egg

I largely agree with that, but I think 2 should more accurately read "Can ordinary Israeli Jews live peacefully next to an Arab state - Yes". I'm not as convinced as you that the Israeli state and some of its Jewish population will allow a Palestinian state and it's people to live peacefully. I point to the settlements and settler attacks as reasons.

Which is one of the reasons we'll never have peace. The Hamas idealogy of no Israel is as unrealistic and dangerous as the Israeli desire to occupy. Something has to give. I've never said that Hamas wouldn't stop killing Jewish Israeli's. It's you who seem to think that Jewish Israeli's don't (won't) kill Palestinians. However, there's no chance if peace if the occupation continues.

Break

If there was evidence that it was on Israeli missile, you'd think that the Palestinians would be telling us all about it.

I'm not suggesting that Israel shouldn't exist. I'm also unsure of the relevance of Jewish Israeli's living as a minority amongst Palestinians. What's needed is an Israeli state, plus a Palestinian state (or Gaza Palestine and West Bank Palestine), but until the Israelis get out of the west bank, and leave Palestinians to have autonomy, we'll have no chance of getting near peace. All this "if Hamas could decimate Israel it would" talk is nonsense because they can't, and will never get near that capability. They know that, and we all know that. Your belief that Israeli Jews will merrily live alongside Palestinians unrealistic. They antagonise and chip away at the Palestinians. Look at the settlements in west bank. Look at the almost daily settler attacks on Palestinians. Look at how the idf support and assist with that. Consider why the Israel government have purchased 10,000 assault rifles to issue to Israeli citizen, to include in mixed communities and settlements. It's a clusterfuck of a situation, but what did or didn't happen years ago doesn't solve a thing now. The international community need to get a grip on the situation and proactively support a multi state solution.

Do you seriously think there is any prospect that could ever happen? It's not an actual achievable objective, be realistic. Do you think that Israel are doing anything other than turning Gaza into the rubble and wasteland that they vowed to? If you stand back and take an objective view, only one side could decimate the other, and only one side is giving it a good go.

I'd never buy a webuyanycar via auction. I've only sold to them when I've had something my conscience wouldn't let me sell to a private buyer, and I think lots of shite find their way to them. There is plenty of direct from lease stock and other good stock available from BCA, and it's a good way to buy.

I've never bought from one of these guys, and never would. One of them is tied in with we buy any car, cleans them up, marks up the price and sticks them on line. One of the others buys straight from auction and does similar. I'd never pay the premium for buying from one of these sites, but I turn cars around frequently (25 ish cars in the last 20 years) and prefer private sellers, or auction. BCA list their cars in the same way as their sister site (cinch or cazoo, I can't remember which) and you get the same detailed physical description, but the advantages a lower price and choosing your seller. You can, for example, go for ex lease cars in the knowledge that they've probably been well maintained.

I'm not going there mate. It was only a matter of time before people made this a SoG thread rather than focusing on the actual issues. All I'm saying is that we've had you refer to Israel as the Jewish state, which it is, so there is no criticism there. However, that is a term that in itself is a bit of a contradiction given that all Israeli's aren't Jews and all Jews aren't Israeli. By now SoG ought to have figured out the acceptable terminology, but terming the bloke anti-Semitic cos he hasn't isn't necessary imo - just cos he keeps giving you a stick to beat him with doesn't mean that that you need to beat with him with it.

Israel is referred to as the Jewish State, but not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are Israeli. It's easy to see how there can be easy, non anti semitic misunderstanding.

I think it's clear from the tone and content of all of sog's posts on the subject that his issue is with Israel. I can't fathom why the penny hasn't dropped now that the semantics make a big difference, but hopefully after Badger's post it'll sink in.

Cook

Calling out naive comments isn't inflammatory. It's a forum. Don't shoot it down. Suggesting that someone has been radicalised, and calling people cunts, pricks, anti semitic, and the other nonsense we've seen on this thread is inflammatory though. I'll leave it here hypo. I'm of the firm view that you are blinkered to the reality, depth and nuances of this situation, and seem unable to look at anything pre 7/10. It's clear what you think about my position.

Explain how the Hamas actions of 7/10 justify the IDF, in an area not controlled by Hamas, killing or maiming kids days later (and before) with live ammunition for throwing stones? Where's the defence of Israel? It's wanton killing.

Not agreeing with a couple of people on a forum doesn't make me wrong Hypo. It makes us disagree.

How does any ideology based on hate get eliminated by mass killing and destruction? And yes, I maintain that it's naive to believe that you can smash an ideology, and a movement, in this way. I don't have the solution, but it isn't what we're seeing.

What was the motivation of the IDF in these situations? If not death of Palestinians, what was it? Shooting kids with live bullets in response to throwing stones is wilfully murderous on any assessment. https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-as-protesters-throwing-stones-are-shot-by-israeli-snipers-this-is-part-of-normal-life-for-the-west-bank-12987221

Bless. I just don't support murderous regimes, whether Israeli or Arab Whelk. Give it a try.

Apologies, I misread Israel want no Jews dead as Israel want no Palestinians dead. I CBA to go through the rest as we're plainly poles apart. However you cut it, there needs to be collective effort, discussion and change to have even a modicum of hope for that. However, the Israeli response is only going to make things worse.

Wow. And all that from an Israeli state trying not to kill civilians, or damage civilian infrastructure. As the UN said, the rules of war have to be followed whatever the provocation.

Anyone suggesting that there's no desire for Israeli's to kill Palestinians is living in some kind of fantasy world. I know it distorts your bizarre perception Hypo, but it's been happening for years, and is happening today.

Jeez. Where to start. You have said above that Hamas want all Jews to die. You then support that by referencing a holy book. You then reference one missile in Iran that couldn't take out all the Jews. Your statement is just daft. You also said above that no Jews want Palestinians to die. Have you overlooked the many killings of Palestinians by the IDF and settler's? You also overlook that Israel don't want a Palestinian state. You overlook that they grab land and settle. I'm not sure why you feel that Hamas don't need to negotiate. Both sides do - you can't reach a bilateral agreement unilaterally. Your question is based on your flawed perception, and conflate Jews and Israelis. Israel's government kills Palestinians daily that it does not have to. That's a fact. It's killing people in Gaza in the thousands that it doesn't have to. You can't overlook that and naively sat that nobody on the Israeli side wants Palestinians dead.

Ready

I'm glad you highlighted this. There is a perception of the Hamas ideology being slung around by people who refuse to acknowledge that Israel are at fault in any way. It seems to be nonsense created to justify a position.

Both sides in this dispute have to negotiate with an enemy who kill their people. There is no prospect of achieving anything if people essentially shrug their shoulders and say what's the fucking point, or steadfastly maintain that just one side needs to alter their behaviour.