ENSKIED

They did? We are to assume you were there then? Many people believe what they want to believe despite the evidence - no matter what. The whole point of the last 27 years and the last two very painful years in particular whence after a 25-year battle all the evidence was duly weighed, was to ascertain precisely what happened away from the sort of bile you vent, something the authorities DID NOT WISH TO DO AT ALL, attempting to cover the whole sorry matter up in order to protect their own. Hence of course the 25-year long bitter battle to get matters into an appropriate court. IF, you still want to stick to your bias despite the evidence, I doubt for example you ever attended the court over the last two years, concomitant to not having read a single page of trial transcripts at all - anyway should you still wish to pontificate and postulate from your comfy armchair as you have, then do please continue on and thereby prove why certain mindsets similar to the one you exhibit here, initiated a very painful 27-year long struggle for so many people, whilst also, dint of some aspects of the media painted Liverpool and its inhabitants in very poor light indeed.

You're right they did! A footy lesson.

Then pulled them up and duly knocked 'em out.

Syrup Of Figs?

The person I replied to didn't find the post bizarre or at least did not claim such. Indeed, he /she thought it showed they may have hit a nerve. You do find it bizarre, fair enough but at this moment in time I would then feel compelled to introduce the concept that many people find the "truth" "difficult", that is what the post, a post you find bizarre, is attempting to deal with and you finding it "bizarre" may well paradoxically speaking constitute proof of the matter under discussion, in that the truth of matters often constitutes or takes on the form of the "bizarre" for many amongst us, "The truth is always akin to a punch in the eye, in that it ALWAYS offends" [Voltaire] You might fall into such a category. If you consider you don't fall into that category do then point out the bizarre elements of the piece and time permitting we'll discuss them.

Yes I think I covered that aspect in my reply to Napalm [or certainly attempted to do so please re-read] but if the Saints say won the European Champions League, were then again Finalists in 2007 and were the better team in that final though they lost and during that whole period were EUFA ranked as the No 1 team in Europe. Also won the FA Cup and League Cup [all achieved in the last 10 years] would you be so dismissive of it, in that such would not constitute a "trophy of note"? Now dealing once again in the TRUTH not what some fans merely wish to believe, I remain strongly of the opinion Saint's fans to a man, woman and child would be ecstatic to have accomplished that lot over the last 10 years as would 98% - 99% of ALL professional teams in Europe, teams whose fans in truth can only dream of achieving such such football feats . . . . . as winning or even getting to the final of the European Champions League.

Of curse not, so I must confess that when if comes to the "truth" I suffer from a form of OCD, do forgive me. Truth now of course being a philosophical plaything that suffers from deconstructionism and subjectivism in this so called "enlightened age" but given what we went [and go through] I hope you can forgive that.

The poster in questionJxgrSaint stated quite categorically "Liverpool don't win anything either and everyone hates them..." the "EITHER" was in direct response to an earlier post concerning the Saints winning "nothing" in terms of trophies by Grafittio. To make a comparison between Liverpool and the Saints in terms of winning things is of course eminently allowable on the basis that absurdity often engenders its own comedic elements and highlights to what levels people may stoop in order to be vindicated in their own minds. The contraction "DON'T" in this also becomes crucial because they, Liverpool, DO win things, to imply otherwise is being disingenuous. They have won so many things that in fact they have won more trophies than any other English Club. Not to allow for that interpretation, the writer should have perhaps written "At the moment Liverpool are not winning trophies . . . . . . " S/he did not. Possibly to create the impression Liverpool DON'T win trophies AT ALL which given the context of the piece in relation to the Saints, has to be a fair assumption in regard to its true meaning. Because they have not won a trophy for three years doesn't mean they "DON'T win trophies"- they do. I'll attempt to nutshell the matter, now if the writer were to have said say Rochdale or Chester "don't win trophies", there would be no area to dispute. The fact is Liverpool do win trophies the record of such, despite people's own convictions, hopes and wilful blindness, remains there for all to see. Obviously their success as with Man U's makes them a target for hate, hence they too are among the most hated clubs. Another very relevant caveat to add to this and I believe it is fair to introduce it to the discussion, is that many people are very prone to stereotyping. Most of us know the score; the German's have no sense of humour, the French are merely the French and therefore totally dislikeable, Americans are big, brash and ignorant etc. etc., there are psychological comforts to be found in stereotyping and that brings us to the "Scouser", so many within these shores love to wallow in the stereotyping involved there. The Sun "newspaper" the biggest selling rag in the country by a country mile on the basis of "we don't care about who makes the news or who runs the country has long as she has big tits" , "was used" to tap into this rich vein when it was deemed necessary by the authorities to cover up the Hillsborough Disaster by the spreading of malicious lies and total misinformation. Knowing full well in doing so, so many would be so willing to swallow the same wholesale, after all it was the dirty horrible Scousers involved was it not! Many people and fans of most clubs, of course, willlingly lapped it up and let Liverpool fans constantly know exactly how they felt, but after a fight lasting some 25 years, many, many people were proved wrong, in the process one of the biggest cover-ups in British history was exposed. Many of us hate to be proved wrong, indeed many people won't accept being proved wrong despite all evidence to the contrary. Thereby many fans of other clubs having been "proved wrong" hate Liverpool FC and Scousers all the more . . . . . .

Footballers, like most of us, follow the money, they are essentially mercenaries and as long as City pay the wages they do [they were the highest in world team sport] they will attract top footballers and they will consequently win things. The more they win, the more "fans" they will ultimately attract. Gareth Barry remains a decent indicator of the modern game, he wanted to leave Villa and constantly stated in interview after interview statements such as "I will only leave to play for a team in the Champions League", Liverpool stepped in who were in the Champions League the deal was on the way to being finalised, at the same time Prince Mansour bought City who were NOT in the Champions League. Barry duly signed for City, the money they offered did the talking. Ironically enough the recent Delph transfer remains another rather distinct example to further help establish such matters. The following makes for a decent read: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/may/01/benoit-assou-ekotto-tottenham-hotspur

A few more bought trophies and eventually they won't be, "neutrals" will start switching allegiance. I'm already starting to see one or two City shirts where we reside, and in the boozer some City fans have rather magically started popping up.

Hardly true of course, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3011860/Liverpool-biggest-club-trophies-won-edging-rivals-Manchester-United-silverware.html

Liverpool are obviously attempting to break into the Top 4 once again and collect some silverware en route. These days for the Top Clubs it tends to distil down to "how good is your bench?" In that it's not [as we all know] about a First Eleven or even First Fifteen anymore, it's about who slots in and out when attempting to challenge on all 4 fronts, League, Europe, FA Cup and League Cup WITHOUT really weakening the team. The transition for likes of Lallana, Markovic, Lovren, is perhaps harder than many of us give credit for, now of course they have had a season to settle and IF they do settle and play as well as they "can", then they added to the other acquisitions means the truth of the matter is Liverpool [like it or not] will have a very strong squad indeed, one certainly capable of winning something. As for Rickie Lambert I think he'll be on his way. For he, the call came too late but it did come, and no doubt the consolation is he's made some very serious money out of it. The likelihood of him even getting a start in the League Cup would appear this side of a series of calamitous injuries fairly remote.

The thing is with Sammy he has a heart of gold and is the genuine article, a man with his heart on his sleeve and humble with it who, wherever and whenever he can, shuns the spotlight and is uncomfortable with praise. Unfortunately for the game [business?] there are FAR too few Sammy Lee's left in the Billionaires playground we call football, it's good to see he has landed at a great club like the Saints where he is obviously appreciated, he deserves it and one thing the Saints will get in return is 100% dedication.

:D:D

Yes I understand, I was utilising it for my own purposes in regard to my reply, for example I was going to mention the Poet context ergo the "Milton section" but considered the "Aggro" more suited in attempting to "Miltoning" juice out of our exchange. So in regard their sense of humour well be that far from me Milt! Shurlock has already basically covered that part of their renowned abilities in his post above albeit briefly, and I would hate to steal any of his thunder as it were . . . . .Incidentally, I don't think Brendan is a Scouser [which of course you are probably aware], might want to be one of the honorary sort though such as . . .... Dean, Liddell, Young, Shankly, Paisley, Kendall, Keegan, Dalglish, Rush, Rafa Benitez and so on and so on but he has a fair way to go yet I would imagine before he gains that sort of status. A chap goes into a shop in Liverpool, "Any Irish sausages today, their love?" The counter girl stares hard at him then gently inquires, "are you Irish?" To which the man takes some exception, "If I came in here and asked for Kosher meat would you ask if I was Jewish?" "No" she answers. "Or if I asked for samosas would ask if I was Indian?" "No" she answers. "Or if I asked for Halal meat would you ask if I am say Iranian, or a Muslim?" "No!" She answers emphatically. "Then why the bloody hell did you have the bloody temerity to ask if I was Irish?" "Well, sir this is Halfords."

A moniker ending in "aggro" would appear to suit Milt On such a basis outlined with Sammy involved the Saints are "donalded ducked" then in terms of winning anything. Mind you . . . . . .

Just watched the highlights of yesterday's stage of the Tour De France - bloody Scouser won it.

Given this almost symbiotic relationship of Saints, Scousers and Sinning then, a la, Case, Lambert, Adkins and Lee, could we perhaps succinctly sum it up in terms of a Job Lot 1:21 'tis Sunday after all, "The Scousers giveth and the Scousers taketh away, blessed be the name of the Scousers"?

The West civilised? Really? Are you certain about that? As one mere and quick example take a sober observant stroll around the binge spots of Southampton or any major city for that matter, on say a Friday and Saturday night . . . . . . . .So it shows you what the power of persistent populist Propaganda can achieve. And that being the "case" as well as being excellent at football it would also appear they have an extremely powerful all pervading panache for Propaganda. Is there no end to their talents?

Just a passing thought really [pun intended] for all the vitriol directed at "Scousers", they have had a significant part to play in the Saints history in recent times, Case, Lambert, Adkins and Lee. Whilst in the process sounding something like a legal firm.

The smart money would be on . . . . . . well would be on money. And lots and lots of it

Someone posted something on this Forum, a post I can't immediately put my grubby little fingers on [apologies] , which I believe helps sum up the matter, so from memory with my own thoughts added . . . . . . . . . . . a "selling club" is one that bases its business model on the sale of players. The transfer fees form a major part of its revenue, repurchasing and much else, in the end they survive dint of the "necessity" to sell. Man Utd, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Bayern etc. do not rely on selling the likes of Ronaldo, Van Persie, Di Maria, Bastian etc. so they are not selling clubs. Of course they also truly compete and win things so such "selling" is part of a successful cycle. [As soon as "selling" becomes detrimental to that cycle then of course that's another matter and it's in that latter concept some clubs find themselves]

Attempting to introduce a note of realism, Father Time will tell all, if Saints are still in the Prem and consolidated within such, say five or so years from now employing the same "showcase club" philosophy then arguably it's bucked football history and worked. However, there are cynics among us who might say "showcase club" is merely bandying semantics, indeed camouflage, when to all intent and purpose it means the Saints will remain a "selling club".

If the blame game were to be the name of the game and somebody had to carry the can, I'd be tempted to point my bony finger at the authorities such as EUFA for not implementing the FFP on a much better, stricter and wider basis. They implemented the FFP for obvious reasons and at the first challenges by the Big Boys they ameliorated them. You see the inherent danger is a European elite could win [er BUY] the trophies season on season and make football certainly at the Top, predictable to an eventually boring level which might in the end have a detrimentally telling effect on the game as a whole. Ergo last season I think most of us would readily agree that the Championship was in truth a far "better" and a far more exciting league than the Premiership, which not for the first time was really over around November time. Watching Bournemouth break through was newsworthy and so exciting and thus in essence good for the game. What a breath of fresh air it would be if the likes of the Saints, able to keep many of their Top players, were then able to break through and truly challenge and ultimately win the League Title / ECL . . . . . at least once in awhile.

With the right manager at the helm, that is always so important of course, tactically aware, confidence boosting and so on [and Koeman could have done it] yes a potential Title challenging / winning side and potentiality a ECL challenging / winning side. DEFINITELY a football team worth watching so much pace and skill. Such teams as dreams are made of!