egg

Yep. They've given Everton plenty of time to make up the points, and anyone impacted time for a tribunal appeal, etc. It's action, but action that ultimately won't serve as a punishment.

Jeez, we've got a forced evacuation from a hospital, kids being bombed in the apparently safe south, the only drinking water conveniently right next to the Egyptian border, and you boys are flirting about utterly irrelevant bollox. Get a grip.

Nope. And JWP, an actual midfielder who's in great form, is at home. Ridiculous.

Twenty

Attempt

I think you're focusing on the impact of the dysphoria and seeing the extreme behaviour as a reason to regard the dysphoria as a mental illness. You've got to go back to the beginning, not focus on the effect.

I accept that the WHO aren't infallible. This issue is one that I think is most closely comparable to sexuality. It's impossible to put ourselves in the position of someone being born into the world where there's an assumption that they can accept their birth gender and/or their presumed heterosexuality, but just can't. I just cannot see how a person on either scenario can be assumed unwell, but can see how society not accepting them (and probably labelling them unwell) could cause them to become unwell. It's a really tricky subject.

I think there's a degree of chicken and egg with some issues. Take alcoholism. I know recovering alcoholics who have presented as depressed (suicidal, etc) and at first blush have been diagnosed as such. However, a spell in the priory has quickly identified the deeper issue being alcoholism, being a condition in its own right and not caused by depression. Transfer that to gender dysphoria. If there is depression as a consequence of gender dysphoria, it's the dysphoria that needs addressing primarily, not the depression.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. You'll get the same answer every time you ask me whether I think it is or isn't.

It's not my position. It's a medical position. I don't need to justify or argue the cause. However, I think there are very clear differences between this dysphoria and others - false equivalence to use on your phrases.

Your first paragraph highlights the distinction. They have the dysphoria, then issues can come. That doesn't make the initial dysphoria an illness. I get why you question that it should be an illness, but I think the homosexuality comparison is a fair one. People aren't ill if they feel at odds with either the gender or assumed sexuality that they are born with.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. The WHO say so. I agree.

The WHO do not regard gender dysphoria as an illness. Quite rightly imo. Men with gender dysphoria don't want to be men. Gay men don't want to have sex with women. Assuming you don't believe the latter to be mentally ill, I'm struggling to see why you think the former are... I think that some people in this discussion (not necessarily here, but the wider discussion) view those genuinely struggling to accept their birth gender in the same way as the people who choose to alter their gender for whatever reason. The latter could very well be unwell.

Having the initial thoughts and feelings is not an illness, much like with homosexuality. Thereafter, the confusion, frustration, feelings of social exclusion, etc are what leads to mental health issues and sometimes extreme behaviour. The lines are fine, granted, but there are clear distinctions. I have a long-standing friend who tried to top himself when he realised he was gay when he was 16. He wasn't ill, he was gay, but he couldn't comprehend why he fancied men and felt wrong cos that was societies view back then. He tried to drown himself and was sectioned under the mental health act. He became ill as a consequence of his non illness. That distinction applies to this issue imo.

If they were, it doesn't alter that mental health issues relating to gender dysphoria does not make it a mental health issue of itself. It's quite bewildering that people can't/won't see the distinction.

I'm sorry to hear that badger, very sad. We've got a family friend who has spent time in a facility up north for treatment when she was some stupidly low weight, 4ish stone I think. She pulled through fortunately and has recovered. On the subject, anorexia is a mental health condition. That it is, doesn't make gender dysphoria one.

Science doesn't always have the truth, but suggesting that people must be mentally ill just because, doesn't feel like a challenge of the science. It feels like an opinion with nothing to support it.

And you said my unemployment analogy was crap!

Yep. We all have moral compasses and should have an opinion on what's happening in the middle east. I'd never be so arrogant as to challenge the conclusions of medical science though.

That doesn't make much sense Del. However you cut it, it doesn't become a mental illness because you want it to be. Second point, I have no idea. How do gay people know they're gay before they're sexually active? They're both situations that I can't relate to, but both are people feeling different to that which is traditionally expected of their birth gender, but neither person is mentally ill.

Nonsense. We're all qualified to have a valid opinion on whether Israeli government action is over the top. That's a world away from believing that doctors are wrong, and that gender dysphoria must be a mental illness cos you think it is.

The example was deliberately absurd to highlight how absurd your point was. Gender dysphoria is something that happens to people. They don't choose it. They also don't choose any mental health issues that may flow from it. It's not complicated.

We're all qualified to have an opinion on what's happening over there. None of us are qualified to know better than the WHO or NHS medics.

Having mental health issues as a consequence of gender dysphoria does not make gender dysphoria a mental health issue in itself. Lots of things can lead to mental health issues. Example, unemployment can lead to mental health issues, but that doesn't make unemployment a mental health issue. Gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition.

Suit