Israel

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, benjii said:

I believe they are in progress, yes.

So they are involved....

[hypochondriac]

Surely the goal of ending the genocide overrides all other considerations? Now there's a proposal on the table to definitively end the genocide. Everyone should be putting pressure on to get this accepted and for the genocide to end. 

[hypochondriac]

This seems like a good idea 

[Farmer Saint]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

This seems like a good idea 

Is that true? Considering the article is almost 3 weeks old I'm sure we'd have heard something on that?

[hypochondriac]

29 minutes ago, benjii said:

Because they weren't involved in the negotiations? 

And because Netanyahu won't honour the deal?

So it's not about ending the genocide then? It's about making Hamas feel good?

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

Is that true? Considering the article is almost 3 weeks old I'm sure we'd have heard something on that?

In what sense? It is a real article yes 

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

So it's not about ending the genocide then? It's about making Hamas feel good?

Surely it's about a plan that works for both Israel and Gaza. Not sure the current deal works for Gaza - I mean I can't imagine it would considering it was thrashed out between Netanyahu and Trump.

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what sense? It is a real article yes 

The content of the article, clearly.

5 Pillars is known for being a conspiracy theorist website, and also there is no other record of this story in the media?

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Surely it's about a plan that works for both Israel and Gaza. Not sure the current deal works for Gaza - I mean I can't imagine it would considering it was thrashed out between Netanyahu and Trump.

Which part doesn't work for Gaza? Ending the genocide, Israeli withdrawal, disarming the terrorists. That sounds great. I imagine the people of Gaza are desperate to end the genocide so will be welcoming this proposal to stop it.

Edited Sunday at 08:23 by hypochondriac

[Farmer Saint]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Which part doesn't work for Gaza? Ending the genocide, Israeli withdrawal, disarming the terrorists. That sounds great. I imagine the people of Gaza are desperate to end the genocide so will be welcoming this proposal to stop it.

I literally can't answer that as I've not seen the full agreement.

I'm assuming you have? 

Edited Sunday at 08:27 by Farmer Saint

[Sheaf Saint]

12 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

The content of the article, clearly.

5 Pillars is known for being a conspiracy theorist website, and also there is no other record of this story in the media?

If you read the article, it's actually one of the most misleading headlines you'll ever see. It should read: "MP writes to foreign secretary to recommend some kind of action to prevent genocide in Gaza, and a few others support him".

That's why we haven't heard anything more about it in the wider press, because it's a complete non-story.

Unsurprising that Hypo would take the headline at face value though.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Sheaf Saint said:

If you read the article, it's actually one of the most misleading headlines you'll ever see. It should read: "MP writes to foreign secretary to recommend some kind of action to prevent genocide in Gaza, and a few others support him".

That's why we haven't heard anything more about it in the wider press, because it's a complete non-story.

Unsurprising that Hypo would take the headline at face value though.

Eh? I read the article.

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I literally can't answer that as I've not seen the full agreement.

I'm assuming you have? 

Then you can't really say if the agreement works for Gaza or not can you.

[Sheaf Saint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Eh? I read the article.

Great. And at what point does it actually confirm what the headline says?

Answer: it doesn't.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, Sheaf Saint said:

If you read the article, it's actually one of the most misleading headlines you'll ever see. It should read: "MP writes to foreign secretary to recommend some kind of action to prevent genocide in Gaza, and a few others support him".

That's why we haven't heard anything more about it in the wider press, because it's a complete non-story.

Unsurprising that Hypo would take the headline at face value though.

I just think Sunday's are a non due-dilligence day for Hypo looking at what he's posting this morning. It's fine, we all have them.

[benjii]

22 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So it's not about ending the genocide then? It's about making Hamas feel good?

Why are you trying to conflate Hamas with people objecting to genocide?

Hamas are murderous idiots under the spell of Iran, who is willing to fight Israel to the last Palestinian. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Great. And at what point does it actually confirm what the headline says?

Answer: it doesn't.

Is it calling for the UK to pursue joining military intervention in Gaza? 

[Sheaf Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Then you can't really say if the agreement works for Gaza or not can you.

Fucking hell, you're tying yourself up in knots this morning. He literally said "Not sure the current deal works for Gaza". 

[Farmer Saint]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Then you can't really say if the agreement works for Gaza or not can you.

Absolutely, and you don't know that it would, so I think we're probably best to wait until we do see it, don't you?

Edited Sunday at 08:39 by Farmer Saint

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, benjii said:

Why are you trying to conflate Hamas with people objecting to genocide?

Hamas are murderous idiots under the spell of Iran, who is willing to fight Israel to the last Palestinian. 

What relevance is there in Hamas being involved in negotiations or not? The overriding priority is to end the genocide. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Fucking hell, you're tying yourself up in knots this morning. He literally said "Not sure the current deal works for Gaza". 

I think he's not fully woken up this morning.

[Sheaf Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Is it calling for the UK to pursue joining military intervention in Gaza? 

The letter reads: “I write to you with urgency and with grave concern following today’s announcement from the United Nations Independent Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, which concluded unequivocally that acts of genocide are being committed by Israel in Gaza.

“This conclusion, grounded in international law and forensic evidence, finds that senior Israeli leaders, including Prime Minister Netanyahu, have incited, directed, or facilitated genocidal acts.

“The UK is a founding signatory of the Genocide Convention and a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council. These positions are not ceremonial. They come with binding legal and moral obligations. Your government must now act.”

No mention of military action, let alone declaration of war. 

Like I said, a total non-story.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Surely the goal of ending the genocide overrides all other considerations? Now there's a proposal on the table to definitively end the genocide. Everyone should be putting pressure on to get this accepted and for the genocide to end. 

Possibly, but the people propping up Netanyahu are totally opposed to the plan. Unless Ben Gvir changes his mind, which he won't, the whole thing is a non starter. His plan for ending the war is to totally remove the Palestinian population of Gaza and replace them with Israeli settlers.

Edited Sunday at 09:35 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

I had a read some of the reactions to this deal. One positive is that many Gazans who spoke are blaming Hamas for the situation they find themselves in. Encouraging as waning sympathy for terrorists is going to make a deal that removes Hamas from power more likely.

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Possibly, but the people propping up Netanyahu are totally opposed to the plan. Unless Ben Gvir changes his mind, which he won't, the whole thing is a non starter. His plan for ending the war is to totally remove the Paleztinian population of Gaza and replace them with Israeli settlers.

If we get full agreement from the Palestinian side and it's only Israel holding things up then it will be clear where the problem lies. He's famously unpredictable but I don't think Trump is going to stand for Israel messing things up and preventing his Nobel peace prize. Israel knows who has the power in their relationship.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

If we get full agreement from the Palestinian side and it's only Israel holding things up then it will be clear where the problem lies. He's famously unpredictable but I don't think Trump is going to stand for Israel messing things up and preventing his Nobel peace prize. Israel knows who has the power in their relationship.

Netanyahu might, but the extremist elements in his Cabinet are the stumbling block.

 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Netanyahu might, but the extremist elements in his Cabinet are the stumbling block.

 

I think we cross that bridge when we know for certain that Trump isn't going to do anything in response if Israel decide to blow the agreement up. First thing is to secure agreement from the Palestinians, get the withdrawal started and release all the hostages. Once that's done there should be immense pressure on reducing the remaining capabilities of Hamas and once we have that much of the justification for Israel continuing and remaining sympathy from the international community won't be there in my opinion. That's the moment for severe pressure on Israel and hopefully chiefly from America.

[badgerx16]

Thank goodness this didn't end up with anybody injured or killed;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2dglp43xmo

 

Maybe we need to show solidarity with the Muslim community in the face of such hate crimes.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Thank goodness this didn't end up with anybody injured or killed;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2dglp43xmo

 

Maybe we need to show solidarity with the Muslim community in the face of such hate crimes.

Awful. Anyone committing crimes like this in response to other atrocities need removing from society.

[egg]

35 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What relevance is there in Hamas being involved in negotiations or not? The overriding priority is to end the genocide. 

If that post isn't a wind up, it's daft. 

A deal must be a mutual agreement. Not an imposed ultimatum involving just one protagonist. 

Peace has to be realistically achievable and sustainable. The deal must also be fair. Read it fully if you haven't. No deal will be sustainable without Palestinian right to self rule, autonomy, and security guarantees for themselves. 

There's a future for the people of Gaza beyond this Israeli demolition job, and Hamas. Your comments don't seem to acknowledge the need to address that. 

For me, the simplest solution is for a full ceasefire now, then the release of hostages held on both sides (simultaneously), then a discussion about the future without pre conditions. 

[egg]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Awful. Anyone committing crimes like this in response to other atrocities need removing from society.

But ok in other contexts? Things like that are abhorrent full stop, not just in response to an atrocity. 

[Gloucester Saint]

44 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Netanyahu might, but the extremist elements in his Cabinet are the stumbling block.

 

The only way I can see it happening is for Ben Gvir to go missing and be found David Kelly style with an open coroners’ verdict. Not advocating for that by the way.

Edited Sunday at 09:43 by Gloucester Saint

[hypochondriac]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

But ok in other contexts? Things like that are abhorrent full stop, not just in response to an atrocity. 

What a bizarre response.

[egg]

Noting Hypo's confusing to my post. 

Why did you contextualise your condemnation?

Your reaction to anyone doing the same re the Manchester synagogue attack would have been critical, and correctly so. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What a bizarre response.

Not at all. What's bizarre is your limited condemnation, and apparent inability to see what others see. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Noting Hypo's confusing to my post. 

Why did you contextualise your condemnation?

Your reaction to anyone doing the same re the Manchester synagogue attack would have been critical, and correctly so. 

Because the person dpibg it would have been attempting to use the attack on the synagogue as justification for the attack when there is none. Truly bizarre but quite telling that you'd think I'd support burning down a mosque in other circumstances.

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Because the person dpibg it would have been attempting to use the attack on the synagogue as justification for the attack when there is none. Truly bizarre but quite telling that you'd think I'd support burning down a mosque in other circumstances.

The attacking of Jews, and Muslims, and attacking the respective holy places of each religion, are all appalling in any context. 

You're the only person seeking to limit your condemnation to just one aspect of that. 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

The attacking of Jews, and Muslims, and attacking the respective holy places of each religion, are all appalling in any context. 

You're the only person seeking to limit your condemnation to just one aspect of that. 

 

 

No I wasn't. 

[sadoldgit]

Strange thread recently. To state the obvious, the idea that security forces can keep on top of every terrorist thread is patently impossible. As the saying goes, a terrorist only has to get lucky once. The security forces have to get lucky every single day of the week. There are countless operations being carried out all of the time, many with positive results, but it is physically and technically impossible to stop every attack. There isn’t a single security force on the planet that has been able to prevent every single attack and, due to the nature of these attacks, there never will be.

I am sure we all understand that, apart from one poster who seems to think that all Muslims are a potential threat therefore we should provide the resources to monitor them all, all of the time.

And yes hypo, I am being flippant (and I am referring to you).

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

And yes hypo, I am being flippant (and I am referring to you).

No, really ?

[egg]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Strange thread recently. To state the obvious, the idea that security forces can keep on top of every terrorist thread is patently impossible. As the saying goes, a terrorist only has to get lucky once. The security forces have to get lucky every single day of the week. There are countless operations being carried out all of the time, many with positive results, but it is physically and technically impossible to stop every attack. There isn’t a single security force on the planet that has been able to prevent every single attack and, due to the nature of these attacks, there never will be.

I am sure we all understand that, apart from one poster who seems to think that all Muslims are a potential threat therefore we should provide the resources to monitor them all, all of the time.

And yes hypo, I am being flippant (and I am referring to you).

Indeed. 7/10 happened despite the scale of the Israeli budget and personnel. Not every wrong un can be spotted and/or stopped. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

No I wasn't. 

I think, yet again (and as identified multiple times over the last few months), your writing style leaves your opinions/points open to a lot of misinterpretation and confusion. It's not a coincidence that it is consistently your posts that a lot of people have issues with.

Maybe you should try to work on that.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think, yet again (and as identified multiple times over the last few months), your writing style leaves your opinions/points open to a lot of misinterpretation and confusion. It's not a coincidence that it is consistently your posts that a lot of people have issues with.

Maybe you should try to work on that.

Very benevolent. 

I think it's his opinions and attitudes that he should try to work on. 

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, egg said:

Very benevolent. 

I think it's his opinions and attitudes that he should try to work on. 

Just trying to give benefit of the doubt tbh.

[hypochondriac]

20 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think, yet again (and as identified multiple times over the last few months), your writing style leaves your opinions/points open to a lot of misinterpretation and confusion. It's not a coincidence that it is consistently your posts that a lot of people have issues with.

Maybe you should try to work on that.

I'm comfortable with the same cohort of people choosing to interpret what I've written in the most incharitable way possible. Maybe take what I've said at face value next time and when I've said what the meaning of my post was accept that's what the meaning was. 

[hypochondriac]

19 minutes ago, egg said:

Very benevolent. 

I think it's his opinions and attitudes that he should try to work on. 

Lol. If I ranked a list of posters on here based on who I'd listen to about advice on attitude or opinions you'd be near the bottom. Above soggy though tbf.

[egg]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I'm comfortable with the same cohort of people choosing to interpret what I've written in the most incharitable way possible. Maybe take what I've said at face value next time and when I've said what the meaning of my post was accept that's what the meaning was. 

The thing is, you can try to row backwards by saying that you mean something, but, your posts are clearly written and interpreted by many from the words used. Your intelligent bloke and way better than doing a Russell Martin and blaming everyone else. 

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm comfortable with the same cohort of people choosing to interpret what I've written in the most incharitable way possible. Maybe take what I've said at face value next time and when I've said what the meaning of my post was accept that's what the meaning was. 

Well, if interpreting at face value, then you literally said this and qualified your disgust:

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Anyone committing crimes like this in response to other atrocities need removing from society.

[hypochondriac]

59 minutes ago, egg said:

Indeed. 7/10 happened despite the scale of the Israeli budget and personnel. Not every wrong un can be spotted and/or stopped. 

It's tiresome to have to repeat what I've already written but which but of the following post suggested that every wrong could be spotted or stopped? 

"Obviously the types of threat and the severity of the threat would change and you're not going to be able to prevent every terror attack but you'd change things as the facts change."

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

Well, if interpreting at face value, then you literally said this and qualified your disgust:

Perhaps if you're having difficulty interpreting what I've written perhaps seek some clarification. I've told you the meaning of my post.