Are Stills hands tied regarding Stephens and Bazunu ?

[trousers]

9 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Imagine Stephens as first team coach……...

 

(Sorry if you're keeping tabs on this thread Skip... Just a bit of footie bants... No offence intended  )

Edited Thursday at 08:20 by trousers

[SW11_Saint]

17 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

You’ve not been to many other grounds and clubs I take it?

Just a few examples:

- Watch the clips after Nathan Jones’s only PL win at Everton. Their fans turned on them with some vitriol and went further in the car park directly physically accosting their players and then blocked roads around Goodison Park stopping their escape hurling further abuse and objects.

- West Ham at home to Burnley which was a full scale pitch invasion during the second half, mainly aimed at their owners but their players copped plenty too. It also got very tasty at Upton Park after our last minute winner in 2003.

- Skates loads of times, not least the abuse Carl Tiler got after an error ridden game v Palace. Even the skates at work the next day were staggered at the level and scale of the hatred spewed at the Fish Shed.

- Man U most of last season at Old Trafford 

- Liverpool fans at TAA after his move was nearly complete to Real

- Eric Dier took so much of it from one section of Spurs fans he climbed in that section to confront them

- Granit Xhaka moved overseas to get away from the Arsenal booboys

- Chelsea fans and Brian Laudrup, not sure he wanted to be there, and Chris Sutton. Going further back, targeting their own player Paul Canoville for horrific racist abuse.

I’ve been a fan for well over 50 years and have been aall over the country. My point is the fixation (and fury) some of our fans seem to have with Stephens & Bazunu - despite Still & Spors clearly having faith in them both. I they think they are worthy of inclusion I’m happy to see how things go. 

I’m never going to be proud of fans being vindictive toward our own players. You seem fairly comfortable with it being the norm though. Each to his own… 

[Charlie Wayman]

6 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Bazunu is the biggest risk to Dragan’s investment.  We aren’t getting promoted with him in goal.

Full stop.

[Gloucester Saint]

6 hours ago, SW11_Saint said:

I’ve been a fan for well over 50 years and have been aall over the country. My point is the fixation (and fury) some of our fans seem to have with Stephens & Bazunu - despite Still & Spors clearly having faith in them both. I they think they are worthy of inclusion I’m happy to see how things go. 

I’m never going to be proud of fans being vindictive toward our own players. You seem fairly comfortable with it being the norm though. Each to his own… 

I don’t aspire to those fans at all, just factually observing that our fanbase whether in the stadium or online is more moderate comparatively to a lot of similar sized or bigger clubs.  

[Chez]

Fans forum revealed that Spors made the decision to give Stephens the two year extension and sounds like Baz is probably getting a new contract...most likely Spors the key decision-maker on that contract too.

[pimpin4rizeal]

I actually don’t get this stephens is such a great leader and someone to guide the kids bollocks he’s a hot head does silly wreckless things like pull players hair and make rash challenges .was probably the biggest culprit of going idiot things last year yet we are making out like he’s the ultimate professional 

[Galway saint]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

Fans forum revealed that Spors made the decision to give Stephens the two year extension and sounds like Baz is probably getting a new contract...most likely Spors the key decision-maker on that contract too.

Great news if he is - will ward off the transfer interest from Derry City.

Jesus wept - can’t believe we would contemplate offering new contracts to both Stephens and Bazanu. If the latter also happens then god help us and the club is clearly still in a mess 

[JxgrSaint2]

9 hours ago, SW11_Saint said:

I’ve been a fan for well over 50 years and have been aall over the country. My point is the fixation (and fury) some of our fans seem to have with Stephens & Bazunu - despite Still & Spors clearly having faith in them both. I they think they are worthy of inclusion I’m happy to see how things go. 

I’m never going to be proud of fans being vindictive toward our own players. You seem fairly comfortable with it being the norm though. Each to his own… 

They are both fucking shit though, aren’t they?

[SW11_Saint]

8 hours ago, JxgrSaint2 said:

They are both fucking shit though, aren’t they?

I rest my case…

[SW11_Saint]

9 hours ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

I actually don’t get this stephens is such a great leader and someone to guide the kids bollocks he’s a hot head does silly wreckless things like pull players hair and make rash challenges .was probably the biggest culprit of going idiot things last year yet we are making out like he’s the ultimate professional 

Well, as Spors clearly pointed out it’s not all about what happens in games, it’s about his presence/leadership in training, supporting young players and generally around the club. 

[SW11_Saint]

11 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

I don’t aspire to those fans at all, just factually observing that our fanbase whether in the stadium or online is more moderate comparatively to a lot of similar sized or bigger clubs.  

Reading your examples again I’d say it’s only the Tiler, Dier and Xakha examples that are relevant - where players were systematically targeted due to performance. 

General ire at the ways teams perform or clubs are being run happens all the time. The TAA example is just frustration at star player wanting to leave. 

[Gloucester Saint]

4 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

Reading your examples again I’d say it’s only the Tiler, Dier and Xakha examples that are relevant - where players were systematically targeted due to performance. 

General ire at the ways teams perform or clubs are being run happens all the time. The TAA example is just frustration at star player wanting to leave. 

The TAA was still spewing hatred at a player, and that’s just three other examples of fan frustration at players under-performing off the top of my head in 60 seconds. Given time plenty more would come to mind.

It underscores the point that our fanbase is hardly unique and the Everton example was taken out directly on the players and was equally a frustration with players and owners. And probably humiliated at being Nathan Jones’s only PL scalp in their own backyard!

[tdmickey3]

14 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

Well, as Spors clearly pointed out it’s not all about what happens in games, it’s about his presence/leadership in training, supporting young players and generally around the club. 

While we get beat every week but as long as he`s good in the dressing room, shouts in training, and is so lovely to everyone.... just what we need as captain...

[Miltonaggro]

18 hours ago, SW11_Saint said:

I’ve been a fan for well over 50 years and have been aall over the country. My point is the fixation (and fury) some of our fans seem to have with Stephens & Bazunu - despite Still & Spors clearly having faith in them both. I they think they are worthy of inclusion I’m happy to see how things go. 

I’m never going to be proud of fans being vindictive toward our own players. You seem fairly comfortable with it being the norm though. Each to his own… 

Spors said the Stephens contract decision is 100% on him, Will Still’s ‘faith’ has yet to be tested.  My guess is that he is his own man with regard to picking his best 11 and that Spors’ sentiment won’t impact his selection after a few games. 

[trousers]

2 hours ago, Miltonaggro said:

Spors said the Stephens contract decision is 100% on him

By that, I hope he means that he takes 100% responsibility for the decision, rather than him suggesting that nobody else (i.e. Will Still) had a say in the decision itself. The latter would be somewhat troublesome IMO. 

Edited yesterday at 09:27 by trousers

[Chez]

3 hours ago, SW11_Saint said:

Well, as Spors clearly pointed out it’s not all about what happens in games, it’s about his presence/leadership in training, supporting young players and generally around the club. 

It's a results-based business. We should be giving contracts based on performance alone. We have a manager and god knows how many support staff to manage, motivate and look after the players, young and old. The only reason to pay a player tens of thousands every week is to play. 

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, Chez said:

It's a results-based business. We should be giving contracts based on performance alone. We have a manager and god knows how many support staff to manage, motivate and look after the players, young and old. The only reason to pay a player tens of thousands every week is to play. 

You’d have thought they’d have learned from the Lallana situation last season.

If Adam was giving sage advice, Russell Martin sure as hell didn’t listen to any of it.

[Chez]

48 minutes ago, trousers said:

By that, I hope he means that he takes 100% responsibility for the decision, rather than him suggesting that nobody else (i.e. Will Still) had a say in the decision itself. The latter would be somewhat troublesome IMO. 

Stephens contract was announced on the 9th July. You imagine the decision to offer him one was quite a while before then (negotiations, legals, medical, time to arrange announcement). So that will have been before Still had seen him train/play. Maybe even before Still had joined us (May 25th). He may have had input, he may not.

[Miltonaggro]

23 minutes ago, Chez said:

Stephens contract was announced on the 9th July. You imagine the decision to offer him one was quite a while before then (negotiations, legals, medical, time to arrange announcement). So that will have been before Still had seen him train/play. Maybe even before Still had joined us (May 25th). He may have had input, he may not.

That was my reading of it too.  

[Chez]

43 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

That was my reading of it too.  

Seeing as Quarshie was announced on the 30th, you have to question whether Still had any input on that transfer too...or Downs...or any of the players coming in.  

Will Still's title is "head coach". 

We know transfer committees have existed for yonks, making it difficult to pinpoint blame, but increasingly transfers seem to be taken further from the `managers' hands, so Still may have minimal input other than to describe his method of playing, formation and  possibly type of player. In the end, quality, physically strong/fast and technically good players will work no matter what. 

If the players coming in are poor, Spors will be the person to blame.

 

Edited yesterday at 11:26 by Chez

[SW11_Saint]

3 hours ago, Chez said:

It's a results-based business. We should be giving contracts based on performance alone. We have a manager and god knows how many support staff to manage, motivate and look after the players, young and old. The only reason to pay a player tens of thousands every week is to play. 

And it seems clear they are going to play him. But he’s been offered terms based on what he offers on and off the field as Spors said last night. 
 
I’d also challenge whether ANY Saints player (bar Matty F) deserves reward based on ‘performance’ last year…

[SW11_Saint]

2 hours ago, Chez said:

Seeing as Quarshie was announced on the 30th, you have to question whether Still had any input on that transfer too...or Downs...or any of the players coming in.  

Will Still's title is "head coach". 

We know transfer committees have existed for yonks, making it difficult to pinpoint blame, but increasingly transfers seem to be taken further from the `managers' hands, so Still may have minimal input other than to describe his method of playing, formation and  possibly type of player. In the end, quality, physically strong/fast and technically good players will work no matter what. 

If the players coming in are poor, Spors will be the person to blame.

 

I think this is just how modern football is. The DOFs are the real power brokers, and will make recruitment decisions. If the manager/coach is around to confer with, great, but if they aren’t they’ll go ahead recruiting based on their strategy anyway.  Wilcox had similar power from what I could see. 

[SW11_Saint]

7 hours ago, Miltonaggro said:

Spors said the Stephens contract decision is 100% on him, Will Still’s ‘faith’ has yet to be tested.  My guess is that he is his own man with regard to picking his best 11 and that Spors’ sentiment won’t impact his selection after a few games. 

Agreed. 

[SW11_Saint]

7 hours ago, tdmickey3 said:

While we get beat every week but as long as he`s good in the dressing room, shouts in training, and is so lovely to everyone.... just what we need as captain...

So you’re blaming last season’s record solely on someone who played only half of our league games? No one else involved? 

[Alain Perrin]

There are always one or two players who the fanbase can't stand but managers are invested in.   Stephens and Bazuna are the whipping boys of the moment.

Personally I have seen Stephens have some great games for us, similarly Bazuna has shown some flashes.   They've also had some shockers.

Regardless of how good you are - playing the style we played with Russell Martin, particularly early on, left both Bazuna and Stephens exposed and minds get set.   

It also very much depends on who they play with, having to compensate for tactics or a teammate having a shocker has an impact - I reckon I'd look half decent next to VVD.  

So I'll reserve judgement and hope that Still can get the best out of them and the reactionary element will eat their words (more likely though they'll just move to the next whipping boy).

Edited 19 hours ago by Alain Perrin

[tdmickey3]

3 hours ago, SW11_Saint said:

So you’re blaming last season’s record solely on someone who played only half of our league games? No one else involved? 

Don’t be stupid.
but he isnt good enough and should not be captain, his discipline is poor and we shouldn’t be keeping him, we need more from players rather than those who are just good to have about the place.

[SW11_Saint]

1 hour ago, tdmickey3 said:

Don’t be stupid.
but he isnt good enough and should not be captain, his discipline is poor and we shouldn’t be keeping him, we need more from players rather than those who are just good to have about the place.

I guess Spors & Still think differently, so you’ll just have to suck it up…

[tdmickey3]

11 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

I guess Spors & Still think differently, so you’ll just have to suck it up…

Calm down sweetie, it’s my opinion and one shared by many 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

10 hours ago, Chez said:

It's a results-based business. We should be giving contracts based on performance alone. We have a manager and god knows how many support staff to manage, motivate and look after the players, young and old. The only reason to pay a player tens of thousands every week is to play. 

But people who work in clubs (not just ours) say having a player for this off the field stuff is important, so why shouldn't we take their word for it?  We don't see it so it's hard to appreciate, but it is plausible that there are things a player can do that a coach can't. 

Demonstrating how to train professionally, and how a player should conduct themselves off the field, for example. Being a role model basically. That's something coaching staff can't do 

Also building relationships / helping with problems as more of an equal rather than as a coach who will inevitably be more distant.

[Andrew Watson]

As long as Stephens stays off the pitch,he can help the players as much as possible in any  way the club wishes.

[SW11_Saint]

1 hour ago, tdmickey3 said:

Calm down sweetie, it’s my opinion and one shared by many 

Totally calm honey-bunch, merely pointing out that whinging about Stephen’s all season is unlikely to change the minds of the people who employ him… 

[saintant]

12 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

But people who work in clubs (not just ours) say having a player for this off the field stuff is important, so why shouldn't we take their word for it?  We don't see it so it's hard to appreciate, but it is plausible that there are things a player can do that a coach can't. 

Demonstrating how to train professionally, and how a player should conduct themselves off the field, for example. Being a role model basically. That's something coaching staff can't do 

Also building relationships / helping with problems as more of an equal rather than as a coach who will inevitably be more distant.

Happy for him to do all those things you list because none of them impact our chances of winning football matches - JS being on the field often does and in a negative way.

[tdmickey3]

😂

11 hours ago, SW11_Saint said:

Totally calm honey-bunch, merely pointing out that whinging about Stephen’s all season is unlikely to change the minds of the people who employ 

Edited 1 hour ago by tdmickey3