to display their moral vigour, but act in ways quite inconsistent with this. I can't speak for Dune, but I know it winds me up. I quite agree. Take international aid. I detest the whole concept of giving money to failing nations as it doesn't address the issue of poor governance. Take Rhodesia as an example. It was the bread basket of Africa when it was properly governed under the great Ian Smith, but now it has reverted back to the middle ages. What countries like Rhodesia need is experienced comercial farmers on the land, employing the native people, and producing the food to feed not only them, but to produce a surplus which happened before and could easily happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Special K what is your take on the impending collapse of the Euro and it's effects on the willingness of banks to lend? This is key to my investment strategy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Interesting... InTrade Odds On Euro Collapse By End Of 2012 Now At 50% One can listen to Eurocrats promising the moon and the stars, and that the zEUR0.PK will survive come hell or high water, or one can trade the probability of the Eurozone's breakup based on reality. For those who opt for the latter, they should head over to Intrade where the contract pricing the possibility of "Any country currently using the Euro to announce their intention to drop it midnight ET 31 Dec 2012" is now trading at perfectly even odds or 50%. In other words, the "upside benefit" of the EFSF, the ECB, the IMF and ultimately the Fed have been reduced to coin toss odds. Naturally, if there is a break up in the Eurozone the fallout will be massive and will likely lead to a far worse outcome than the freezing of money markets in the aftermath of the Lehman bankruptcy. In other words, the odds of capitalism surviving for just over a year form now are exactly fifty/fifty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 The same can be said of the empires of France, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Russia, oh, and Germany (to name a few). We aren't the only ones who've been exploitative. And the Romans. What did they ever do for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 At the instant when the opt-outs he had asked for were not forthcoming his decision was the right one. The problem I have is what he did, or didn't do that led up to that moment. We were obviously ally-less at that point. That is poor diplomacy. His management of the process, as well as his perceived interference in Euro zone affairs was ill-judged, and that is what I have an issue with. Yes, very poorly handled. There are some who suspect that he has been manouvered into this by Sarkozy and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 Interesting... InTrade Odds On Euro Collapse By End Of 2012 Now At 50% You gonna put a quid or two on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 14 December, 2011 Share Posted 14 December, 2011 (edited) Our (Common)wealth was built upon exploitation of nations minerals and resources in exchange for a few schools' date=' legal systems and the clap - but thankfully that is now history, but one we should not forget...[/quote'] Frank, it's one thing being long-winded and boring about whether Saints should play 4-4-2 and to be fair, I am like many others that don't get beyond your name on a post, but I made the mistake, this time, to see a rare event. You being concise and making a valid point. The problem is that you are reducing a century of achievement of the British empire to a sentence that pertains to be fact. Any person with a GCSE in history could see it is more complicated than that, but you seem to think that because you post it, it is a fact. A fact you hang your whole left leaning, liberal and wholly redundant political view on. The above statement stands out as a large turd in the midst of a whole pile of boring cr @p and explains why I will never make the mistake of reading a long post from you again.... Edited 14 December, 2011 by Guided Missile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 :lol: "It's not like we're brothers" - David Camerons reply to the nerds comments about coalition division between him and Clegg. David Cameron destroys the lisping geek every single time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 You gonna put a quid or two on that? I've put 30K on it by transfering from equities into corporate bonds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 14 December, 2011 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2011 http://twitter.com/#!/Nigel_Farage/status/146926382134464512 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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