All the prat has to do is play his wide men hugging the touchlines, & 2 banks of four

[derry]

He doesnt have to work harder FFS. He has to do the bloody job better. We are the most narrow team in the league attacking and the most wide open in defence. because of it.

 

All the prat has to do is copy the basic Man Utd system, Two banks of four, wide men on the touchline, when on the ball wide, reinforce with the full back and striker/midfielder, the other winger doesn't get sucked in but targets the back corner of the penalty box/outside far post, outflanking the defence as it is pulled across.

 

It's not rocket science, it's not Dutch powderpuff crap either. The other important thing when the move breaks down, the nearest front men try and block the defenders breaking and everybody else busts a gut to get goalside and cover. We do the strolling back bit well the rest we don't do at all.

 

If we did that I guarantee we would be a pretty difficult team to beat.

[bungle]

If there was only one way to play football (as you imply), it would be a pretty pointless sport and no-one would watch.

[derry]

If there was only one way to play football (as you imply), it would be a pretty pointless sport and no-one would watch.

 

Any prat can be destructive, we need something better than we've got, simple enough to be successful, Man Utd keep it simple, albeit with good players, we need to keep it simple with ordinary players.

 

I've seen about twenty matches this season and it is the same problem week in, week out. If we solve that problem and are more dynamic in delaying the opposition and getting goalside we will be a much better team.

[bungle]

Any prat can be destructive, we need something better than we've got, simple enough to be successful, Man Utd keep it simple, albeit with good players, we need to keep it simple with ordinary players.

 

I've seen about twenty matches this season and it is the same problem week in, week out. If we solve that problem and are more dynamic in delaying the opposition and getting goalside we will be a much better team.

 

It's funny, though, because I watched a Liverpool side playing 4-4-2 for most of the match look decidely crap against an Everton team playing 4-2-3-1 and their 1 wasn't even a striker.

[derry]

At the moment it shouldnt be difficult to pick the team. Has to be 2 up as we have DMG and Saga and we need them to gel if we're to do anything.

 

Holmes must play left wing, no brainer, yet he played right wing last time.

 

Morgan must play central. Someone stronger than Surman must play with him.

 

That leaves Surman fighting for right wing IMO, which was actually his position during his brightest spell in the playoff season. Either him or McLaggon IMO.

 

Two up or one + one in close support provided there is two banks of four makes little difference. However it has to be natural sided players wide, Surman would always check inside with no option to go down the line, that's what needs sorting. Agree with the rest.

[Scudamore]

It's funny, though, because I watched a Liverpool side playing 4-4-2 for most of the match look decidely crap against an Everton team playing 4-2-3-1 and their 1 wasn't even a striker.

 

And Man U the shining beacon of 4-4-2 apparently...have used 4-3-3 countless times over the last few seasons...

 

Criticism could be levelled that where they are versatile to use both systems Jan seems very reluctant to change style...but that's a different matter...

[derry]

It's funny, though, because I watched a Liverpool side playing 4-4-2 for most of the match look decidely crap against an Everton team playing 4-2-3-1 and their 1 wasn't even a striker.

 

I think you are missing the point, it's not the formation per se, it's the way the team play. At the moment we are narrow, that gives us a problem in attack, we can't stretch defences, and a problem in defence, space behind James especially that is exploited.

 

It's horses for courses, we have to get results, this is a variation on our present formation but gives the thing we don't have at the moment, width and penetration in attack and cover and depth in defence.

[Window Cleaner]

Two up or one + one in close support provided there is two banks of four makes little difference. However it has to be natural sided players wide, Surman would always check inside with no option to go down the line, that's what needs sorting. Agree with the rest.

 

We'll be without Surman at Norwich, we shall see how it pans out without him. Perhaps give Skacel a chance in midfield.Surman is a decent player but seems to have slipped away a bit of late.

[derry]

And Man U the shining beacon of 4-4-2 apparently...have used 4-3-3 countless times over the last few seasons...

 

Criticism could be levelled that where they are versatile to use both systems Jan seems very reluctant to change style...but that's a different matter...

 

For sure, Man Utd is an example but they are so fluid and versatile we couldn't hope to replicate them, but we can learn the lesson of width over narrow, delay from the front and busting a gut to get back.

 

Men on the far post and Utd do it better than anyone, rather than everybody in a melee outnumbered and blocked on the near post and nobody coming in unmarked on the far post.

[derry]

We'll be without Surman at Norwich, we shall see how it pans out without him. Perhaps give Skacel a chance in midfield.Surman is a decent player but seems to have slipped away a bit of late.

 

I would like to see that myself, but it may well be Gillett and Schneiderlin with Skacel at left back.

[Weston Saint]

One major problem, our young players lack fitness and stamina. It was reported on here a week or so ago that Bournemouth were shocked at Jake Thomsons lack of fitness. I am hearing the same from other sources. They are not doing much if any stamina training. Watch the players after about 70 minutes. If they have been working hard in the team they are knackered.

 

If they are knackered physically then they cannot be mentally alert. It would explain a lot.

[bungle]

One major problem, our young players lack fitness and stamina. It was reported on here a week or so ago that Bournemouth were shocked at Jake Thomsons lack of fitness. I am hearing the same from other sources. They are not doing much if any stamina training. Watch the players after about 70 minutes. If they have been working hard in the team they are knackered.

 

If they are knackered physically then they cannot be mentally alert. It would explain a lot.

 

Is that why having to chase the ball at lot at Barnsley we were able to score a goal with just more than 10 minutes to go and then defend well to hold on to win?

[david in sweden]

At the moment it shouldnt be difficult to pick the team. Has to be 2 up as we have DMG and Saga and we need them to gel if we're to do anything.

Holmes must play left wing, no brainer, yet he played right wing last time.

Morgan must play central. Someone stronger than Surman must play with him.

That leaves Surman fighting for right wing IMO, which was actually his position during his brightest spell in the playoff season. Either him or McLaggon IMO.

 

 

It all look easy on paper doesn't it.Speaking of which, I'm almost at the end of Constant Paine, and what a good read it is! It is of course, or much of it at least, about Terry Paine's fantastic ability to deliver a cross into the near post and the strikers knew exactly where to run without looking, so accurate was the Paine centres.

 

It's easy to blame our strikers for the lack of goals (who else is there ?) but a lot of THEIR success is down to the service they get. Ron Davies admits he was only an average striker when he joined Saints in 1966, but TP's service gave him so many opportunities to score and he ended up beating JImmy Greaves and Geoff Hurst as leading scorer that season. Even after he was dumped by Lawrie Mac (aged 35) he continued at Hereford and got them promoted by way of the huge goal tally by the almost legendary Dixie McNeil (who was leading scorer in the whole country that season)

 

WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THAT ? Old tactics but maybe it just might work...TP says two wingers are a real luxury that no team can afford to play without wingers all. There is no-one to take on defenders and it's down to the long ball up the middle. Surman, or Smith, or Lallana or SOMEONE has to play wide, run at defenders and know how to centre to the near post. As long as McG and Saga can get in the box we're surely get better results than we do know.

The real problem is ; everyone likes attactive football and Saints have tried to play that for much of the last 50 years, but the truth is without a few hard men in the defence and a midfielder with a tough attitude; Gabriel, O'Neil, Fisher, Case or Mazza...our Academy Lads don't stand a chance against some of the bully-boy teams in the CCC.

 

The thing that is most against JP's success is that he doesn't understand the tactics/ problems of the division we're in. I like his style of play (there's not enough of it-barely 45 mins. at a time) but it's more suited to the Prem.style and not the tough weekly slogging matches we've had this season so far. Back to basics. One fast winger , playing wide and good centres into the box. If we can't score from that - maybe we don't deserve to be here anyway.

Edited 21 January, 2009 by david in sweden

[derry]

One major problem, our young players lack fitness and stamina. It was reported on here a week or so ago that Bournemouth were shocked at Jake Thomsons lack of fitness. I am hearing the same from other sources. They are not doing much if any stamina training. Watch the players after about 70 minutes. If they have been working hard in the team they are knackered.

 

If they are knackered physically then they cannot be mentally alert. It would explain a lot.

 

That's maybe the place where they have to work twice as hard. I've always maintained that fitness buys you the right to compete, and if you compete well enough, that buys you the right to play your football against a tiring side.

[Alanh]

He doesnt have to work harder FFS. He has to do the bloody job better. We are the most narrow team in the league attacking and the most wide open in defence. because of it.

 

All the prat has to do is copy the basic Man Utd system, Two banks of four, wide men on the touchline, when on the ball wide, reinforce with the full back and striker/midfielder, the other winger doesn't get sucked in but targets the back corner of the penalty box/outside far post, outflanking the defence as it is pulled across.

 

It's not rocket science, it's not Dutch powderpuff crap either. The other important thing when the move breaks down, the nearest front men try and block the defenders breaking and everybody else busts a gut to get goalside and cover. We do the strolling back bit well the rest we don't do at all.

 

If we did that I guarantee we would be a pretty difficult team to beat.

 

I kind of agree with you and think what you are saying is that the team needs to be more organised and disciplined in where they play. For the me most frustrating thing is seeing them lose their shape at some point every match resulting in any organised opposition being able to get straight through to our exposed defence.

 

I don't have a problem with the formation that JP wants to play and I genuinely thing we've got the talent in the squad to be more successful that we have been this season, but at the moment there is too little organisation when they are on the pitch.

[derry]

It all look easy on paper doesn't it.Speaking of which, I'm almost at the end of Constant Paine, and what a good read it is! It is of course, or much of it at least, about Terry Paine's fantastic ability to deliver a cross into the near post and the strikers knew exactly where to run without looking, so accurate was the Paine centres.

 

It's easy to blame our strikers for the lack of goals (who else is there ?) but a lot of THEIR success is down to the service they get. Ron Davies admits he was only an average striker when he joined Saints in 1966, but TP's servive gave him so many opportunities to score and he ended up beating JImmy Greaves and Geoff Hurst as leading scorer that season. Even after he was dumped by Lawrie Mac (aged 35) he continued at Hereford and got them promoted by way of the huge goal tally by Dixie McNeil (who was leading scorer in the whole country.)

 

WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THAT ? Old tactics but maybe it just might work...TP says two wingers are a real luxury that no team can afford to play now, but without wingers all, there is no-one to take on defenders and it's down to the long ball up the middle. Surman, or Smith, or Lallana or SOMEONE has to play wide, run at defenders and know how to centre to the near post. As long as McG and Saga can get in the box we're surely get better results than we do know.

The real problem is ; everyone likes attactive football and Saints have tried to play that for much of the last 50 years, but the truth is without a few hard men in the defence and a midfielder with a tough attitude; Gabriel, O'Neil, Fisher, Case or Mazza...our Academy Lads don't stand a chance against some of the bully-boy teams in the CCC.

 

The thing that is most against JP's success is that he doesn't understand the tactics/ problems of the division we're in. I like his style of play (there's not enough of it-barely 45 mins. at a time) but it's more suited to the Prem.style and not the tough weekly slogging matches we've had this season so far. Back to basics. One fast winger , playing wide and good centres into the box. If we can't score from that - maybe we don't deserve to be here anyway.

 

Two wingers wide, by tracking back help the full backs defend, it reduces the space for the opposition to break.

 

TP and JS put a lot of crosses hanging up on the far post, Ron got a lot of goals from the a line joining the back corner of the penalty area (where he started his run in ) with the far post. We don't have anybody in that area, when the ball misses the middle out, there is nobody there.

[SaintRobbie]

He doesnt have to work harder FFS. He has to do the bloody job better. We are the most narrow team in the league attacking and the most wide open in defence. because of it.

 

All the prat has to do is copy the basic Man Utd system, Two banks of four, wide men on the touchline, when on the ball wide, reinforce with the full back and striker/midfielder, the other winger doesn't get sucked in but targets the back corner of the penalty box/outside far post, outflanking the defence as it is pulled across.

 

It's not rocket science, it's not Dutch powderpuff crap either. The other important thing when the move breaks down, the nearest front men try and block the defenders breaking and everybody else busts a gut to get goalside and cover. We do the strolling back bit well the rest we don't do at all.

 

If we did that I guarantee we would be a pretty difficult team to beat.

 

I think we need a simpler system and more consistent team selection from a new more inspirational MANAGER who does not have to implement Lowe's policies.

 

That'll do for me. But we need him NOW.

[david in sweden]

Two wingers wide, by tracking back help the full backs defend, it reduces the space for the opposition to break.

 

TP and JS put a lot of crosses hanging up on the far post, Ron got a lot of goals from the a line joining the back corner of the penalty area (where he started his run in ) with the far post. We don't have anybody in that area, when the ball misses the middle out, there is nobody there.

 

 

Absolutely, I've spent many frustrating years watching crosses go by the far post with no-one in sight. The rare exception was Alan Shearer (in his later career,) who could always pop up inside the 6 yard box at the far post, which was inevitably unguarded and as easy pickings for a goal poacher.

[Wade Garrett]

Our major failing is that we haven't got the players. All this talk about systems is a bit of a red herring for me.

[derry]

I kind of agree with you and think what you are saying is that the team needs to be more organised and disciplined in where they play. For the me most frustrating thing is seeing them lose their shape at some point every match resulting in any organised opposition being able to get straight through to our exposed defence.

 

I don't have a problem with the formation that JP wants to play and I genuinely thing we've got the talent in the squad to be more successful that we have been this season, but at the moment there is too little organisation when they are on the pitch.

 

Precisely, I'm just simplifying it, his 4 backs, 2 not so wide men, 2 CM, then 1/1 is pretty much it, except the wide men have to play wide attacking, delay and track back aggressively.

 

The area outside the opponents far post is targeted, by the idle winger loitering back for an unmarked/un noticed blindside run attacking the overhit ball/far post.

[Frank's cousin]

Derry is spot on.

 

When we were last successful? 2003? Mazza and bridge providing width on the left, Dodds and Various on right - getting to the byline, overlapping and strong crosses for beatts + an other - width opening defences home and away - OK we aint got that quality now, but this is basic method of creatin space.

[derry]

Our major failing is that we haven't got the players. All this talk about systems is a bit of a red herring for me.

 

It's not systems, it's using the full width, and stopping the opposition when moves break down.

[derry]

I think we need a simpler system and more consistent team selection from a new more inspirational MANAGER who does not have to implement Lowe's policies.

 

That'll do for me. But we need him NOW.

 

Agreed. As Lowe won't do this, in the meantime we need to do better and play more efficiently.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

I'd like to see a system where we cross the ball into the area and have players in goal scoring positions to get on the end of passes/crosses etc.

I remember Strachan saying football was quite simple when we had the likes of Fernandes, Bridge, Marsden and Telfer crossing balls into the area for Beattie etc to score from.

[derry]

I'd like to see a system where we cross the ball into the area and have players in goal scoring positions to get on the end of passes/crosses etc.

I remember Strachan saying football was quite simple when we had the likes of Fernandes, Bridge, Marsden and Telfer crossing balls into the area for Beattie etc to score from.

 

The end result, of what I said.

[saint1977]

Derry is spot on.

 

When we were last successful? 2003? Mazza and bridge providing width on the left, Dodds and Various on right - getting to the byline, overlapping and strong crosses for beatts + an other - width opening defences home and away - OK we aint got that quality now, but this is basic method of creatin space.

 

The best Soton sides have all had good width, we have been so narrow this season it's untrue. The only players (with the odd exception from DMG) that has tried to get wide and put a decent cross in are Holmes and to an extent Skacel. James might do the same on the right if we actually bought a proper professional RB behind him. James will be good RM but everyone bar JP can see he is not a RB.

[Window Cleaner]

I'd like to see a system where we cross the ball into the area and have players in goal scoring positions to get on the end of passes/crosses etc.

I remember Strachan saying football was quite simple when we had the likes of Fernandes, Bridge, Marsden and Telfer crossing balls into the area for Beattie etc to score from.

 

Hmmm; but we hadn't unwrapped the begging bowl in those days.

Guys, we have no money we've just got to muddle through with what we have and hope it pans out in our favour.

 

This is the scenario: You're down at Sainsbury's and you fancy a nice T-Bone steak, you know it's good right, lovely with a bit of Bearnaise Sauce and a few Duchesse potatos, but your bank manager sent you a letter yesterday saying that if you spent any more than 1.23£ this month he'd take your chequebook and payment card away. So you have to settle for a packet of crisps and some faggots.

[derry]

Hmmm; but we hadn't unwrapped the begging bowl in those days.

Guys, we have no money we've just got to muddle through with what we have and hope it pans out in our favour.

 

This is the scenario: You're down at Sainsbury's and you fancy a nice T-Bone steak, you know it's good right, lovely with a bit of Bearnaise Sauce and a few Duchesse potatos, but your bank manager sent you a letter yesterday saying that if you spent any more than 1.23£ this month he'd take your chequebook and payment card away. So you have to settle for a packet of crisps and some faggots.

 

Quite so, and now the faggots have to play wide, hit the byeline, get in crosses, and everybody has to bust a gut and cut out the strolling back.

[Wade Garrett]

It's not systems, it's using the full width, and stopping the opposition when moves break down.

 

Holmes is OK, at least he tries to beat his man and get to the byeline. But who have we got that gets on the end of crosses, or makes the near post run? Answer, no-one.

 

We just haven't got the players.

[Frank's cousin]

Hmmm; but we hadn't unwrapped the begging bowl in those days.

Guys, we have no money we've just got to muddle through with what we have and hope it pans out in our favour.

 

This is the scenario: You're down at Sainsbury's and you fancy a nice T-Bone steak, you know it's good right, lovely with a bit of Bearnaise Sauce and a few Duchesse potatos, but your bank manager sent you a letter yesterday saying that if you spent any more than 1.23£ this month he'd take your chequebook and payment card away. So you have to settle for a packet of crisps and some faggots.

 

Like it... but I guess what Derry is alluding to, is that you ahve a choice, you can either eat your faggots plain - or with some imagination, an onion, stock cube, bit of seasoning you can bet a better result!

[Window Cleaner]

Like it... but I guess what Derry is alluding to' date=' is that you ahve a choice, you can either eat your faggots plain - or with some imagination, an onion, stock cube, bit of seasoning you can bet a better result![/quote']

 

Nah, they taste like ****e whatever you put on them.

[Wes Tender]

And Man U the shining beacon of 4-4-2 apparently...have used 4-3-3 countless times over the last few seasons...

 

Criticism could be levelled that where they are versatile to use both systems Jan seems very reluctant to change style...but that's a different matter...

 

The crux of the matter. We are so one dimensional that any rival manager worth his salt either studies videos of our past few matches and formulates a plan to negate any strengths we might have, or as has often happened, we are good in the first half and the rival manager is savvy enough to make tactical changes to counter our strengths and exploit our weaknesses in the second half.

 

JP doesn't seem to have the tactical nous to make those strategic changes.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Hmmm; but we hadn't unwrapped the begging bowl in those days.

Guys, we have no money we've just got to muddle through with what we have and hope it pans out in our favour.

 

This is the scenario: You're down at Sainsbury's and you fancy a nice T-Bone steak, you know it's good right, lovely with a bit of Bearnaise Sauce and a few Duchesse potatos, but your bank manager sent you a letter yesterday saying that if you spent any more than 1.23£ this month he'd take your chequebook and payment card away. So you have to settle for a packet of crisps and some faggots.

Remind me how much those players i mentioned cost? We could get in some experienced players in on loan or better players from lower divisions than we have got right now and someone to teach them to do the things i mentioned.

[Window Cleaner]

Remind me how much those players i mentioned cost? We could get in some experienced players in on loan or better players from lower divisions than we have got right now and someone to teach them to do the things i mentioned.

 

But we can't pay them. That's the problem. Whilst we have Euell,Skacel and Thomas hanging around for a Kings Ransom we have nothing,zero,zilch,nada whatever you want to call it. If we could afford better players we wouldn't have loaned out the ones we do own.We pay kids a couple of rupees a week.

We employ players from sale bins in the bargain basement. I would think your average CCC player asks about 4K a week, we are paying about 500£ or so.

Schneiderlin didn't cost very much until he make xx first team game and gets some France U21 caps. Strasbourg HAD to sell him because they were 6 million euros up the swanee and they don't mess about with that in France. If you can't balance your budget you can get relegated in the blink of an eye.Theyb sold whatever wasn't nailed down for whatever they could get-even on the never never, as long as we'd agreed to pay them a certain sum within the period of their annual budgetthey were OK with that. The rest of our signings are just freebies and give-aways.

[derry]

Holmes is OK, at least he tries to beat his man and get to the byeline. But who have we got that gets on the end of crosses, or makes the near post run? Answer, no-one.

 

We just haven't got the players.

 

We have, but they don't discipline themselves to do the job, Lallana, McLaggon, BWP, James, I'm not sure whether Smith is natural right/left, could all make a go of the right side, Holmes is fine, but Skacel could do a good job as well. Probably Smith, but it's how they play that counts.

[derry]

But we can't pay them. That's the problem. Whilst we have Euell,Skacel and Thomas hanging around for a Kings Ransom we have nothing,zero,zilch,nada whatever you want to call it. If we could afford better players we wouldn't have loaned out the ones we do own.We pay kids a couple of rupees a week.

We employ players from sale bins in the bargain basement. I would think your average CCC player asks about 4K a week, we are paying about 500£ or so.

Schneiderlin didn't cost very much until he make xx first team game and gets some France U21 caps. Strasbourg HAD to sell him because they were 6 million euros up the swanee and they don't mess about with that in France. If you can't balance your budget you can get relegated in the blink of an eye.Theyb sold whatever wasn't nailed down for whatever they could get-even on the never never, as long as we'd agreed to pay them a certain sum within the period of their annual budgetthey were OK with that. The rest of our signings are just freebies and give-aways.

 

I'm really only interested in using the squad we have and getting the best out of them. Outside players would be great but I'm only talking about where we are at, at this moment.

[david in sweden]

One major problem, our young players lack fitness and stamina. It was reported on here a week or so ago that Bournemouth were shocked at Jake Thomsons lack of fitness. I am hearing the same from other sources. They are not doing much if any stamina training. Watch the players after about 70 minutes. If they have been working hard in the team they are knackered.

 

If they are knackered physically then they cannot be mentally alert. It would explain a lot.

 

 

Absolutely right, but if you consider those we're playing, at least half-a-dozen were Academy regulars last season, playing around 20 games a season and maybe getting a place on the Reserve bench - if they were lucky.

SUDDENLY..they are playing two matches a week, and faced with a 46 match season, they can hardly be expected to perform in the same way every match, especailly against some of the bully boy teams in this league.

 

It's just gonna take time, and we don't have too much of that. and worse

IF JP goes, ay new manager will expect them to convert to another system

and have to use players who aren't suitable.

Another " Pearson " would bring in journeymen and 30-plussers and the lads would all go back to the Academy.

[70's Mike]

Absolutely right, but if you consider those we're playing, at least half-a-dozen were Academy regulars last season, playing around 20 games a season and maybe getting a place on the Reserve bench - if they were lucky.

SUDDENLY..they are playing two matches a week, and faced with a 46 match season, they can hardly be expected to perform in the same way every match, especailly against some of the bully boy teams in this league.

 

It's just gonna take time, and we don't have too much of that. and worse

IF JP goes, ay new manager will expect them to convert to another system

and have to use players who aren't suitable.

Another " Pearson " would bring in journeymen and 30-plussers and the lads would all go back to the Academy.

 

 

of saturdays starting 11 only James and DMG could claim to have played for the academy last year.

are lack of fitness is down to the training methods and lack of understanding of the ccc

 

Virtually none would go back to the academy , they are to old

[derry]

Bloody amazing in the Echo tonight, two double pages and everybody talking about Lowe/Portvliet and nobody talking about football.

[david in sweden]

of saturdays starting 11 only James and DMG could claim to have played for the academy last year.

are lack of fitness is down to the training methods and lack of understanding of the ccc

 

Virtually none would go back to the academy , they are to old

 

 

Yes of course, Mike

but looking at some of the sides we've put out during the Autumn there were a lot of " former " Academy lads used this season. However, my point was that (unlike) many other CCC players last seasons Academy lads weren't used to playing many games each season, and not anywhere this level. Not even Reserve football -but youth team football.