Cost of Living

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, RedArmy said:

Yet apparently Trump is an idiot and a bad man for wanting to use tariffs to eventually replace income tax in America so that people actually get to keep the money they earn. 

Tariffs don’t raise any government income from domestic transactions.

[Gloucester Saint]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Making reasonable and sensible steps over a good period of time in order to lessen our reliance on fossil fuels sounds like a good thing to do. That isn't what we are doing though is it and that's a strategic reason for doing it and has nothing to do with saving the planet or prevent extreme climate change which are the stated reasons given. 

Maybe they need to re-frame it? It’s what I’d do. 

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Yep. We bought a diesel car that was so 'clean' the road tax was free (and still is)but attracts the ULEZ fee. Make it make sense. 

Our diesel is ULEZ exempt. Makes no sense at all.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

And don’t even think about breathing.

Asthma inhalers are subject to prescription charges.

[ecuk268]

28 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Asthma inhalers are subject to prescription charges.

If you've got chronic asthma you are exempt.

[Whitey Grandad]

12 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

If you've got chronic asthma you are exempt.

I’ve just developed a nasty cough.

[whelk]

Water bill has literally fucking doubled this month onwards. Great to see privatisation working so well

[Turkish]

Maybe there is a nod back here to the is life really all that thread - which we all mocked years ago 

the more you earn and better you do the more they want - every year despite having always been PAYE I have to do a tax return it never goes in my favour and I always owe more 

i pay 40% in a good year some time 45% of my wage in tax plus a compulsory tax on my pension which they insist I now pay toward. I live in a house now where the council tax is more than double where we previously lived 

all in all is it really worth even aspiring to be successful in this day and age? It certainly seems doing fuck all with out the pressure of a job is a much better world than actually working for a living and trying to better yourself and they fuck you

[egg]

12 hours ago, Turkish said:

Maybe there is a nod back here to the is life really all that thread - which we all mocked years ago 

the more you earn and better you do the more they want - every year despite having always been PAYE I have to do a tax return it never goes in my favour and I always owe more 

i pay 40% in a good year some time 45% of my wage in tax plus a compulsory tax on my pension which they insist I now pay toward. I live in a house now where the council tax is more than double where we previously lived 

all in all is it really worth even aspiring to be successful in this day and age? It certainly seems doing fuck all with out the pressure of a job is a much better world than actually working for a living and trying to better yourself and they fuck you

The more you earn, the more you pay. That's how society should be imo. Do I want to pay as much tax as I do? Of course I don't. Do I accept that I should, can, and be grateful that I'm doing better than most? Yes. 

[skintsaint]

12 hours ago, Turkish said:

It certainly seems doing fuck all with out the pressure of a job is a much better world than actually working for a living and trying to better yourself and they fuck you

It's pretty grim on the rock n roll.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, egg said:

The more you earn, the more you pay. That's how society should be imo. Do I want to pay as much tax as I do? Of course I don't. Do I accept that I should, can, and be grateful that I'm doing better than most? Yes. 

That's true even with a flat tax rate be it 20% or 40%. The problem is that we have a progressive system where the marginal rate gets progressively higher. It's almost as though they don't want you to work hard and make something of yourself.

[Whitey Grandad]

13 hours ago, Turkish said:

Maybe there is a nod back here to the is life really all that thread - which we all mocked years ago 

the more you earn and better you do the more they want - every year despite having always been PAYE I have to do a tax return it never goes in my favour and I always owe more 

i pay 40% in a good year some time 45% of my wage in tax plus a compulsory tax on my pension which they insist I now pay toward. I live in a house now where the council tax is more than double where we previously lived 

all in all is it really worth even aspiring to be successful in this day and age? It certainly seems doing fuck all with out the pressure of a job is a much better world than actually working for a living and trying to better yourself and they fuck you

Yep. You're just an economic work unit.

I've been self employed mainly for 43 years and in all that time I've had a couple of better years but I had one good year in particular. HMRC clobbered me with a tax investigation and stole nearly £50,000 from me. That was money that I was going to invest in expanding the business but instead it hamstrung us.

I learnt then that hard work and sacrifice didn't pay off and I wound back our ambitions significantly. They killed the goose.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, egg said:

The more you earn, the more you pay. That's how society should be imo. Do I want to pay as much tax as I do? Of course I don't. Do I accept that I should, can, and be grateful that I'm doing better than most? Yes. 

Define doing better than most

i found out in Brussels this week they the Belgians who are employed are entitled to automatic pay rises by law in line with inflation what a great system that is. 

of course no issue with paying more the more you earn the issue is that when you get to a certain level you’re giving nearly half you wage in income tax and still they want more. 

The point was is there really any point striving for more when you don’t really see a huge benefit from it. Of course your house and car won’t be as nice, less luxuries but does any of that really matter at the end of the day?

[Farmer Saint]

54 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Yep. You're just an economic work unit.

I've been self employed mainly for 43 years and in all that time I've had a couple of better years but I had one good year in particular. HMRC clobbered me with a tax investigation and stole nearly £50,000 from me. That was money that I was going to invest in expanding the business but instead it hamstrung us.

I learnt then that hard work and sacrifice didn't pay off and I wound back our ambitions significantly. They killed the goose.

Surely if you were going to invest back in the business you'd have kept it in the business, otherwise you'd have had to have paid additional tax on it? 

Edited June 6 by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

50 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Define doing better than most

i found out in Brussels this week they the Belgians who are employed are entitled to automatic pay rises by law in line with inflation what a great system that is. 

of course no issue with paying more the more you earn the issue is that when you get to a certain level you’re giving nearly half you wage in income tax and still they want more. 

The point was is there really any point striving for more when you don’t really see a huge benefit from it. Of course your house and car won’t be as nice, less luxuries but does any of that really matter at the end of the day?

No, you're giving nearly half any additional wage. That's just tax though - shit happens. 50% of a lot of money is still a lot of money.

[egg]

3 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That's true even with a flat tax rate be it 20% or 40%. The problem is that we have a progressive system where the marginal rate gets progressively higher. It's almost as though they don't want you to work hard and make something of yourself.

That depends on your outlook mate. The more you earn, ordinarily the more you can afford. I have no issue with a progressive system. 

[egg]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

Define doing better than most

i found out in Brussels this week they the Belgians who are employed are entitled to automatic pay rises by law in line with inflation what a great system that is. 

of course no issue with paying more the more you earn the issue is that when you get to a certain level you’re giving nearly half you wage in income tax and still they want more. 

The point was is there really any point striving for more when you don’t really see a huge benefit from it. Of course your house and car won’t be as nice, less luxuries but does any of that really matter at the end of the day?

Anyone paying 45% tax is doing better financially than most people, that much is obvious. It means a good level of income. 

This is an observation, not a criticism, but I've noted many people down the years see their income improve, and become more resentful of paying tax. I guess that outlook comes partly from political ideology. 

Your latter point is an interesting one and I think it varies from person to person. I've achieved pretty much all there is to achieve in my game so I've taken my feet off the peddle as I'm not fussed about big bucks, status and all they bollox any more, but I completely understand people who strive for all or some of that. If they want it, then more tax is the financial price to pay. 

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Surely if you were going to invest back in the business you'd have kept it in the business, otherwise you'd have had to have paid additional tax on it? 

That's the point. I kept in in the business and it was taken from the business. This was when I was a sole trader.

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

No, you're giving nearly half any additional wage. That's just tax though - shit happens. 50% of a lot of money is still a lot of money.

And a lot more work. Is it worth it?

[Whitey Grandad]

50 minutes ago, egg said:

Anyone paying 45% tax is doing better financially than most people, that much is obvious. It means a good level of income. 

This is an observation, not a criticism, but I've noted many people down the years see their income improve, and become more resentful of paying tax. I guess that outlook comes partly from political ideology. 

Your latter point is an interesting one and I think it varies from person to person. I've achieved pretty much all there is to achieve in my game so I've taken my feet off the peddle as I'm not fussed about big bucks, status and all they bollox any more, but I completely understand people who strive for all or some of that. If they want it, then more tax is the financial price to pay. 

Disproportionately more tax though. It's almost as though they don't want you to work harder and earn more.

[egg]

9 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Disproportionately more tax though. It's almost as though they don't want you to work harder and earn more.

We'll never agree on this. Fundamentally I have no issue with paying more the more I earn. You'd rather keep more for your self. We're cut from different cloth. 

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

We'll never agree on this. Fundamentally I have no issue with paying more the more I earn. You'd rather keep more for your self. We're cut from different cloth. 

No, I doubt we ever will agree.

I date back to a time when there was a Supertax of 95%. There's a strong argument for a flat rate tax, certainly in terms of maximising revenue. 

I don't keep "more for myself" because I choose not to work so hard and I don't take so many financial risks. This is one reason why Britain fails economically. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No, I doubt we ever will agree.

I date back to a time when there was a Supertax of 95%. There's a strong argument for a flat rate tax, certainly in terms of maximising revenue. 

I don't keep "more for myself" because I choose not to work so hard and I don't take so many financial risks. This is one reason why Britain fails economically. 

We fail imo as we've been stuck for years with Tory governments over borrowing and slashing services, followed by labour governments raising taxes but having little headroom to increase spending, then repeating. We seem to have a mass of the population yearning for an unrealistic system of good services and low tax, ie the non sensical reform pledge, and being perplexed when it goes to shit. I look at countries like Denmark who's population accept high taxes in the knowledge they get a good return for their buck. It's only worked for them though as they've had consistently, and the people buy into it and see tax as something they need to pay, rather than having tax taken from them. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

And a lot more work. Is it worth it?

The more you move up, and the more you earn the better paid per hour that work becomes...it's where delegation comes in.

Edited June 6 by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That's the point. I kept in in the business and it was taken from the business. This was when I was a sole trader.

Eh? Then you must have not paid correct tax in previous years. The Tax Man can't steal something you don't owe, or you can take them to court. I know, because I did it when contracting in the early 10's.

[Farmer Saint]

51 minutes ago, egg said:

We'll never agree on this. Fundamentally I have no issue with paying more the more I earn. You'd rather keep more for your self. We're cut from different cloth. 

I'm with you. I would prefer any money I don't need (and if you're talking about 45% tax you don't "need" it to have a good life) to be funnelled to those less fortunate and who do need it, which is effectively what you're doing.

[Whitey Grandad]

31 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Eh? Then you must have not paid correct tax in previous years. The Tax Man can't steal something you don't owe, or you can take them to court. I know, because I did it when contracting in the early 10's.

I know you are not that naive. The outcome of a Tax Investigation is entirely in the hands of the investigator. They can go back over all time and add tax to what was agreed in writing 40 years ago. If you disagree you can ask for a Tribunal but you need a lot of money for that. In my case they refused any allowance for capital purchases despite what it says in the relevant Tax Law. "We don't agree with that interpretation" was what I was told. 

[Whitey Grandad]

33 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I'm with you. I would prefer any money I don't need (and if you're talking about 45% tax you don't "need" it to have a good life) to be funnelled to those less fortunate and who do need it, which is effectively what you're doing.

That would be very noble if that were to happen. Unfortunately that is not usual.

[Whitey Grandad]

33 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I'm with you. I would prefer any money I don't need (and if you're talking about 45% tax you don't "need" it to have a good life) to be funnelled to those less fortunate and who do need it, which is effectively what you're doing.

That would be very noble if that were to happen. Unfortunately that is not usual.

 

39 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

The more you move up, and the more you earn the better paid per hour that work becomes...it's where delegation comes in.

 

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That would be very noble if that were to happen. Unfortunately that is not usual.

But that is what happens - that's effectively what is happening with progressive tax.

[Farmer Saint]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I know you are not that naive. The outcome of a Tax Investigation is entirely in the hands of the investigator. They can go back over all time and add tax to what was agreed in writing 40 years ago. If you disagree you can ask for a Tribunal but you need a lot of money for that. In my case they refused any allowance for capital purchases despite what it says in the relevant Tax Law. "We don't agree with that interpretation" was what I was told. 

That's got nothing to do with not trying harder to get more out of your company. That's an issue with how the tax authorities apply tax law.

[Whitey Grandad]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

But that is what happens - that's effectively what is happening with progressive tax.

It also happens with a flat tax.

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

That's got nothing to do with not trying harder to get more out of your company. That's an issue with how the tax authorities apply tax law.

I was talking about Tax Investigations. I know of several instances where an arbitrary sum has been demanded, in one case (nothing to do with me) leading directly to the closure of the business and the loss of nineteen jobs. Despite a written agreement a new Tax Officer decided to cancel it and apply his own interpretation.

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It also happens with a flat tax.

Yes, but unless you're planning on the flat tax at 45% it's much less. My argument is that people on 45% can afford to take some of the tax burden of those less well off. The cost of living crisis, which is the title of this thread, would be far worse for far more people with a flat rate tax.

[egg]

47 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That would be very noble if that were to happen. Unfortunately that is not usual.

I don't think it's noble or unusual. Some people want stuff but don't want to pay , and some of those aren't too fussed about their fellow man. Others accept that you get nothing for nothing, accept that those who can pay more should, and that there shouldn't be a massive gulf between the bulk of society. 

[egg]

44 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I was talking about Tax Investigations. I know of several instances where an arbitrary sum has been demanded, in one case (nothing to do with me) leading directly to the closure of the business and the loss of nineteen jobs. Despite a written agreement a new Tax Officer decided to cancel it and apply his own interpretation.

So someone trying to beat/cheat the system got caught and had to pay the correct amount? 

[petermcpete]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I don't think it's noble or unusual. Some people want stuff but don't want to pay , and some of those aren't too fussed about their fellow man. Others accept that you get nothing for nothing, accept that those who can pay more should, and that there shouldn't be a massive gulf between the bulk of society. 

You know it is possible to voluntarily pay more tax, beyond that which is automatically taken from your pay check?

I assume you're already doing that?

[egg]

11 minutes ago, petermcpete said:

You know it is possible to voluntarily pay more tax, beyond that which is automatically taken from your pay check?

I assume you're already doing that?

My tax isn't taken, I pay it. In full. On time. I assume you do too. 

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, egg said:

So someone trying to beat/cheat the system got caught and had to pay the correct amount? 

Nope. Nothing like that at all. And I deeply resent the implication. So going back 30 years and changing the terms of a written agreement retrospectively is "having to pay the correct amount"? I had been scrupulous in being honest and declaring every penny of my income up until then. Ever since then I don't bother trying to earn anything.

Edited June 6 by Whitey Grandad

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Yes, but unless you're planning on the flat tax at 45% it's much less. My argument is that people on 45% can afford to take some of the tax burden of those less well off. The cost of living crisis, which is the title of this thread, would be far worse for far more people with a flat rate tax.

Much less? That's what all the debates about tax systems are about. Gaffer curves and all that stuff.

The basic rate has been up at 35% in my lifetime. 

 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

23 hours ago, Turkish said:

Maybe there is a nod back here to the is life really all that thread - which we all mocked years ago 

the more you earn and better you do the more they want - every year despite having always been PAYE I have to do a tax return it never goes in my favour and I always owe more 

i pay 40% in a good year some time 45% of my wage in tax plus a compulsory tax on my pension which they insist I now pay toward. I live in a house now where the council tax is more than double where we previously lived 

all in all is it really worth even aspiring to be successful in this day and age? It certainly seems doing fuck all with out the pressure of a job is a much better world than actually working for a living and trying to better yourself and they fuck you

A quick skim indicates the nod back hasn't been linked to.

 

[Turkish]

34 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

A quick skim indicates the nod back hasn't been linked to.

 

A golden thread 

[egg]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Nope. Nothing like that at all. And I deeply resent the implication. So going back 30 years and changing the terms of a written agreement retrospectively is "having to pay the correct amount"? I had been scrupulous in being honest and declaring every penny of my income up until then. Ever since then I don't bother trying to earn anything.

There was no implication against you. The post I commented on referred to something that was "nothing to do with me". If it was a self reference, you suggested otherwise. 

[whelk]

Problem is taxes are needed and they need to hit the super wealthy not the reasonably well off. 
Also all those self employed bastards pay fuck all

[Whitey Grandad]

11 hours ago, whelk said:

Problem is taxes are needed and they need to hit the super wealthy not the reasonably well off. 
Also all those self employed bastards pay fuck all

Yes they are necessary but the only way to raise large amounts is to take money from the ordinary person.

The self employed do pay tax.

[Farmer Saint]

13 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Nope. Nothing like that at all. And I deeply resent the implication. So going back 30 years and changing the terms of a written agreement retrospectively is "having to pay the correct amount"? I had been scrupulous in being honest and declaring every penny of my income up until then. Ever since then I don't bother trying to earn anything.

I thought it was a capital expenditure issue, not income? Sorry, I just don't get it.

However, your accountant, who interpreted it that way, should have been liable for any loss.

Edited June 7 by Farmer Saint

[whelk]

47 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

The self employed do pay tax.

Not at the same proportion as a PAYE in my experience. So many write off to ‘expenses’

[Farmer Saint]

19 minutes ago, whelk said:

Not at the same proportion as a PAYE in my experience. So many write off to ‘expenses’

Ish...I think the issue is the honesty part of it as much as the tax laws as such. Expenses are not expenses, but some people take the piss. Unless you're going to audit everyone though it's very hard to track.

[east-stand-nic]

A good friend of mine lost his business in a very similar way to how it has mentioned before above. The thing is, the tax office go after and target self employed small business as they are easy pickings. They know they don't have the money for a good lawyer or accountant to defend themselves.

But I have very little sympathy for anyone who loses their business or who gets taxed to much while still supporting mass illegal immigration. These buddies of yours coming over on their dingy have to have their hotel bills paid for by some one. You cannot have it both ways. 

[whelk]

38 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Ish...I think the issue is the honesty part of it as much as the tax laws as such. Expenses are not expenses, but some people take the piss. Unless you're going to audit everyone though it's very hard to track.

Indeed, it is the honesty aspect. Friend of mine who ran a limited company used to boast to me how he had worked out to pay less tax by using dividends. Same time bemoaning the state of the services and the country. Although that loophole has been closed now I think.