hypochondriac

If it stays like this, Martin can't then say the players are learning, this is a totally different style. I'm glad because I didn't think he had it in him.

You need to be itk

I'm glad Martin has the balls to drop Manning. I didn't expect that.

Very early days but this looks a better shape so far.

He's at rb where he is ant do much damage and was actually half decent for West brom.

Assume Armstrong will play every game if fit. Glad someone other than Manning is playing. Also glad Charles and Downes are in midfield. I wouldn't have picked Fraser or smallbone but overall not awful.

It's not impossible no but its pretty unlikely now. We'd have to see a pretty sharp turn around in fortunes and plug those holes.

I do understand that but then why did we get in a load of players on loan, some with options to buy in the event of promotion? Either the aim was automatic promotion as they said, or the aim is to learn a complete new style of play and play the exact same way every week with the result that we slowly get better a little bit at a time. I don't think it's realistic to appoint someone like Martin, ask him to make wholesale changes and stick to his philosophy come hell or high and then expect us to go for automatic promotion. We'd have been better writing off the season, crossing our fingers for playoffs with some good end of season form and then going again next year with a core of players who do understand the system and can implement it better. All we are going to do this year is fall below the expectations of the majority of fans for the season and piss the long suffering fans off further and then we will lose Sulemana, Fraser, Adams, KWP, THB and try again next year but with worse players.

What's wrong with changing things up a bit from game to game, changing up the formation based on who we are playing? No one has yet explained why having a philosophy means having to make the same mistakes constantly until we get a bit better at it.

Bit harsh on Edozie.

It's not that they can't see it, it's that Martin accepts it and think it's worth conceding goals in this way if it helps us to play the way he wants us to. He's a slave to his system.

So essentially he is saying exactly what most fans said on here before the game about what was wrong and what we were going to do. We did exactly what we said we would do and therefore lost the game.

That's a much better team. I'd go with that.

Because the point is that in my opinion, Ballard has a greater chance to positively affect things this season if he is given the chances that Mara is currently getting (and let's remember Mara started a game a couple of weeks ago so he has had more than the odd five minutes). I'd rather have Ballard in that position than Mara.

So is Mara developing by coming on for five minutes here and there? For my money Ballard would do more to help the club this year if we had sold Mara and given him his role for the season. Very difficult for him to do worse abd I'd rather see him play than seeing Mara fail off the bench for another season.

I don't mean anything extreme like selling all the experienced players and solely playing the youngsters, I'm just saying I'd rather see Ameyew and Ballard coming off the bench than Mara and Sulemana or Fraser at the moment.

I had some more thoughts about this today. If we are going to lose and perform poorly I think almost every fan would prefer to give some of our youngsters a chance to see what they could do. At the very least it would give a more supportive atmosphere at home. I'd much prefer to see the likes of Ballard as the backup this year over Mara (it would be difficult for Ballard to perform worse) and I'd probably give Dibling and Doyle a go in midfield as well and of course Ameyew who must be gutted to immediately be behind Sulemana in the pecking order. What we have just isn't working and you never know they could surprise us and outperform the so called first team. Persisting with proven failures is just bumming everyone out and leading to this terrible atmosphere.

Wasnt that one of the stated reasons for bringing in Fraser and Downes?

That's the exact same team I posted except I wouldn't have Adam Armstrong anywhere near the team.

Which is why it's absolutely ridiculous to be having pops at the fans for this situation. It's actually unbelievable what we as a fan base have had to endure the last few years and this is the cherry on the cake. Losing in that manner and by that margin is frankly obscene.

If anything I'd like to see us be less brave. Knowing when to get rid and hit it long is just as important as pretty passing and possession.

The aggregate of the last three games is 10-1...

Exactly. You could even look to transition to this new style of you're hellbent on it but you coukd do it gradually over a season.

Again, name the fan base that has gone through the last three years that saints have - particularly at home - and wouldn't react in the manner our fans do. I think we have forgotten some of the stuff they have had to endure over that period, it's truly shocking and I think at one point we were second bottom of the entire football league in terms of points won.

It means he wants them to pass it around at the back, even if their instinct tells them not to and even when the opposition know that is what is going to happen and specifically press in those areas to counter it. It's somehow brave to pass it around almost every time rather than mixing it up a bit and going long when it is warranted to prevent yourself from having to do a piece of skill to keep the ball or simply giving it away.