Frank's cousin

Mr Dubai Phil - the Yorkshires were passable, but WTF is that you have concocted ? YOu do now realise that if Saints are to win the title you have to consume such a creation every weekend until the end of April

Yes thank you very much - Mr Sharp well done sir

Great thing I see is how the bad years/admin experience has changed most fans view the whole issue of spend and investment - Unlike thos down the road, its pretty clear to me that as a fan base we have learned some lessons, and respect the stable building, the measureed investmenta dn importantly appreciate the value that investing in infrastructure has over spunking every penny (earned or from any dodgy source) on mad attempt to gain promotion/avoid relegation/cup runs etc. Sure there will onlt be so long you can be 'building' for the future, eventually you want that future, but right now, despite the drama/excitement thats unfolding around promotion (and quite right to), the real benefit of the admin and Markus' takeover followed by NCs trategy has seen success on the WITH a unified and patient fan base - no surprize to me that the squad looks so unified and happy. SFC is a great place to be right now.

Club 'purchase price was around 12 mil - not 25 mil (the cost of paying off Aviva and Barclays) surely

20mil of sharelholder loan - as I understand it.... Possibly the best way to think about is to consider that Markus bought the club for £1. Already agreed via the administrator was how much Aviva and Barclays would agree to settle their positions - approximately 13 mil - ML paid this and all other minor creditors in FULL, but this cash in effect became a 'loan' to the club - In addition he also loaned approx 6 mil to the club as working capital to get us moving again - hense the 20 mil - with the proviso that this was repayable by 2015. So Markus' 'investment' in the club to date has been 20 mil including the purchase price, which is in effect converted to equity on any future sale.... We owe no one else anything. I also suspect that there may be additional funds available for Staplewood, but at this time its not clear whether this was money set aside in that original 20 mil, is in addition or is from our turnover - I suspect its additional cash to be loaned from a fund set up to fund the club which has now become Markus' legacy. So paying it back - It may be that the family (Markus's estate) wish to receive that money back from the back + their profit by selling the club in the future - As a premiership club we would probably be worth around 40 mil - so in effect the Liebherr estate is 20 mil in profit - that is in effect 100% return in 4 years - so you can see why Markus was so successful in business! - If teh club was sold tomorrow for 20 mil, we would be debt free and the Liebherr estate would have broken even - If the club was sold in 2 years time as a mid table stable prem club for 50 mil, the club would be debt free, and the Liebherr estate 30 mil in profit... thats teh way I understand it. The only slightly worrying thing is that IF the club were to be sold, a new owner could as we have seen at other clubs leverage the club and we could find ourselves once again in debt to the tune of the purchase price... Where my theory falls down is that it states that the loan is repayable by 2015 - If the club decide to use part of the prem revenues (should we get there) to repay this to the Liebherr estate, do they still 'own' the club? I guess they do so it would be like taking a dividend... so not sure about this. What I do know is this - Markus was a deeply honorable man or high morals an high integrity - he wanted to see us flourish and in Nicola, he had a trusted friend, a hard business head for sure, but almost certainly someone of the same moral standards - the provison made and legacy he left, we may never know the details, but I believe we can be sure we aint going to be in any financial trouble because of it - as long as we work towards a self sustaining model. Any sale I believe would only be to those who have those same ideals and standards. I think we have a lot more to thank Markus for, than just the saving of the club - I believe his approach and his trust in Nicola has also secured our future as one of success.

What did anyone expect... typical Tory budget that sees the rich better off and it paid for by the lower and middle - its what this country deserves though as there are many who seem to think the Tory's have the country's interest at heart rather than their own. Everyone knows the books need to be balanced the defecit reduced etc... and whatever Dune and his fellow right wingers like to shout about, the truth is there are more than one way of doing this (and thats according to independent economists) - The Tories have convinced the naive that the rich being better off is good for the country - while we pay more for fuel, more tax etc. Have to admit cant work out whether the Tory hoodwinking is because they are so deviously clever, or teh nation as a whole ignorant and thick as ****e

Dont know what to think really - the FACT is there is still a long way to go with 24 or 27 points available to the top 3 so there can easily be some twists and turns to come yet and there probably will be - what w ehave seen this season is no different to any other club at the top - look at Man City, lost to Swansea (unexpected) then come back and win 2-1 against Chelsea - happens everywhere. We have lost unexpectedly, but made up for this with some excellent results agaisnt WHU, Birmingham, Reading away comeback, Leeds away, etc. Doncaster at home WILL be tough, they are fighting for their lives and no matter what is said in training or the dressing room, I believe part of the problem is that in the past we have lost such 'statistically easier' games because we have not been psycologically 'ruthless' - in a awy we are TOO nice! We have players that are decent guys, top blokes who we can be proud of having at the club, but now they need to be a bit nasty and selfish and thrash these teams. Looking at the fixtures, I still think 90 will be needed to win it and 88 or so for second - 85 will see someone dissapointed in 3rd. Its in our hands now. 'Typical Saints'? Well I linked to think typical Saints is now how we responded to the Pressure from Huddersfield last season - just matched them win for win and broke their spirit in the end - but for the poor start and 3 games before Nige arrived, we would have beaten Brighton to top spot IMHO. Fitzhugh - I am sure you posted something very similar about this time last season! ;-) Whatever happens and mean this, even if we did miss out on an auto spot, we should look at what Nige and this squad has achieved and be proud - not only in the points total and finish, but in the way they play the game, the unity and enjoyment they obviously have in wearing the shirt with pride. For me, Promotio is not just about the fans and teh club as a whole, but for players like Kelvin and Lambo - work so hard, give eveything and really deserve their chance in the top flight and the extra cash they will have earned the hard way - not like the 'kids' with diamond studs and easy money that tempts promising youngsters away far too early. These guys, like MLT and Chrissy Marsden, are what I like to think of as 'Typical saints' We wont 'blow it', we wont 'waste the opportunity' - we will do our best, work hard and keep our feet on the ground - if that is not enough, fair play to those who beat us. BUt Ihave a sneaking suspicion that we will win this come the end of April. COYS

Ok lets summarize - doing thsi for my own good and need input from the knowledgeable on this to correct: 1. The current situation - they have shipped out some high earners on loans and have agreed wage deferrals with others so that we can assume there current opperating costs are now likely to be covered by their revenue from gate recipts and normal FL payments/trading etc (or at least the monthly cash flow is sorted, but the liabilities have not really changed - just put off to the end of the season) 2. They are due to pay Gaydamrk an installment soon? how much? and is this covered by the anticpated revenues 3. they are due to pay an installment of the CVA (old one) in April -so either they have these funds available OR they are not planning to pay this installment given that a sthey are now in a new administration, they will be classing Baker Tiley CVA as a creditor (nonsecured) and they will get their cahnce to vote for or against this when teh time comes Questions on this: a) Would the FL classify this as a failure to of the holder of the golden share (old or new co is potentially irrelevent) to fulfil the obligations of the original CVA or would they only take such action IF a current CVA is not agreed? I asked this question of the football league and got a brush off that they could not talk about the situation at portsmouth (despite the fact that I did not mention Portsmouth in my email ;-)) b) Even if a new CVA is agreed which includes an agreement from baker tiley to accept less - how will this be viewed by the FL as they have still in effect defaulted on the last CVA? (although in theory that was under premier league rules and under their jurisdiction rather than the FL - something else that does in theory provide the FL with an escape clause should they chose not to punish Portsmouth as a result of previous CVA dilution - 'not a FL club when this ws agreed') 3) so now we assume that Portsmouth will get to May - but that they will have build up additional debts as a result of deferred player wage payments and the subsequent return of loanees... 4) Has Birch discovered a way of telling Chinney to feck off about his 17mil? 5) this would mean those with a say in agreeing the CVA would be Baker Tiley, CSI, HMRC and the football creditors - would they get one? 6) BIrch says 'buy the club debt free' .... well possible if the purchase price is simply teh cost of meeting teh obligations of the football creditors and an agreed new CVA which could be as low as 12 mil or so...... 7) no buyer and toast?

Might be heading down to that one as well from Fife - going for away tickets form the club though

feck teh Turkish test... that would be funny as feck - 28000 tax inspectors - singing Sha La la La la la .. ho the feck is laughing now - Think we could get them to play the Spinal Tap classic 'Gimme some money' over the PA prematch as well?

Thing is though this really just depends on your generation - how many years do you go back for the 'old' football experience - remember before the late 60s, early 70s' there were always plenty of kids - rattles, scarves what have you - the modern day equivilant is teh Jesters hat and family sections - It was only the cultural tribal hooli shift of the 70s and 80s that made football the more male dominated experience some of a certain age look back on with fondness - you could argue that the 'clensing' of football through high ticket prices, all seater stadia and kids in jester's hats was really just wrestling football back from the sad state it was in during the 70s and 80s - naturally if 'those were the glory days of youth', its easy to see why so many hark back to this is the 'real experience'. Dont mock teh Jesters hats too much - these kids will be tomorrows loyal fans - would you rather they were still behind steel cages, feeling uncomfortable or threatened on the walk home? The issue of affordability is more of a concern though as this does mean that SMS will once again see a shift to a more affluent 'prem only fan' - all adding to the clubs coffers, and happens at every club. Its not so much 'new' fans I have a problem with, but the the fact that the pricing does impact on many that go through bad times and lower league as well as top tier.

...Only one way! ;-) go by volume not weight, or numbers - This makes 6 Get a measuring Jug - Drop in 3 eggs and mix - should be about 1/4 pint - add same amount of whole milk Pour contents into mixing bowl Clean out mixing jug and dry off Measure out about 1/4 of plain flour Sieve into egg,milk mix Whisk/mix until no lumps - (get some air in there) Season with salt and pepper Transfer back to jug and leave to stand for a couple of hours - not in fridge unless doing mix day before, but you want the whole thing to be room temp before using - Important! Heat oven to 190/200 c (fan assissted) Use a 'muffin' tray - deeper and fill about 1/4 full with veg oil - get that really hot in oven Pour in mix to top of each whole and shove in oven for about 25-35 mins - DO NOT OPEN oven door whilst baking... Bets feckin yorkshires around - will be about 12-14cm tall !!

Age old conudrum and the realy beauty of the game - the fact its unpredictable - gain wins you dont deserve and lose some whe you deserved to win against a side who have one shot at goal... more importantly is how you react. We seem to have some that like to have a go at the squad either way.... saying we dont have the the balls when we fail despite domintaing, yet not acknolwedging we do when we scrape through.... cant fathom them out at times.... As Adriansfc points out, overall it evens itself out and its definitely not 'luck' that has you in the top 2 for 3/4s of the season - what we need now is our fair share to keep us there until the end of April! ;-)

Think this is driven by panic - the panic to ensure survival sees the mediochre/lower half clubs tend to focus on a more negative game with older 'expwerienced' pros - they tend to be risk averse regards younger more exciting players o even having 2up front! Its a vicious circle - they buy the 'names with experience' on bigger wages and then they are desperate to survive because of the size of the contracts they have signed up for. If they can they sell on these same players to the newy promoted clubs ! I want saints to WIN and win well, so promotion should ALWAYS be the aim. But any ambition needs to be matched with realism. We need to accept that its going to be tough and get used to losing/drawing, more than we win for at least a couple of seasons whilst we add slowly and sensibly to the the squad - as we see, half the battle is confidence and unity and a well integrated squad - the whole sale changes tend to mean the 1st 3 months are spent bedding players in by which time its a tough catch up (look at leacister this year, or QPR etc) - will it be as much fun? well losing is never fun, but as long as Nige still strives to entertain, rather than going down the 'panic' route, it should be. I think what may change a little is that teh pressure will be off a little - from a fans perspective anyway. Although not part of the plan (and rightly so) relegation, would not seem such an 'end of the world' moment, in that we have been there and done that! Tickets, pricing? NOt going to be easy to get right and I hope no one jumps on the clubs back immediately if tickets aint £5 at match - ambition costs. Why is it that so many fans of so many clubs always feel it should be the owners who fund it? It needs to be balanced. I think we can expect the £30-£35 average, I'm affraid, and yes that will price some out the market - that's life sadly - plenty of things I cant afford etc... I know football is different, but we will suddenly be doubling most players wages, yes we will have teh TV revenues (if promoted) but it still al needs paying for... at teh end of the day, if we demand and get cheap tickets, we would have to accept a cheaper and less competitive squad, no right or wrongs here, just a sad case of reality.

Like I said a few pages back, you need to grow some boys! ;-)

Gentlemen, as pleasent a distraction as the juggly norks may be, one feels only the nuns will do... make it so!

Come on you lot grow some - bunch of girls at time 'worrying' mid match - believe in Nige - he will have a word in their shell like and De Ridder with the winner on 87 mins ;-)

TBF, he's probably not alone in that. Afterall, the rivalry is part of our local footballing culture as well as theirs. Thing is, it has become impossible to feel any sympathy because right now, the shear scale of their financial problems and because of the hideous way in which they have avoided a punishment that truely fits the repeated attempts to gain some sort of competitive advantage compared to other clubs with similar revenue restrictions etc.... And quite simply their constant refusal to acknowledge they have 'gained' anything from this masterpiece of financial mismanagement. Footbal authorities seem clueless or spineless in dealing with the financial mess some clubs ahve gotten themselves into and if there is bitterness, it's fair to say part of that is down to the simple fact that when we were (rightly) punished for our own recent administration, the effects of the -10 were far greater despite a pitance of debt compared with their 120 mil + the recent unknown amounts - there is simply no consistency here, nor is there a scale of punishment that is appropriate - therefore the only one many of us see as truely just is if they dissapear up their own arseholes - If the FL had the balls and the will, I am sure a suitable punishment could be given that would allow survival, but would act as a far more appropriate warning/deterent to other clubs treading a similar line.

Funniest thread in a long while

That's the problem with them own the road. Their inability to separate the issues and understand the subtle differences. 1. Borrowing money to invest in a playing squad - there are two factors here a) the cost of purchase in the assest - the cost of which is usually written off over the length of the contract and b) the wages paid and what that means to cash flow. In our case we have in effect borrowed from our owner - a respectable and ethical family, for the purchase of some players, offset against the revenue received from sales - In our case this borrowing is in effect converted to equity should the club ever be sold, so is not debt in the true sense of the word as a new purchaser would have to pay this as part of the purchase price - only if a new purchaser leveraged the club would this then be a debt so to speak. There can be good business to be had from investing in players as some can increase in value with old on - I would hazzard a guess that Morgan schneiderlin will be worth a fair few quid more than the 1mil paid a few years back - same goes for investing in the academy and academy infrastructure - can yield some nice revenue generting streams as well as reduciung the need to constantly buy players - this is what we have recently done AGAIN - the 'risk is low; because although there are 'borrowings' - the investmnet is in areas that GENERATE revenue and will cover the development cost within a short time frame. Importantly, we have not 'broken the bank' in terms of wages - yes we are probably slightly above where we would like to be in terms of wage to revenue ratio - at a guess around 60%, when the ideal would be no more than 50 - but its manageable and we have players who are easiliy sellable and their wages are not so ridiculous that other clubs cant consider them.... So, in a nutshell, we have invested WISELY in areas that will yield a return, not simply slung mponey at players and agents and transfers 2. When does debt become cheating - this is where their ignornace is truely astounding... I will say it one more time in simple terms so that corpse can understand. It becomes cheating when FOR WHATEVER REASON, the club fails to pay its debts off or service those debts to the agreement and satisfaction of those who loaned the money. There can be some sympathy when this loans were provided for sound business development - infrastructure etc, something that has material value and also will be invome generating for the LONG TERM - as most clubs do not have the resources to spend 100mil cash on a new stadium for example - spending fortunes of borrowed cash on players and transfers is simply a level of risk that is so stupid it is laughable - as this undoudtedly provides a competitive advnatage, the FL quite righly punish clubs with points deductions should admin occur as a result - However, can it really be justice that a club who has written off 120mil + on...er nothing but player wages and transfer fees end up with teh same punishment as a club that tried to build for teh future and went into admin for the sake of 300k?.... there is simply no way that is fair.... Personally I am not in favour of big borrowings even if serviceable - the Abramovic model, whilst legal and certainly serviceable, is nonetheless creating a less competive environment, but how can you stop rich owners going mad with cash? Anyway, Pompey cheated their way to anything achieved whislts they were spendinig more than they earned the moment they stopped paying for it - same as we will call oursleves cheats the moment we fail to service the monies we owe to the Liebherr estate. However, one note on that - the latest figures show a TOTAL liabilty to the Liebherrs of 20mil (CORPSE included in this is the 13mil paid for the club in satisfying our liabilities to Aviva and Barclays) - We have player assetssprobably worth 15-20 mil, a ground, a training ground with more promising youngsters - and sit top of the NPC - On promomotion it is likely we would be worth approx 50-60 mil - so in effect the Liebherrs would be 30-40mil in profit should they choose to sell... no issue there. The only danger would be if they did sell to someone who levergaed the club to be able to buy it saddling us with debt - It is this loophole the FL and FA need to close - If you dont have the cash - feck off. In addition to avoid the chinney situation, they should also make sure that when owners 'lend' monies to their clubs, it has to be as a 'gift' or without any security - this would remove all the tyre kickers and chancers

Was that intentional? Comic genius (or complete lack of self awareness) if it was. Pap makes alot of sense, offers a fair compromise to the the situation - a desire to offer the chance to folk to own their own home, with the realisation that safeguards and controls need to be looked at to avoid the same problems that occured in the 80s...what''s not to like? I never understood those whoe desire to support a particular party means they stop questionning whether its right or not or look for fairerr and more rationale compromise - the Tory's have always been the worst at this, lapping up every word uttered from tehir leadership without question. FFS, True politics is IMPROVING an idea through debate and dialogue with all sides. Tory idea improved through THINKING...

Maybe I am being dense, but I think that 180mil tota includes ALL the debt incluidng the football creditors and the secured (so all those element that have been repayed...already from arachutes etc) so its a bit of a misleading total - the only factual way to look at this is the simple sum of revenue over that period versus revenue out/owed and I dont think we have an accurate picture of that as the 'books' seemed to change according to what would prevent HMRC blocking the last CVA. I think the guy who posted that about Chinneys 17mil does have a case to some extent - it was a gamble and it failed - however what he fails to mention is that this 'gambling' began with Mandrich - who had teh sense to get out before the realization hit that the contracts entered into gain theiur promotion and subsequent success saw the debt increase to 38mil in the first prem year... and the rest have kept gambling. I know corpse will say others are doing the same... and that is right, and tehre will be others that as a result of failing to service that debt will be in the same ****e - and be labeled cheats as well... although I ahve always been for sane financial, prudent management, its nnot teh debt that is cheating, its the inability to service it that is. FWIW, I would have had some sympathy had they invested 100mil in infrastructure and then been caught out by the economic times or relegation - at least tehy would have been trying to build a future, but as this went on players wages and transfers, the high risk gamble on success that was unsustainable, they realy need to look hard at themselves - they need to overcome this denial and start again with pragmatic realism - they need a big dose of self awarness and then the self respect and respect form other fans and clubs could begin to return. Whilst they continue to blame everyone else from The FL to owners, whilst still basking in cup success, they wont move forward or get any true sympathy from the footballing community.

Thing is Donny hold WHU and doing ok againts reading will be a BIG wake up cal to the lads - we wont be caught taking that one too lightly.

Arh... but this is the catch 22 situation... We are all enjoying the competive nature of the NPC because we are top dogs and winning more often than not - because we have a good squad for this div and some talent. If we dont go up, we potentially lose Lallana, possibly Rickie and any bright young things that play 5 games and are corrupted by agents and the bright lights of the prem... so how would we fair next seaosn in the NPC without the momentum and without the creativity we get from Adam? Some are not too enamoured with the prem because we know it will take huge bucks and stupid wages to attracyt players capable of ensuring we are competitie enough to not just survive, but gain a mid table safety zone... by its vaery nature boring and predicatable. Football is about winning and about enetertaining and there is nothing great about being mediochre. However this is where we need to learn patience. For those young folk of the want it now generation, this is what us old farts had to learn as we had to save as kids before we could buy something or work two jobs etc... rather than get it now on credit and pay nowt til 2027... that way was the pompey way... or buy now , never pay would be more accurate, but it pleased the fans witha top 10 finish and an FA cup. If we are serious about them being a bunch of cheating c***s . we need to demonstrate this by shjowing patience - accept we will have our work cut out to survive year 1 in the prem whatever the spending level, get behind the lads as one when its obvious losing every second week is undermining confidence and possibly eroding the unity and spirit of teh last 3 years - fans play an important part in holding that together p- get on their backs and things unravel quite quickly. We need to see what the plan is - 3-4 years before we can realistically think about top 10 and a UEFA spot... and thats if we survive thoe searly seasons... at the very least we will go down with 48mil in parachute payments that will do very nicely when we are debt free... alot will depend on how the funding is structured, whether as loans or loans converted to equity as the value of the club increases etc - all fine, unless relegated and the liability of those loans exceeds the value of the assests.... This is why we need patience.

Fans desperately screamig for the board to spend some 'feckin money', getting quickly disillusioned with Adkins and Cortese for quietly going about their business in a financially prudent way, saying we invest too much in the academy on not on the first team, getting angry everytime Cortese does something that has a commercial return long term, but costs money now (that should also be spent on the first team), complaining that our sensible wage cap is ruining our chances of success and prem survival... basically same as last time we were there as fans patience with steady growth after two cracking seasons is at a zero level.... in effect very quickly forgetting how everyone was so critical of the cheats down the road and several other 'fecked' clubs who spent big without a long term view of the consequences when the money dries up..... ...sadly I think this is quite likely, symptomatic of the 'want it now' culture.... would be nice to think there have been some stark lessons learned over teh last few years, not least witnessing what is happening at Portsmouth and various other clubs.