Frank's cousin

Classic Thread which once again highlights how so many see everything as black or white - Crouch - you must either Loathe him or be bending over backwards gripping your arse cheeks in anticipation for his 'donation' Jeez, cant we just accept that these guys like most mortals have pros AND cons? They all do, does not make them evil, does not make them gods, yet some of the sychophantic hyperbole on here is cringeworthy, as is the rather daft total dismissal of the first post. Cant we look at these guys logically, give praise for the positives such as his donations (although we could do with the 2 mil now ;-)) and criticise the crass and embarrassing such as his bucket shaking and radio interviews about the 10 points....? The question we should then ask is does the good outway the in terms of future involvement.... for me its a clean slate, his gaffs just too costly.....

Thing with Klinnsman is that he was more of a talisman - a motivator for the world cup squad becaue like very few he has a WC winjners medal to prove he could do it - the tactical nous when with the German national team came from the guy who has the job now Joachim Low. With Bayern, I think to be honest it was more to do with the humiliation at Barcelona - the fact that his 5 best players were out seems to have been overlooked... and teh fact that Barca were unstoppable that night - hes also still elarning his trade.

If we go out of business - anything 'new' wont be the same team I have supported fro the last 36 years (since age of 4 ;-)) so would probably just give up on it all....

Well Klinsman's available ;-)

Redknapp - quantity over quality? 140+ transfers in 4 years at West ham... and we think Saints wasted MOney... teh contracts he entered into for players at Pompey are crippling them financially, they would be worse than us but for Gaymandick's propping them - any wonder he was kept on a tight leash financially?

I think rightly or wrongly the attendence being hit was dopwn to Lowe in that he appointed JP and Wotte - had that worked out and we had been miod table pushing pllayoffs we would ahve seen bigger attendances irrespective of Lowe, - because iy failed and were ****e, the level of interset dropped compounding teh problem, so Lowe need sto accept that although it was not his pressence that caused the reduction in attendence his actions were ultimately responsible for it. We have to admit that outside teh 15000 or so hardcore, the remianing 30,000 occaisionals simply dont want to see mediochre or crap football...

Spellig wots you're ploblem? ;-) - seriously though Duncan, I was referring to the ONE line on this in what was as you say a good report, because the books on the surface dont show any misdoings - and the auditors would surely have picked up 40 mil?? IF and its a big IF anything was proven, then thankfully those responsible would be in need of legal advice followed by learning to shower with extreme caution!

Just a quick question - hypothetical - If Lowe came back with money and a plan - but as a result fans stayed away so it went tits up, would that be Lowe's fault or fans? TBH I think most fans are more pragmatic - if there is money which leads to success, most wont care who is involved - whether its dodgy russian arms dealers or the 'duckhunter', success on the pitch is what leads to full houses

I would suggest we are careful with unfounded allegations. - seriously just take the time to read through teh last 4-5 years annual accounts - I am no 'forensic' accountant, but the maths do add up... you might not like what everything was spent on and we certainly 'wasted' a few quid, but I could not see anything that suggested any fraud, let alone on the magnitude that has been alluded to - seems to me that this is just a vicious rumour that many enjoy spreading becaus eof those it allegedly implicates... If any has been involved in skulduggary they will get found out and go to Jail without collecting £200 and rightly so, but I susupect we wont see anyone in need of a Community Chest Get-out-of-jail-free card any time soon...

All those talking about this in the past and now have done is add up the sale price of those players we have sold since relegation - none have taken into account the payoffs of contracts, agent fees, the cost of new players and loans, sign on fees etc nor the shortfall everyyear of revenue v costs - I am surprised teh journo did not print out the last 5 years Annual financial statements and do the simple maths.... lazy crap again

Its fairly comon for these sort of rumours - Ex pros have been on air spouting this nonosense as well. A fraud on that scale - over 50% of the turnover the last 4 years, could not have been missed by the INDEPENDENT auditors evry year - so I woudl be amazed if this is anything other than another piece of junk journo copy. If it has happened, then at least all the bastards involved would face jail - but this is really highly unlikely - the sums dont even add up.

I think you can afford to wait 2-3 weeks and see what happens - Sainst is the club we have now, warts and all, the history both good and bad, and all that has befallen us is what makes us who we are. Lowe wont be back.

Could NIck run it any worse than Lowe, Wilde or Crouch? ;-)

I am just struggling with the negativity. I fully appreciate healthy scepticism, because i have also been concerned that fans, although very willing and dedicated, can let their hearts rule their heads when it comes to serious management decisions, and that can spell disaster. I have also in the past been somewhat cynical of the Trust because it was teh same old same old names involved and when teh same folk always put themselves forward, its easy to fall into the trap thats its just for selfish reasons, that tehir motivation is egotistical rather than altruistic. So what made me change my mind? Quite simply I got the chance to meet NI and SG. Cant say I would agree with everything they do, but I realised that if ego was involved it was minimal. The only reason we see teh sam names reappear is because no one else is prepared to get involved - When they do, they get the crap..unjustly.. and so I make no apologies for supporting these ideals - as idealistic as they may be, as difficult and improbable as it amy seem, but small acorns ARE needed for mighty Oaks, and they do need fertiles soil to florish... lets just say its worth watering these saplings to see which have the strength and support to grow. Cynicism and scepticism are healthy - ask the questions and keep these groups honest and accountable - but do it in a constructive way, encourage them to think about all teh consequences and get help where its needed. I would like nothing more than a new owner with experience and money who has teh clubs best interests at heart, but the reality is that the administrator will be looking for the best deal for creditors, not for fans and we may end up with someone less able or less experienced but with jsut enough money to take control, yet no real passion for Saints, just driven by ego...I hope not, but the fans groups at least have the club at heart of all they do. Stu and the rest, i do understand and appreciate your concerns, they are natural and it is important to not blindly support.....something some of us said about Wilde when he first showed up.... but its also important to be open minded to new ideas.

TBF Alpine, Although i dont necessarily agree with us escaping via a loophole, it is there and I suspect the club took legal advice before making that decision. We are assuming rather a lot - I think the club was expecting Barclays to support until Season's end or they had reason to believe adminsitration could be avoided, either way, I dont see teh club making taht decsions without being confident of the legals... and it may yet prove correct if the club do appeal this decision.

I have not said they are not all culpable, and the impact of the decisions taken by Lowe and others are well documented, but you have to look at how it appears on the outside and to the FL - ultimately there is a bottom line - they will argue that the monies received from those sales should NOT have been spent as these were needed when the parchute paymnet stopped to cover the existing contracts - as we had no guarrantees we would be able to sell these high wage earners on.... as such from the bigger picture, we did spend money to try and fund a promotion push... and now we are in debt, thats how everyone will see it and you cant really argue against it. we took taht risk, it failed and ultimately we wer unable to sustain it.

We are saved then.

Indeed and if he stops doing one, he wont get criticised. (From me anyway ;-))

Hi again Does that mean his current focus in on selling SLH as a group, or is he also considering potential buyers of individual assets?

Thanks for te update Derry, appreciated. Would it be possible for you to summerize in bullets the main aspects of what the combined group intend on doing and how this would work practically? Also, do you think its possible for the group to perhaps work with any major party, or would you let them get on with it if something concrete comes along?

Think there is a difference though between blame and understanding what went wrong. IMHO, no one set out to feck us over. All concerned ultimately wanted success for SFC for whatever reasons personal or otherwise, the end result would have been the same for fans - a successful footballing side and if as a result a few folk did well out of it personally, I would ahve had no prblem with it. We have debated, argued with some vitriol about the reasons and why and all we have discovered to date is that we still dont have enough information to fully understand what went wrong, why certain decisions were taken, and why certain approaches worked and others did not. We have seen that interanal wranglings did not help - indeed probably made things worse, and tht is the sadest part because if all parties wanted to show that they really did care, there would ahve been no better way than by uniting under common ground and leading by example to fans. Fans are by their very naure, loyal and pragmatic, we can cope with mistakes, we can cope with the truth that you cant beat the world if skint, and we can forgive these things IF we see effort, dedicationa nd committment from all involved at the club, not back biting and mud slinging. Its no wonder fans ended up doing the same if we see teh examples shown by those involved from Lowe's public gaffs and fan insults, to Wilde's misleading PR friendly, Manifesto, to Wilde and Crouch's falling out, to Lowe and Wilde's inability to work with rather than against what had been put in place on their return... we have only speculation as to why and i guess its no wonder that we draw our own conclusions - which because they differ so much has seen further fan disharmony. Whatever happens now, some will be happy with, others will find concerning, its teh nature of us, all different opinions, but if we can at least place the emphasis on teh positives and common ground, I think the next chapter might at least give us an opportunity to heal the rifts if we are prepared to move on.

I would agree uyou cant ring fence it like that, but from any way you look at it we diod spend money on a failed promotion push which we really di dnot ahve because Wilde never followed up on the investment promise - Crouch may well be the victim in all this and it gives me no pleasure to see him in this plight, but he was naive at that time - too trusting that funds would materialise. Whatever we think to teh FL and outseide world we did something that was a risk, a risk that is discouraged by the rule book.

Least I'm consistent ;-)

To be honest I dont know. The legal loophole thing for me is ****** and I would kind of hate the idea we got let off on a technicality. Where i struggle to see the justice in it though is that teh principle debt ahs not been accumalted through some rash fantasy spending on a few moments of glory - but on infrastructure that benefits teh fans, and community and football at large, namely the stadium. The debt we do have with Barclays is teh more difficult case to argue because its almost the same as teh 7.5 mil we spent under Wilde and Crouch - on players for a promotion push - exactly teh thing for which this punsihment was designed to prevent happening.

I think you need to reread the posts here, unlike those anti Lowe threads, there has not been the usual vitriolic rubbish here, Most acknowledge and respect what Leon has done and applaud hism for those positives he has brought to the club, but just because of the good things does not make him somehow immune to criticism of those errors he has made, the same goes for anyone. Last nights interview was unnecessary, he could/sould have declined rather than making these mistakes. If he enjoys and wants to e in the media spotlight as part of his association with the club, he needs some media coaching or he should remain tight lipped.