hypochondriac

I had a very good conversation with an extremely intelligent and moderate Muslim once. The conversation got onto Salmon Rushdie and the right to be offensive and I was shocked at how much his tone changed and the aggression in his words when he told me that there was never any circumstance where mocking Islam is justified and that basically Rushdie deserved what he gets. Like I said, this was such a moderate, generally mild mannered man and I did not imagine he would say something like that. We know that that's the very tip of the iceberg.

No we don't. What a silly thing to say.

If you really look into both religions and particularly their followers there really is no modern day comparison between the two. I'd urge you to watch the video I posted earlier, particularly the bit by Sam Harris about halfway through the video where he defines what a jihadist is and why it's impossible to reason with them in any way they would understand. They love death more than we love life and consider it right and completely just for innocents to be slaughtered for their cause. It made me consider things I hadn't done so before.

They obviously aren't going to concede defeat are they. That would mean certain death for Putin for one. I just think it's worth bearing in mind that imposing such a crushing defeat and then conditions on Germany after WW1 definitely contributed to the strength of feeling that was at least partially responsible for WW2. IMO allowing Russia to save face in some way may be the smart thing to do (which is what I assume Elon Musk is going on about) otherwise we may risk things escalating in a few years of bad feeling and simmering tensions.

So Israel is responsible for some nutter jihadi blowing up a train in London?

Really interesting conversation here with some valid points on both sides:

Whilst I agree to some extent, we don't really have an end game here as yet. Without allowing Russia to save some sort of face it's not likely to end well. Leaving Russia with nothing to lose isn't a good idea either. Maybe they will assassinate Putin before something really terrible happens but if not then I'm not sure how this ends.

I think there's grains of truth in both interpretations of the facts. Like in most wars there's propaganda on both sides. I'd just like to see evidence of similar persuasiveness to the evidence that the IDF has produced, whichever side you believe.

You don't think a soft touch Israeli government would be attacked?

Your interpretation of the video is selective and bizarre. It said that the civilian population support Hamas who have a clear hatred of Jews. Like I already said, that isn't definitive evidence just because someone from Hamas says it - unlike you I don't swallow Hamas propaganda just because they state something - but if true, its clear that a number of civilians support Hamas who hate Jews. The IDF say in the video that they were targeting tunnels near or under the flats and so logically they may have missed the target or they targeted it on purpose. The reason they didn't give a warning was because they didn't intend on hitting the flats according to them. I don't know the truth of that and neither do you. You believe that the IDF are targeting civilians and it's something you swallow because Hamas told you so

Every bit of information I've read about the subject says that boots on the ground in an urban warfare scenario massively favours the defenders and would undoubtedly lead to much higher Israeli casualties.

OK not a lot of evidence, maybe more or the same amount of evidence than the detailed video and written evidence of the IDF that you dismissed as propaganda and PR with no evidence for that claim. That video was very interesting because it supports what I suspect to be the opinion of many Palestinians - that they support Hamas against the Jews and that Hamas are happy to sacrifice civilians for the greater good. That's what I've said all along.

Interesting cheers. So the Hamas fighter says they are happy to sacrifice themselves and civilians and the civilians support them. Obviously not definitive proof of anything but if true, perhaps shows that some in the civilian population is perhaps not as innocent as they claim (I suppose the fact that Hamas were voted in to lead the is also proof of that.)

Bombing parts of the South (parts which I assume to be something to do with Hamas unless shown evidence to the contrary) is not evidence of indiscriminate bombing. Reducing casualties by instructing civilians to go South does not mean that there will be no casualties, nor does it mean that mistakes would not happen during a war scenario which is what this is. So like I said, I haven't seen evidence of indescriminate bombing in the South.

I didn't say it was proof. I said it provided evidence of the things they are doing. You may disbelieve or disprove the video and written evidence from the IDF and then maybe I'd take your denials of the evidence seriously. Some assertions from someone at the UN isn't evidence of anything.

That isn't an example of indescriminate bombing in the South.

I'd like to see evidence for the assertions of Gutteres.

Please provide evidence of indiscriminate bombing in the South which is what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth.

The UN are a politically captured organisation who can't define what a woman is. I'd have to check myself if they told me that the sky was blue.

I'll comment on the Israeli ground offensive in the South when and if it happens. If they clear out the North and then start indiscriminately bombing the South giving civilians nowhere to go then that is not right but it's speculation at present.

Behave egg- you're better than nonsense like that. Where is your evidence that Israel have not done the things it has outlined on their web page to reduce civilian casualties? If It's your belief that the claims of the IDF are entirely fabricated and they've mocked up a web page with fake videos then presumably you've got evidence to prove this fakery?

You don't believe anything the Israelis say anyway so it's irrelevant if they said what they were going to do.

Thanks. I agree with Martin it's been disappointing that we haven't scored more and I do expect more from some players. Sulemana, Alcaraz and Adams in particular.

Jeez. I thought you weren't responding any longer? I'm tired of your petty comments. I've never claimed to be a blind supporter of everything Israel does, I just don't believe there is a moral equivalence on this issue. Again, why have Hamas not gone to the effort of creating a detailed fictional account of fictional actions they are taking to avoid civilian casualties? Why do they not have video evidence of actions they are taking to do so?

Feck me. Why have Israel gone to the trouble of detailing actions they have taken to reduce civilian casualties? Why have Hamas not done the same?