Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 8 hours ago, Matthew Le God said: We could start with Adam and Eve were set a task they could not win. If God is all knowing, then he knew they'd fail before they got the task. Thus it wasn't a fair test and unfair to punish them and humankind for failing. Or... we could talk about the global genocide flood? Or... the murder of first born Egyptian babies? Or... the instructions to keep slaves? Etc etc Your interpretation of the tales of one holy book has been done to death mate. This isn't a bible study thread. If you want a theological discussion, perhaps broaden your horizons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 19 minutes ago, egg said: Your interpretation of the tales of one holy book has been done to death mate. This isn't a bible study thread. If you want a theological discussion, perhaps broaden your horizons. "we could start with" Then repeats exactly the same points he's been banging on about for over a year, ignored the answers he got and bored everyone to death with, What a prat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 2 minutes ago, Turkish said: "we could start with" Then repeats exactly the same points he's been banging on about for over a year, ignored the answers he got and bored everyone to death with, What a prat. I didn't get answers that withstood any level of scrutiny. When questioned on them you resort to petty personal insults! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said: I didn't get answers that withstood any level of scrutiny. When questioned on them you resort to petty personal insults! I think that was more the fact that you're boring as fuck and you did everyones head in with your "level of scrutiny" and your abject inability to comprehend theology. If want answers to the great questions in religion then as i've told you before go to your local mosque, church or synagogue, you wont find them on a football forum, largely because not many people seem to be as obsessed with them as you are. Edited 2 February, 2021 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 19 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: I didn't get answers that withstood any level of scrutiny. When questioned on them you resort to petty personal insults! Translation "people with more understanding than me told me what I didn't want to hear". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: I didn't get answers that withstood any level of scrutiny. When questioned on them you resort to petty personal insults! There are only two answers and neither are particularly plausible. What do you want? an in-person question and answer session with God? Option 1. We and everything in the world were made by a man in the sky. Option 2. The universe used to be the size of a pinhead then it exploded and shattered into billions of pieces. Bacteria which came from nowhere grew on one of the pieces of rock flying at 20,000mph through space. Fish evolved from the bacteria and we evolved from the fish. Make your choices. What you can't say is that believing in one over the other is illogical. Well obvs you can and do but it doesnt make you right and everyone else wrong. Edited 2 February, 2021 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 1 hour ago, buctootim said: There are only two answers and neither are particularly plausible. What do you want? an in-person question and answer session with God? Option 1. We and everything in the world were made by a man in the sky. Option 2. The universe used to be the size of a pinhead then it exploded and shattered into billions of pieces. Bacteria which came from nowhere grew on one of the pieces of rock flying at 20,000mph through space. Fish evolved from the bacteria and we evolved from the fish. Make your choices. What you can't say is that believing in one over the other is illogical. Well obvs you can and do but it doesnt make you right and everyone else wrong. Yes it does. We have proof that it’s option 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: Yes it does. We have proof that it’s option 2. That doesn't alter that the fact that some people believe it's option 2 and are entitled to that opinion. Tim's post also highlights how pointless any "discussion" on the point is. There's 2 options. Take your pick and disagree with someone else's opinion if you really must. If someone believes in the creation theory (entirely different of course to a belief in a god of course) rather than logical science, it makes no difference to anyone else. Indeed, it staggers me that anyone would be interested in whether someone else believes science or creation, God or no God, religion or no religion. Live and let live. Edited 2 February, 2021 by egg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 14 minutes ago, egg said: That doesn't alter that the fact that some people believe it's option 2 and are entitled to that opinion. Tim's post also highlights how pointless any "discussion" on the point is. There's 2 options. Take your pick and disagree with someone else's opinion if you really must. If someone believes in the creation theory (entirely different of course to a belief in a god of course) rather than logical science, it makes no difference to anyone else. Indeed, it staggers me that anyone would be interested in whether someone else believes science or creation, God or no God, religion or no religion. Live and let live. I’m not arguing that people aren’t entitled to their beliefs and opinions. If people choose to belief a magical sky man created the world in seven days, that’s up to them and it’s no skin off my nose. That doesn’t mean that they’re two equal choices and that both are implausible so you might as well flip a coin. One is a myth and violates all known laws of science. The other has been proven to be sound by scientific facts and is agreed upon by the greatest minds in human history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 7 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: I’m not arguing that people aren’t entitled to their beliefs and opinions. If people choose to belief a magical sky man created the world in seven days, that’s up to them and it’s no skin off my nose. That doesn’t mean that they’re two equal choices and that both are implausible so you might as well flip a coin. One is a myth and violates all known laws of science. The other has been proven to be sound by scientific facts and is agreed upon by the greatest minds in human history. Maybe the magical man in the sky created the pinhead the cause the explosion which caused the universe? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 7 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: I’m not arguing that people aren’t entitled to their beliefs and opinions. If people choose to belief a magical sky man created the world in seven days, that’s up to them and it’s no skin off my nose. That doesn’t mean that they’re two equal choices and that both are implausible so you might as well flip a coin. One is a myth and violates all known laws of science. The other has been proven to be sound by scientific facts and is agreed upon by the greatest minds in human history. Big bang theory is just the latest in an ever changing array of theories about where the universe came from. Might hold up over time, might not. Einstein thought his Static Universe theory was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 5 minutes ago, Turkish said: Maybe the magical man in the sky created the pinhead the cause the explosion which caused the universe? Which is just a lazy answer to an infinite regress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 Just now, Lighthouse said: Which is just a lazy answer to an infinite regress. Well the big bang doesn't explain how the matters that exploded got there does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 minutes ago, buctootim said: Big bang theory is just the latest in an ever changing array of theories about where the universe came from. Might hold up over time, might not. Einstein thought his Static Universe theory was correct. If evidence emerged that the Big Bang theory was incorrect (and we are pretty certain that all matter originated from a fixed point in the universe) then scientists would change their mind and be very keen to promote their discovery. Religion people don’t do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 minutes ago, Turkish said: Well the big bang doesn't explain how the matters that exploded got there does it. Exactly. Ask what existed before or why it happened they get very hazy all of a sudden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 2 minutes ago, Turkish said: Well the big bang doesn't explain how the matters that exploded got there does it. No, you are correct, however this doesn’t lend any credibility to any god. Gods are just a stop gap for holes in human knowledge. Thousands of years ago we had gods of the sea, gods of thunder, gods of the mountains, gods of the forest, gods of winter because nobody knew why these things were happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: If evidence emerged that the Big Bang theory was incorrect (and we are pretty certain that all matter originated from a fixed point in the universe) then scientists would change their mind and be very keen to promote their discovery. Religion people don’t do this. Religion changes over time too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 Just now, buctootim said: Exactly. Ask what existed before or why it happened they get very hazy all of a sudden. Which is the correct response to something you don’t know. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. Anyway, I don’t want to turn into MLG. I’m off to get lunch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 22 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: I’m not arguing that people aren’t entitled to their beliefs and opinions. If people choose to belief a magical sky man created the world in seven days, that’s up to them and it’s no skin off my nose. That doesn’t mean that they’re two equal choices and that both are implausible so you might as well flip a coin. One is a myth and violates all known laws of science. The other has been proven to be sound by scientific facts and is agreed upon by the greatest minds in human history. What difference does it make to you or anyone else if someone believes in the creation theory? You say its no skin off your nose, but you've stepped into the thread and made a point quite forcefully which suggests it does matter to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 12 minutes ago, buctootim said: Big bang theory is just the latest in an ever changing array of theories about where the universe came from. Might hold up over time, might not. Einstein thought his Static Universe theory was correct. Indeed. He also said, and I paraphrase, that coincidences are calling cards from God. One of the greatest ever scientific minds with a belief in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 1 minute ago, buctootim said: Religion changes over time too Yes, they fudge it loosely around science so that it remains credible. It’s pretty hard to convince people that we have to worship the sun in order for it to rise tomorrow morning in the year 2021. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Turkish said: Well the big bang doesn't explain how the matters that exploded got there does it. 3 hours ago, buctootim said: Exactly. Ask what existed before or why it happened they get very hazy all of a sudden. Why is 'I don't know' an unacceptable answer to you both? It is more sensible to say you don't know than make up an answer. The way to find truth is to admit you don't know and then search for evidence. Not to make up an answer. 'God did it' isn't even a proper answer. It is answering one mystery with another mystery. Edited 2 February, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 hours ago, buctootim said: Religion changes over time too If they cherry pick from scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Turkish said: Well the big bang doesn't explain how the matters that exploded got there does it. Making up a reason using a God of the gaps fallacy does not get you to the truth either. Edited 2 February, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 hours ago, buctootim said: Exactly. Ask what existed before or why it happened they get very hazy all of a sudden. That is nonsensical. Existence is temporal, so nothing existed 'before time'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 hours ago, egg said: What difference does it make to you or anyone else if someone believes in the creation theory? You say its no skin off your nose, but you've stepped into the thread and made a point quite forcefully which suggests it does matter to you. Creation theory is not a theory in the scientific definition. A scientific theory is the explanation of something using demonstrable and repeatable evidence. Theory is also used as a word for a random guess. But that is different from what a scientific theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, egg said: Translation "people with more understanding than me told me what I didn't want to hear". Let's take one of them... I claim the story of the global flood was a genocide by an evil God. The answer I got here was that the people God killed were not humans. That is nonsense with no evidence to support it. Also so what if they weren't human? Killing them all in a flood is still an evil act and still genocide. The arguments against my other points were just as bizarre. Edited 2 February, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lighthouse said: Which is the correct response to something you don’t know. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. Anyway, I don’t want to turn into MLG. I’m off to get lunch. Edited 2 February, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 hours ago, Turkish said: Maybe the magical man in the sky created the pinhead the cause the explosion which caused the universe? You'd need evidence to support that before it was rational to believe it. Do you have some? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 hours ago, buctootim said: Religion changes over time too 1) Such as? 2) What brought about the change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 4 hours ago, egg said: If someone believes in the creation theory (entirely different of course to a belief in a god of course) rather than logical science, it makes no difference to anyone else. Indeed, it staggers me that anyone would be interested in whether someone else believes science or creation, God or no God, religion or no religion. Live and let live. - Beliefs impact actions - Actions impact people Irrational beliefs cause harm to society. That is why you should care. You should want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. Science is the path to doing that, not religion which claims without evidence it already has the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 3 hours ago, buctootim said: Big bang theory is just the latest in an ever changing array of theories about where the universe came from. Might hold up over time, might not. Einstein thought his Static Universe theory was correct. Scientific theories are based on demonstrable, testable, repeatable evidence. They are the highest point in science. Religious theories are a different usage of the word theory, a colloquial 'guess'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 6 hours ago, buctootim said: There are only two answers and neither are particularly plausible. What do you want? an in-person question and answer session with God? Option 1. We and everything in the world were made by a man in the sky. Option 2. The universe used to be the size of a pinhead then it exploded and shattered into billions of pieces. Bacteria which came from nowhere grew on one of the pieces of rock flying at 20,000mph through space. Fish evolved from the bacteria and we evolved from the fish. Make your choices. What you can't say is that believing in one over the other is illogical. Well obvs you can and do but it doesnt make you right and everyone else wrong. 1) Your description of option 2 is not accurate. 2) What method have you used to determine plausibility? 3) Why have you ruled in a man in the sky being an option, but not a flying spaghetti monster or various other answers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 7 hours ago, Turkish said: I think that was more the fact that you're boring as fuck and you did everyones head in with your "level of scrutiny" and your abject inability to comprehend theology. If want answers to the great questions in religion then as i've told you before go to your local mosque, church or synagogue, you wont find them on a football forum, largely because not many people seem to be as obsessed with them as you are. Claim - global flood that killed everyone apart from one small group was an evil genocide Answer I got - they weren't human so it isn't evil to kill them all You honestly think that is a valid counter argument? 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 20 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: You'd need evidence to support that before it was rational to believe it. Do you have some? It was a suggestion, hence the word "maybe" at the start of the sentence. It's not hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 7 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Claim - global flood that killed everyone apart from one small group was an evil genocide Answer I got - they weren't human so it isn't evil to kill them all You honestly think that is a valid counter argument? 🙄 That wasn't the answer you got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 33 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: That is nonsensical. Existence is temporal, so nothing existed 'before time'. When did time start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 Just now, Turkish said: It was a suggestion, hence the word "maybe" at the start of the sentence. It's not hard. For something to be a 'maybe' also requires evidence that it is even remotely plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 Just now, Turkish said: That wasn't the answer you got. It was an answer I got. What is your answer then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: When did time start? I don't know. You appear to have an issue with I don't know as an answer. But saying I don't know is better than making up an answer without evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: It was an answer I got. What is your answer then? I've already given it, over a year ago i think. It's not my fault you cant grasp it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: I don't know. You appear to have an issue with I don't know as an answer. But saying I don't know is better than making up an answer without evidence. that's not what you said just now. 3 minutes ago, Turkish said: Existence is temporal, so nothing existed 'before time'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 Just now, Turkish said: that's not what you said just now. Where in that post did I say when time started? 🙄 You appear to read different things from my words! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 2 minutes ago, Turkish said: I've already given it, over a year ago i think. It's not my fault you cant grasp it. Remind me how you wriggle out of a global flood not being genocide. I can't remember every post of yours from over a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Where in that post did I say when time started? 🙄 You appear to read different things from my words! You said nothing existed before time, then you said you didn't know. So which one is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: Remind me how you wriggle out of a global flood not being genocide. I can't remember every post of yours from over a year ago. I didn't wriggle out of it, I and others gave you a response you didn't like and you avoided the subject for a few weeks, then started going on about it again claiming no one had given you any evidence, which is your usual tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: You said nothing existed before time, then you said you didn't know. So which one is it? The question I was replying to was 'When did time start?'. I said I don't know. Saying nothing can exist before time as existence by definition is temporal is not an answer that says when time started. Not sure how you have managed to conflate that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: I didn't wriggle out of it, I and others gave you a response you didn't like and you avoided the subject for a few weeks, then started going on about it again claiming no one had given you any evidence, which is your usual tactic. Why aren't you reminding me of you excuse for the evil genocidal flood creating God? That is wriggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 2 February, 2021 Share Posted 2 February, 2021 1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said: Creation theory is not a theory in the scientific definition. A scientific theory is the explanation of something using demonstrable and repeatable evidence. Theory is also used as a word for a random guess. But that is different from what a scientific theory. I'm not sure where this has come from. There are competing theories about the creation of earth. They're not theories I'm discussing - I believe in the scientific big bang for what it's worth, although the source of what went bang needs explaining. If other people subscribe to the alternative non scientific creation theory, good luck to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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