Israel

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think we should only intervene with diplomatic solutions unless we have proof of what is happening.

I think the main issue is I struggle to agree with what's happening considering Trump and Netanyahu are behind this. But then I guess Hitler probably had some policies that would be agreeable to reasonable people.

Sorry is the enriched uranium story being disputed? 

[Farmer Saint]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Sorry is the enriched uranium story being disputed? 

Well, isn't enriched uranium used for nuclear plants and nuclear subs amongst other items? 

[benjii]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Don't Pakistan have nukes though?

Yes, which is why they have a disproportionate amount of leverage and manage to support groups like the Taliban with relatively little comeback.

So best if Iran isn't also in that club.

[egg]

25 minutes ago, leesaint88 said:

I'm not 100% sure on that - a number of years ago I worked with a number of Iranians who once in a position to speak freely, they certainly didn't care much for the regime and the women were even more critical of them. Many watch western TV shows and news (at the time they could access the BBC world service) they wished the country was more open and liberal. 

Whilst they don't want to be trapped by the west, they know that with the vast wealth in Iran they could easily become a super state in the gulf with western investment. 

You're conflating the desire of some Iranians wish for change with other countries wish for change. Entirely different, and with different motivation. 

Iran were on the road to being a successful state. Until 1953 they had a democratic government. The UK and US engineered a coup. Iran then got the Shah, who ran the country with US "support". The Iranians didn't like the level of Western ism, and influence. They then had the revolution in 1979, leading to the "supreme leader", and we've seen what happened since.

No doubt some Iranians want change. Moreover, the west want change. They want a malleable leader (again). 

This is all about regime change, and softening up the Iranian masses to want it and accept outside "support". Basically, Iran are being taken back to 1953. 

 

[egg]

7 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Well, isn't enriched uranium used for nuclear plants and nuclear subs amongst other items? 

Yes. Many countries have it without nuclear weapons. Japan, South Africa, etc. 

This seems to come back to people being cool with Israel having a nuke but Iran not having any form of nuclear. 

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Well, isn't enriched uranium used for nuclear plants and nuclear subs amongst other items? 

I'm not a scientist but do you have any links that show any alternative reasons for enriching uranium to 60% other than preparing to develop a bomb? 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

Yes. Many countries have it without nuclear weapons. Japan, South Africa, etc. 

This seems to come back to people being cool with Israel having a nuke but Iran not having any form of nuclear. 

Is it your contention that Iran were enriching uranium to 60% for entirely innocent and non nuclear bomb related reasons? Do you have any evidence for that claim? Have Japan and South Africa enriched uranium to 60% for that purpose?

[egg]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm not a scientist but do you have any links that show any alternative reasons for enriching uranium to 60% other than preparing to develop a bomb? 

Misguided leverage. 

[egg]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Is it your contention that Iran were enriching uranium to 60% for entirely innocent and non nuclear bomb related reasons? Do you have any evidence for that claim? Have Japan and South Africa enriched uranium to 60% for that purpose?

Japan are widely known to be able to put together nukes at the click of a finger. Iran weren't that close it would seem. If Iran were willing to roll back their enrichment to pre 2018 levels, and facilitate access to inspection, what would be the issue? 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Misguided leverage. 

So they were pretending to get close to building a bomb for leverage? Spending billions on the required technology with no intention of ever actually acquiring one? And that's more likely than actually just secretly building a bomb? 

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, egg said:

Japan are widely known to be able to put together nukes at the click of a finger. Iran weren't that close it would seem. If Iran were willing to roll back their enrichment to pre 2018 levels, and facilitate access to inspection, what would be the issue? 

Do you have any evidence for the claim that Japan have highly enriched uranium to the point that they were closer than Iran appear to be? Do we have any evidence that Iran were prepared to roll back their enrichment and allow inspections? It seems to be the opposite was the case. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

1. Do you have any evidence for the claim that Japan have highly enriched uranium to the point that they were closer than Iran appear to be?

2. Do we have any evidence that Iran were prepared to roll back their enrichment and allow inspections? It seems to be the opposite was the case. 

1. Google is your friend. 

2. There is no evidence of either parties stance in the talks, save that the US were publicly saying no enriched uranium. 

Where's the evidence that until Trump blew up the deal in 2018 that Iran weren't playing the game? Assuming they were, why would they not retreat to their pre 2018 position? The leverage flows from that - Iran demonstrated that they had the ability. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

1. Google is your friend. 

2. There is no evidence of either parties stance in the talks, save that the US were publicly saying no enriched uranium. 

Where's the evidence that until Trump blew up the deal in 2018 that Iran weren't playing the game? Assuming they were, why would they not retreat to their pre 2018 position? The leverage flows from that - Iran demonstrated that they had the ability. 

1) You made the claim and then tell me to look it up. I haven't seen any claims either online or offline that Japan have enriched uranium to a high degree. Where is the evidence that they are further down the road to a nuclear bomb than Iran?

2) All Iran have succeeded in doing is getting their regime destroyed. I haven't seen the theory outside of this forum that Iran were just pretending to attempt to build a nuke. I don't see why that would be more likely or more beneficial for them than to actually just go ahead and try to get away with actually building one given the leverage and strength it would give their regime. 

[egg]

28 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

1) You made the claim and then tell me to look it up. I haven't seen any claims either online or offline that Japan have enriched uranium to a high degree. Where is the evidence that they are further down the road to a nuclear bomb than Iran?

2) All Iran have succeeded in doing is getting their regime destroyed. I haven't seen the theory outside of this forum that Iran were just pretending to attempt to build a nuke. I don't see why that would be more likely or more beneficial for them than to actually just go ahead and try to get away with actually building one given the leverage and strength it would give their regime. 

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency 

Japan are a "hop, skip and a jump" away from a nuke.

2.

I'm not sure who's said they were pretending to build a nuke. Bizarre interpretation. They're enriching uranium, and could build a nuke once they have, but there's zero evidence that they were actually building one. 

What's your position re the other points please? 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by egg

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

Yes, which is why they have a disproportionate amount of leverage and manage to support groups like the Taliban with relatively little comeback.

So best if Iran isn't also in that club.

But why aren't the US going after Pakistan? And they have them, but haven't used them yet...

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm not a scientist but do you have any links that show any alternative reasons for enriching uranium to 60% other than preparing to develop a bomb? 

No, because I'm not a scientist either 

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Japan are widely known to be able to put together nukes at the click of a finger. Iran weren't that close it would seem. If Iran were willing to roll back their enrichment to pre 2018 levels, and facilitate access to inspection, what would be the issue? 

Luckily the Japanese are not known for being the baddies...

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, egg said:

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency 

Japan are a "hop, skip and a jump" away from a nuke.

2.

I'm not sure who's said they were pretending to build a nuke. Bizarre interpretation. They're enriching uranium, and could build a nuke once they have, but there's zero evidence that they were actually building one. 

What's your position re the other points please? 

 

1) Right so they have the capability to produce a nuclear bomb but there's no evidence at all that Japan have the intention to do so. As opposed to Iran who actually have highly enriched uranium that only has one use as far as I am aware which is to use it to produce a nuclear bomb or as you claim to make people think they want to produce a nuclear bomb. 

2) I isn't understand your point. There's no reason to enrich uranium to 60% other than to build a bomb or to pretend that you want to build a bomb which I agree is absurd. The act of enriching uranium to that percentage is evidence enough of their intentions. There's no other plausible explanation for them doing it. 

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

No, because I'm not a scientist either 

OK so as far as I'm aware there are no alternative reasons for enriching uranium to that degree. Agreed? 

[hypochondriac]

Here's a good and short video about why Iran should never get a nuclear bomb:

 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Luckily the Japanese are not known for being the baddies...

Unlike Pakistan 🤦‍♂️

[Farmer Saint]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

OK so as far as I'm aware there are no alternative reasons for enriching uranium to that degree. Agreed? 

No, I'm not agreeing to that because I've not bothered looking it up. Unfortunately some of us have jobs that keep us pretty busy, rather than jumping through hoops to justify two fucking psychos bombing a sovereign state with no proof of exactly what is going on. I can't prove what they're going to do with that uranium, but neither can you.

[whelk]

Iran asking Putin for help. That cunt has enough on his plate 

[whelk]

@badgerx16 has been quiet lately

[Farmer Saint]

All in all, they don't seem to be bombing Pakistan, they don't seem to be bombing Japan, they don't seem to be bombing Russia and they don't seem to be bombing Germany. They do seem to be bombing an Arab state with huge oil reserves and a potential regime change which would benefit the US. Hmmm...

Edited 1 hour ago by Farmer Saint

[egg]

10 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

All in all, they don't seem to be bombing Pakistan, they don't seem to be bombing Japan, they don't seem to be bombing Russia and they don't seem to be bombing Germany. They do seem to be bombing an Arab state with huge oil reserves and a potential regime change which would benefit the US. Hmmm...

Yep. And a regime who buy into normal relations with Israel (aka agree to sit back and allow them to fill their boots) from the off. 

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

All in all, they don't seem to be bombing Pakistan, they don't seem to be bombing Japan, they don't seem to be bombing Russia and they don't seem to be bombing Germany. They do seem to be bombing an Arab state with huge oil reserves and a potential regime change which would benefit the US. Hmmm...

Also an authoritarian religious fundamentalist regime who oppress and murder their own people particularly minorities and women, has been attacking Israel via proxies for years, funds terrorism around the world, refers to America as the great Satan and has declared their intention to destroy Israel if ever given the opportunity to do so. Oh and they breached their agreements around nuclear energy according to the IAEA and enriched uranium to really high levels. So seems like quite a lot of reasons to strike their nuclear sites and call for regime change then. 

[Farmer Saint]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Also an authoritarian religious fundamentalist regime who oppress and murder their own people particularly minorities and women, has been attacking Israel via proxies for years, funds terrorism around the world, refers to America as the great Satan and has declared their intention to destroy Israel if ever given the opportunity to do so. Oh and they breached their agreements around nuclear energy according to the IAEA and enriched uranium to really high levels. So seems like quite a lot of reasons to strike their nuclear sites and call for regime change then. 

And Pakistan, who harbour and encourage terrorists, and Russia, who are currently trying to annexe various sovereign states, constant European aggressors are allowed to continue. What's going on with North Korea? They're very similar to Iran in the way they speak about the US and yet there is nothing going on with them. Oh yes, no oil.

Just because Benjamin has got a neverending hard-on for killing innocent people, it doesn't mean that the West should be involved in his genocidal wankathon.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

And Pakistan, who harbour and encourage terrorists, and Russia, who are currently trying to annexe various sovereign states, constant European aggressors are allowed to continue. What's going on with North Korea? They're very similar to Iran in the way they speak about the US and yet there is nothing going on with them. Oh yes, no oil.

Just because Benjamin has got a neverending hard-on for killing innocent people, it doesn't mean that the West should be involved in his genocidal wankathon.

All of them have nuclear weapons which is obviously a consideration. Yet another reason to prevent Iran from gaining them. 

[Farmer Saint]

26 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

All of them have nuclear weapons which is obviously a consideration. Yet another reason to prevent Iran from gaining them. 

Do North Korea? Also, only Russia and Iran have oil, and Trump is BFFs with Vlad, so they don't want regime change there (irrespective of the fact that he is doing stuff the Iranian regime isn't).

Edited 53 minutes ago by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

This is my issue. This is a case of trust, and whether you trust Netanyahu (a war criminal) Trump and Hegseth and what they say. It's the boy who cried wolf - they lie, and lie, and kill, and lie, and then when they're finally telling the truth expect us to believe them.

Unfortunately I'm not going to, and I would suggest taking everything they say with the proverbial pinch of salt.

Edited 39 minutes ago by Farmer Saint

[egg]

19 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

This is my issue. This is a case of trust, and whether you trust Netanyahu (a war criminal) Trump and Hegseth and what they say. It's the boy who cried wolf - they lie, and lie, and kill, and lie, and then when they're finally telling the truth expect us to believe them.

Unfortunately I'm not going to, and I would suggest taking everything they say with the proverbial pinch of salt.

Indeed. Essentially, we're expected not to trust Iran, but trust the rest. I don't trust Israel with a nuke anymore than I trust Iran, and I certainly trust very little that Trump says. I still think it's necessary to understand the Iran and US stance in the negotiations. If Iran were willing to roll back enrichment levels to where they were before Trump pulled the plug on the 2018 deal, the US have a case to answer. If Iran weren't, then my sympathy has gone.