suewhistle Posted 27 November, 2009 Share Posted 27 November, 2009 Been at footie training some coming down slowly by internet browsing. Any comments on the latest crisis in Dubai... Even I knew there's been a bubble there, but I wonder if the latest crisis will have any impact on any other footie club's finances?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlehead Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 I knew about the issues there at least a couple of months ago. Dubai has been f*cked for a while, but Abu Dhabi will bail it out when it gets what it wants. This is a fact. It really shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone and it astonishes me when journos on the TV say they are shocked. They are either very badly informed or they are proper Joeys. Also a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Ah, where to start..... Let's leave it with the old timers' standard comment down here Told ya so... more later :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 This isn't perfect but it is a bloggers simplification of what is going on. The problem is REALLY big and could cause global meltdown part two. Little Boys shouldn't play with Matches. They sure as sh*t shouldn't be allowed to play with matches surrounded by Gasoline. So, where to start? At the beginning maybe. The base law here is that any "immigrant" is only a visitor and must be sponsored by a UAE National. No right of citizenship. That extended to ownership of business - so that to have your own business you need an Arab who must own 51%. To get around this and become a business hub, Dubai launched Jebel Ali Free Trade Zone where you could have 100% ownership. Technically JAFZA operate as the overall sponsor. That helped cause the first Dubai boom, which was strengthened by all the other FTZ's Internet City, Media City etc etc. At no time could anyone except a local own any property. About 6 years ago Dubai "bent" the FTZ rules to allow "leaseholds" to be traded. ie you could take out a 100 year lease on a property in specific zones, but you could never own the land. For many long term businessmen, residents especially from Asian sub-continent this was what they wanted, security of tenure. In very quick order that bending of the rule got bent again to allow "freehold" but with very tight rules. The developer sells the freehold, but is the "technical" sponsor, so there are restrictions - the property could only be sold 2 or 3 times or had to be sold back to the developer. Now, add to this mix of local demand for long term tenure the "Madness" which afflicted most of the Western world - "Property Prices will always go up", the ease of credit and the lack of fear of debt. Stir with careful marketing and branding and woosh.... The land was allocated to the Prime Developers, they they sub-sold lumps to sub developers. The pent up demand saw 200% profits on off plan sales in 6 months. People couldn't stop making money. They bought one villa due for completion in 4 years for $1mil, paid 10%, 6 months later they had to pay a further 5% and the next day sold the villa for $2mil, making $850k profit. That allowed them to buy 2 villas in the next launch and on and on and on until you had people who started with a $150k bank loan signing up to build entire skyscrapers...... It was pure greed, the foreigners never bothered to check out the laws here, they just "assumed" it was the same as back home, and even IF we told them, they were so blinkered by the greed or the property always goes up they didn't listen. So the master developer launches a 1Billion project. He gets 10% up front, when he has that he uses it to... yep, launch a 2billion project. he gets 10% up front and uses it to launch a 4billion project. All the time, the money is spent on marketing, promotions, huge bonuses for the launch salesteams... And of course, alongside them are the Goodwins - free money for Brit bankers - property development in Dubai - have $1bil Bond for which the banker bags a $1mil bonus cheque. The Europeans couldn't give YOUR money away fast enough. It really was like the Emperor's new clothes, another week and DubaiLand, Bawardi - 4 km of Hotels in the desert, another Palm Island, Hell towards the end they planned to demolish 1/3rd of the old Dubai in order to start on a $100 billion property development... Jumeirah Gardens. Of course, EVERY development was "Executive Style Housing". Not ONE area designed as affordable for Middle Management, let alone normal White Collar workers to live... How could they expect to fill accomodation for 2.5 million "Upper Middle Class" people? and not one room for a worker? Add to this mix, more greed, corruption, bribery, doubling the build density so that the infrastructure (roads electrics sewerage power supply) isn't adequate..... Ajman and Ras Al Khaimah joined the party... all fed by "idiots who don't even check the local laws" pouring their pension funds into the place. Now, with the bubble and the debt, if you do not keep rolling forwards you crash and burn. Lehman Bros was crash and burn time. For those who had invested in "off plan" with many of the smaller sub developers there is no chance of them getting their money back and in many cases ever seeing a property. There is NO consumer protection legislation - Caveat Empor you muppets. For those with the bigger developers they will get moved around, they need to keep some cash flow coming in. So, today the basic rule is if they started pouring concrete into a hole in the ground then it will get finished. Anything else - forget it, they say "projects delayed" they meant cancelled. Here is how insane this was There are over $300 BILLION of "delayed" construction projects. What the HELL were you all thinking? Not just the guys down here, but all those "overseas investors" For us, Schadenfreude is the best term I have seen, this city filled with the get rich quick scum of the planet in the past 5 years. Living the Hello magazine lifestyle, when at heart they were just chavs. No respect for culture, people or even business sense, they happily paraded their credit card based wealth, and now go moaning to their rediscovered Daily Mail about how badly they have been treated and how awful it was to have to leave the Ferrari at the airport, their dogs in the desert and their Maids and nannies dumped as homeless immigrants, while they return to their caravans in Skatesmouth. I'll blog about some of the other drivers for the property bubble and ideas as to why Dubai chose to make their announcement on Thursday later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 I'll blog about some of the other drivers for the property bubble and ideas as to why Dubai chose to make their announcement on Thursday later Nothing to do with Eid of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Nothing to do with Eid of course. Well, probably.... But maybe not the way many think, more likely designed to spoil someone else's Eid..... and Thanksgiving..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 (edited) Well, probably.... But maybe not the way many think, more likely designed to spoil someone else's Eid..... and Thanksgiving..... A sort of "If we go down we take you with us" message? Edited 28 November, 2009 by View From The Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 28 November, 2009 Author Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Thanks Phil.. an even more interesting and lengthy reply than I expected and it sounds like you were getting something off your chest! Never been there but even from the little bits I saw in the press it wasn't a place I would have put any money (or at least not for very long!). So I won't look for an English teaching gig there then... besides Italy's a nice place to live even if I'll never be vulgarly loaded.:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 A sort of "If we go down we take you with us" message? So, why Wednesday night? All the media pointed to things being done and restructuring on the way. Early last week stories about Dubai raising $5billion Bond against 2 Abu Dhabi Banks.... Hmmm They were after $10bil from the Central Bank. Why would that have happened? Sheikh Mo appears in photos, meeting the Queen, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, sort of a State Visit without the State visit? Hmm the favourite scuttlebutt (or IMHO) down here is to blame the Americans. Something like 40% of the Trade of the "pre-property" Dubai was with Iran. You name it, it goes through Dubai. Every Multi-National here knows the rules on Iran and follows them to the letter, so their products flood into Iran... Iranian goods come the other way.... Meanwhile Abu Dhabi wants to build the Arab World's first "US Supported" Nuclear Reactor. Meanwhile, Israel wants to blow the carp out of Iran's Nuclear Weapons capability.... The Yanks drum up world support for tighter Sanctions against Iran, but oops there is a very big hole in the net called Dubai. So Israelis pull the Yanks tail who tell Abu Dhabi if they want a reactor they have to stop Dubai breaching all the global sanctions. Abu Dhabi tells Dubai we'll lend you the money for your bond but you have to tighten customs controls and stop selling to Iran so openly. Dubai is already in the poo. Many Arab Nationals borrowed heavily in the property boom and are in real trouble, their ONLY way to pay back the debts is to trade their way out, which means selling MORE stuff overseas... And along comes Abu Dhabi telling the guys here they have to sacrifice some 40% of their export trade..... And Dubai's answer was pretty damned clear..... But where it goes from here? deeper and deeper as other black holes appear. So Banks lent to Dubai to build stuff.... But how many Banks then lent to "Westerners" to buy property down here? And that property now is worth 40/50% of what it was listed at, but won't be built for 4 or 5 or 7 years... Sub Prime mark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Thanks Phil.. an even more interesting and lengthy reply than I expected and it sounds like you were getting something off your chest! Never been there but even from the little bits I saw in the press it wasn't a place I would have put any money (or at least not for very long!). So I won't look for an English teaching gig there then... besides Italy's a nice place to live even if I'll never be vulgarly loaded.:-) Nah we old timers aren't getting anything off our chests (apart from a hangover from the damned flu). What we are doing is finally getting the chavs out of here. Hopefully now they can all feck off back home and spend their days boring YOU lot across Europe (and Aus) with how much money they lost and how often they sh*gged Michelle on the beach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Interesting Phil. No disrespect, but does this mean that Dubai might become a vaguely pleasant place to be? And that there might be fewer trapped and enslaved construction workers from South Asia? Because whenever I've passed through, the place always seemed like the gilded gates of hell. I couldn't imagine anyone with a conscience voluntarily buying up there for their place in the sun. As for the westerners losing their shirts on get-rich-quick schemes, I suspect that they aren't in sufficient numbers in themselves to spark a crisis on the scale of the sub-prime disaster in the US. And they will bear a great deal of the loss themselves - even with hyped up bank loans. The bigger losses for banks will surely be the absurd property schemes themselves - the kind that our chairman friend down the road used to buy his Ferraris. I can well imagine what you mean about Iran, by the way. I remember what Jordan was like during the years of the Iraq sanctions. A lot of people got obscenely rich, and the border was like the wild west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 The only thing keeping the Dubai Economy going is my purchases of Old Speckled Hen and Phil's Sab Cavs. FACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Interesting Phil. No disrespect, but does this mean that Dubai might become a vaguely pleasant place to be? And that there might be fewer trapped and enslaved construction workers from South Asia? Because whenever I've passed through, the place always seemed like the gilded gates of hell. I couldn't imagine anyone with a conscience voluntarily buying up there for their place in the sun. As for the westerners losing their shirts on get-rich-quick schemes, I suspect that they aren't in sufficient numbers in themselves to spark a crisis on the scale of the sub-prime disaster in the US. And they will bear a great deal of the loss themselves - even with hyped up bank loans. The bigger losses for banks will surely be the absurd property schemes themselves - the kind that our chairman friend down the road used to buy his Ferraris. I can well imagine what you mean about Iran, by the way. I remember what Jordan was like during the years of the Iraq sanctions. A lot of people got obscenely rich, and the border was like the wild west. Many long traders here got insanely rich trading with Iran, then lost much of it in the local Stock Market crash. They just recovered in time to lose it all again in the property Crash.....lol muppets! The Asian labour problem is also not as simple as the Daily Mail types make out... Historically an example - a tea picker in Sri Lanka earns less than US$1 per day for back breaking work ($30 a month av). That same woman could earn $150 a month here as a housemaid with her electricty, accomodation and water paid. Now it may seem a pitiful amount in the West, but imagine a factory worker making 5 times the salary of his mates in the pub and for far less taxing work. One maid could house and feed her entire extended family... So in the OLD days, the same applied to labourers, they could come here, earn $150 a month digging holes in the sun or they could chose to stay in Asia hanging around in their village (ain't no dole there dudes) or IF they were lucky, digging holes in the sun for $30-50 a month. Over here, they had accomodation and food and basic healthcare. Sure they were worked hard, but while they may not have had a choice during their contract, you have to understand - be worked to near death but make money in UAE or scratch a mere existence in a remote village in Kashmir? Then the boom. Tens of thousands of labourers were needed almost overnight. But guess what, the MONEY was in building the Villas and Tower blocks, Nobody wanted to invest in Labour Camps, so all these workers were inported with nowhere to live - except for 40ft Containers in the desert. Again, Greed and a lack of "Holistic" planning. Remember, the growth happened so fast, the workforce quadrupled in less than two years, even IF they started to plan labour accomodation it was taking longer to build and demand was outstripping supply. Sure, Panorama et al did a great job of exposing the nightmares, BUT the DEMAND for the property came from - Overseas Investors. "You" all "HAD" to have a piece of the action, when a developer announced a slight delay even in the good times they were hit with a torrent of abuse and threats of legal action. Now the NEXT problem was the "promise" of "great riches" (well, $150 a month instead of $30 a month) but then when you lived in a small village in India, how did you get a job? The answer was the spread of "Recruitment Agencies' They are completely illegal in India and yet they flourished. In the same way that (many) builders in UK will do a job for cash, so blind eyes were turned here AND in India. These people who ripped off their OWN people were ASIAN, not Arabs, THEY demanded sums of up to $3,000 for a job, visa and transport to UAE, and of course, many unfortunate people agreed. They gave their passports to the agents and voila, trapped. Paying back the loans, living in containers, no money, no papers and no way out. $3,000 at $150 a month takes a long time to pay back if you have to eat each day. The larger construction companies were never the worst offenders, it was the smaller get rich quick subcontractors (and yes that included many overseas companies). What happened was inexcusable, but one really important point, making judgements from a "Western" perspective about wage rates is never wise. The flow of cash from the Gulf into Asia is a significant part of the economy of nations such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines And the sub-continent. Unfortunately they really are not treated well. After all Westerners love shopping in Primark etc where a 1.99 pair of jeans had to be made in a factory somewhere in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 The only thing keeping the Dubai Economy going is my purchases of Old Speckled Hen and Phil's Sab Cavs. FACT lol hey as ATC, you have to stay at work to get all the planes off the ground as everyone evacuates. Does that leave you as the man who'll end up having to turn the lights off? Meanwhile, first 3 house guests have landed. Am awash in Duty Frees - hooray! GJay has been on about watching the game at Goodfellas tonight. As it is a Cup Game and I have a 100% lose record down there I'm staying in and Duty Free Chateau Neuf Du Pape'ing tonight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 I wouldhave thought that the workers coming from Asia could be likened to all the Brits who have gone to oil platforms, as secuity workers in Iraq etc to get massive money to their own people.Ok the conditions of living etc would be different but still comparable re risks and increase in salary. As for us here looking at how the arabs are manipulating the asian workforce, enjoy your christmas shopping at all the high street stores. None can throw stones,, as we all live in glasshouses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 lol hey as ATC, you have to stay at work to get all the planes off the ground as everyone evacuates. Does that leave you as the man who'll end up having to turn the lights off? Meanwhile, first 3 house guests have landed. Am awash in Duty Frees - hooray! GJay has been on about watching the game at Goodfellas tonight. As it is a Cup Game and I have a 100% lose record down there I'm staying in and Duty Free Chateau Neuf Du Pape'ing tonight! The straw that broke the camels back .... the loss of tax revenue on all that wine .... you are to blame for the chaos Can't see Goodies showing our match when there's a full Premier League line up. Certainly not dragging my sorry arse down there on the off chance, especially as you say with our track record in there (and mine goes back far longer than yours and is nearly as bad!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 The straw that broke the camels back .... the loss of tax revenue on all that wine .... you are to blame for the chaos Can't see Goodies showing our match when there's a full Premier League line up. Certainly not dragging my sorry arse down there on the off chance, especially as you say with our track record in there (and mine goes back far longer than yours and is nearly as bad!!) Sunny actually rang Jay and confirmed it was on, he's on his way there now but like you, I want to win this game so no way I'm going there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 (edited) I wouldhave thought that the workers coming from Asia could be likened to all the Brits who have gone to oil platforms, as secuity workers in Iraq etc to get massive money to their own people.Ok the conditions of living etc would be different but still comparable re risks and increase in salary. As for us here looking at how the arabs are manipulating the asian workforce, enjoy your christmas shopping at all the high street stores. None can throw stones,, as we all live in glasshouses No, Nick, it isn't comparable at all. Here's a pretty good description of how it really works: "In their home country – Bangladesh or the Philippines or India – these workers are told they can earn a fortune in Dubai if they pay a large upfront fee. When they arrive, their passports are taken from them, and they are told their wages are a tenth of the rate they were promised. They end up working in extremely dangerous conditions for years, just to pay back their initial debt. They are ringed-off in filthy tent-cities outside Dubai, where they sleep in weeping heat, next to open sewage. They have no way to go home. And if they try to strike for better conditions, they are beaten by the police. I met so many men in this position I stopped counting, just as the embassies were told to stop counting how many workers die in these conditions every year after they figured it topped more than 1,000 among the Indians alone. Human Rights Watch calls this system "slavery." Yet the Westerners who have flocked to Dubai brag that they "love" the city, because they don't have to pay any taxes, and they have domestic slaves to do all the hard work. They train themselves not to see the pain." http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-a-morally-bankrupt-dictatorship-built-by-slave-labour-1828754.html Edited 28 November, 2009 by Verbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 No, Nick, it isn't comparable at all. Here's a pretty good description of how it really works: "In their home country – Bangladesh or the Philippines or India – these workers are told they can earn a fortune in Dubai if they pay a large upfront fee. When they arrive, their passports are taken from them, and they are told their wages are a tenth of the rate they were promised. They end up working in extremely dangerous conditions for years, just to pay back their initial debt. They are ringed-off in filthy tent-cities outside Dubai, where they sleep in weeping heat, next to open sewage. They have no way to go home. And if they try to strike for better conditions, they are beaten by the police. I met so many men in this position I stopped counting, just as the embassies were told to stop counting how many workers die in these conditions every year after they figured it topped more than 1,000 among the Indians alone. Human Rights Watch calls this system "slavery." Yet the Westerners who have flocked to Dubai brag that they "love" the city, because they don't have to pay any taxes, and they have domestic slaves to do all the hard work. They train themselves not to see the pain." http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-a-morally-bankrupt-dictatorship-built-by-slave-labour-1828754.html Not good I agree.there again where they come from is not a bed of roses.Am i happy I was born here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 No, Nick, it isn't comparable at all. Here's a pretty good description of how it really works: "In their home country – Bangladesh or the Philippines or India – these workers are told they can earn a fortune in Dubai if they pay a large upfront fee. When they arrive, their passports are taken from them, and they are told their wages are a tenth of the rate they were promised. They end up working in extremely dangerous conditions for years, just to pay back their initial debt. They are ringed-off in filthy tent-cities outside Dubai, where they sleep in weeping heat, next to open sewage. They have no way to go home. And if they try to strike for better conditions, they are beaten by the police. I met so many men in this position I stopped counting, just as the embassies were told to stop counting how many workers die in these conditions every year after they figured it topped more than 1,000 among the Indians alone. Human Rights Watch calls this system "slavery." Yet the Westerners who have flocked to Dubai brag that they "love" the city, because they don't have to pay any taxes, and they have domestic slaves to do all the hard work. They train themselves not to see the pain." http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-a-morally-bankrupt-dictatorship-built-by-slave-labour-1828754.html Not in anyway condoning the treatment of the labourers here, but I think a lot of journalistic license has been used. I would be surprised if any workers die due to the conditions they live and work in, although there have sadly been several worksite accidents due to poor safety standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 my mate is based in Dubai at the mo and is loving it.. he emailed and said he went to the york bar (or something) recently..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 (edited) Not in anyway condoning the treatment of the labourers here, but I think a lot of journalistic license has been used. I would be surprised if any workers die due to the conditions they live and work in, although there have sadly been several worksite accidents due to poor safety standards. Eric, I would be only too happy to hear that this is a single journalist's fantasy. Unfortunately, it's extremely well documented by a number of reliable sources, many of whom have had to dodge harassment and threats from the Dubai authorities, who have tried desperately to keep this all under wraps, and certainly away from people in Dubai itself. When Panorama produced a a piece detailing the appalling abuses, the BBC was threatened with all kinds of legal action by the Dubai government. What actually happened? Nothing, of course. Edited 28 November, 2009 by Verbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 (edited) No, Nick, it isn't comparable at all. Here's a pretty good description of how it really works: "In their home country – Bangladesh or the Philippines or India – these workers are told they can earn a fortune in Dubai if they pay a large upfront fee. When they arrive, their passports are taken from them, and they are told their wages are a tenth of the rate they were promised. They end up working in extremely dangerous conditions for years, just to pay back their initial debt. They are ringed-off in filthy tent-cities outside Dubai, where they sleep in weeping heat, next to open sewage. They have no way to go home. And if they try to strike for better conditions, they are beaten by the police. I met so many men in this position I stopped counting, just as the embassies were told to stop counting how many workers die in these conditions every year after they figured it topped more than 1,000 among the Indians alone. Human Rights Watch calls this system "slavery." Yet the Westerners who have flocked to Dubai brag that they "love" the city, because they don't have to pay any taxes, and they have domestic slaves to do all the hard work. They train themselves not to see the pain." http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-a-morally-bankrupt-dictatorship-built-by-slave-labour-1828754.html Again, no denying that what went on and still does is appalling, HOWEVER, these articles keep missing out important facts. 1) these workers are told they can earn a fortune in Dubai if they pay a large upfront fee. When they arrive, their passports are taken from them, and they are told their wages are a tenth of the rate they were promised These promises are made in their home countries by Citizens of their own country. These fees are (in India) paid to Indian Companies owned by Indians. These companies keep the passports, they make the promises on salaries. It is only AFTER they arrive in Dubai they realise that they have been duped. This is nothing less than Human Traffiking, it makes no difference whether it is labour camps or prostitution, people exploit the weak. It is ILLEGAL in India and it is controlled by the Indian mafia. How (for example) would a British Company recruit 1,000 labourers for a project they won in Dubai - they went to a labour supply company, who went to a man who went to a man. It is immoral illegal but it is not JUST Dubai's problem. You are better off asking the Indian Government and the Indian Airlines why they don't stop it at source than requoting the Brit Press all the time. They are ringed-off in filthy tent-cities outside Dubai, where they sleep in weeping heat, next to open sewage. They have no way to go home. And if they try to strike for better conditions, they are beaten by the police As I pointed out, the growth was so fast, there was nowhere else to put them. Again, it was wrong, but the customers demanded their properties were finished on time... As for strikes - well that is another of the great issues, using a Western "viewpoint". Western laws and culture have evolved over many hundreds of years. 40 years ago this place really was just a desert trading outpost. The FUNDAMENTAL difference is that down here you are a guest. You come here with Caveat Empor. If you assume it is the same as UK (as I did when I arrived and found to my SHOCK that I had to work Sundays) you either adapt or leave. You have NO rights, if you don't like it you leave. A strike is illegal, however emplyees ARE allowed to make a case at the Ministry of Labour and there have been many instances of labourers doing things the RIGHT way, travelling to the Ministry to show their support for a petition which in almost every case has been upheld. Throwing stones at trucks in the desert gets the obvious response. Now again, the PROBLEM comes from those who really are at the bottom of the pile, those who have been conned/sold etc. Since the Panorama documentary a great deal of work has been done. Arrests have been made, new camps have been opened and the worst of the slums have been cleared. The fact that those actions co-incided with the general downturn helped speed up improvements but the fact is, like with the children forced to ride camels, they did take notice and did start to do something (but that sort of news never makes it to UK papers) Now the central issue time and again is about "Values. Perception or Filters". This is NOT Europe, it sure is not the UK. Political Correctness blinds many to the fact that in the real world you have to make a choice. You can choose to try and better your life by paying an illegal agent to take you to the promised land, but when your choice was stupid who is to blame? You can buy a house in a country where it is still technically illegal to own property in the way you do in UK, you make your choice, who is to blame? I disagree with the corruption of the Political Classes in the UK, with the lack of moral standards in the "yoof" culture. I chose to bring up my children in a land where I never feared for them getting into Drug cultures, where they could go out at night on their own even at age 10 and come home by taxi ALONE. Where their whole future life was not tarnished by having some teacher with a political agenda to ram down their throats. Where I don't have to lock my doors and where if I had a nice car it wouldn't get keyed by some jealous no brain. For every labourer who was conned, there will be 10 who were not conned, who are working and making more than they ever could at home. But that doesn't "sell" papers. The critical issue is to stop the slave trade while implementing safety and improvements for ALL the workers. Dubai is not nor ever will be anything other than a place where man rips off fellow man. It is and always will be a City with no soul. But remember, it is a Muslim City, that is the way things are. And, when they win World War 3 it is the way everywhere will be. I love what this place has given me the chance to do and to see and to understand. But you are right, it is also a hell hole for the blind, foolish or unwary Edited 28 November, 2009 by dubai_phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 my mate is based in Dubai at the mo and is loving it.. he emailed and said he went to the york bar (or something) recently..? It's a well known Chinese Takeaway, popular with tourists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Eric, I would be only too happy to hear that this is a single journalist's fantasy. Unfortunately, it's extremely well documented by a number of reliable sources, many of whom have had to dodge harassment and threats from the Dubai authorities, who have tried desperately to keep this all under wraps, and certainly away from people in Dubai itself. When Panorama produced a a piece detailing the appalling abuses, the BBC was threatened with all kinds of legal action by the Dubai government. What actually happened? Nothing, of course. A lot has happened, it is not enough, but it IS happening http://business.maktoob.com/20090000001540/Dubai_launches_random_labour_camp_checks/Article.htm http://business.maktoob.com/20090000001127/EXCLUSIVE_Inside_Dubai_s_labour_camps/Article.htm http://business.maktoob.com/20090000001154/Dubai_police_warns_firms_over_rights_abuses/Article.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Eric, I would be only too happy to hear that this is a single journalist's fantasy. Unfortunately, it's extremely well documented by a number of reliable sources, many of whom have had to dodge harassment and threats from the Dubai authorities, who have tried desperately to keep this all under wraps, and certainly away from people in Dubai itself. When Panorama produced a a piece detailing the appalling abuses, the BBC was threatened with all kinds of legal action by the Dubai government. What actually happened? Nothing, of course. Do you really think if the journos had proof that a 1000 Indians alone died each year they'd simply stop publishing because of pressures from The Dubai authorities? Poor working / living conditions well documented - I agree. As Phil said it is their own fellow country men who have duped them into these conditions and yes it wouldn't happen if The Dubai authorities really looked into it, BUT 1000's (if any) dieing each year .... I sincerely hope this isn't true, but some documented evidence needs to be shown to back up such statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 The whole of the arab world(and everything else) is going to go pop once the oil runs out anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Do you really think if the journos had proof that a 1000 Indians alone died each year they'd simply stop publishing because of pressures from The Dubai authorities? No, I don't. But what a very odd conclusion to come to! Why on earth would you think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Phil, your reply to verbal above is a bit steretypical. I live in Britain but I'm not faced with any of the stuff you have described. I'm sure there are rough parts of Dubai too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 No, I don't. But what a very odd conclusion to come to! Why on earth would you think that? I didn't come to that conclusion, completely the opposite .... the point I was trying to make is that if they had any proof of so many people ending up dead surely the story would be the biggest story on the news around the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Phil, your reply to verbal above is a bit steretypical. I live in Britain but I'm not faced with any of the stuff you have described. I'm sure there are rough parts of Dubai too... Totally agree Hypo. My point is simply that there is a mind set in the UK. It applies to everything, celebrities, sports stars and the like. Build something up, hype it to death and then bash it. Reading much of what has been published even in the past few days, there are so many errors, so many regurgitated 6/8 month old facts it beggars belief. The attitude of every Journo is "ha ha they went bust" there have been very few (apart from some of the independent experts) who have tried to actually analyse why or how. What I learnt down here is how simplistically I used to view Johnny Foreigner when I lived in England, I was programmed by the media. The stories are stereotypical, but see what the reaction is when you get a stereotype thrown back at you. There is a lot more going on in the world at the moment. My point is that the media had jumped onto the 'let's all have a disco" recession is over bandwagon. This should be seen as a bloody big warning shot across the bows. Who lent the money to employ the labourers? who borrowed the money to buy the property. It is not as siimple as it is being made out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 (edited) I didn't come to that conclusion, completely the opposite .... the point I was trying to make is that if they had any proof of so many people ending up dead surely the story would be the biggest story on the news around the world. Sadly untrue. Third World people getting killed for profit and otherwise being treated like medieval serfs does not make the biggest news story. It rarely does. If you want an example less close to your home, think of Bhopal. It's estimated that something like 25,000 people have been killed or suffered horrific injury as a direct result of Bhopal. But does it make the headlines? Often enough that Union Carbide, the American company that caused the accident, have been able to walk away from their obligations to the victims scott free. Edited 28 November, 2009 by Verbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washsaint Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Interesting stuff....having been a few times and my brother having lived there for 3 years, my observations have been: A lot of ex-pats are chavs with no sensibility to the local culture or respect for the local culture Dubai is an obscene place driven by greed and money, totally false and with no soul The locals (Emiratis) treat the Asian workers like scum: forcing taxis off the road, etc Outside of Dubai there are some wonderful places where the locals are amazingly hospitable and kind (specifically Oman) There are areas of real, rugged beauty Dubai has never been 'cheap'....everything seems to be pricey with the exception of booze at Barracuda It's a very false place...where money appears more important than anything else Emiratis have fantastic, free healthcare The cheap labour don't have an easy life but their life is no harder than back home and the money is better Deffo not a place I would like to live in a million years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 I can't think of a place that I'd like to live in less than Dubai. Luckily I live in a country with natural beauty that was also one of those that suffered least from the economic crash and will fully recover first. I haven't seen or heard anything of Dubai yet that doesn't seem vile, but then, I haven't been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 Interesting stuff....having been a few times and my brother having lived there for 3 years, my observations have been: A lot of ex-pats are chavs with no sensibility to the local culture or respect for the local culture Dubai is an obscene place driven by greed and money, totally false and with no soul The locals (Emiratis) treat the Asian workers like scum: forcing taxis off the road, etc Outside of Dubai there are some wonderful places where the locals are amazingly hospitable and kind (specifically Oman) There are areas of real, rugged beauty Dubai has never been 'cheap'....everything seems to be pricey with the exception of booze at Barracuda It's a very false place...where money appears more important than anything else Emiratis have fantastic, free healthcare The cheap labour don't have an easy life but their life is no harder than back home and the money is better Deffo not a place I would like to live in a million years! Pretty much spot on although it is possible to argue the last point, but that depends on how you view life. Although the locals don't care who they force off the road btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 28 November, 2009 Share Posted 28 November, 2009 been to Muscat, Oman....nice place. stayed at the Grand Hyatt (sp)...amazing hotel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atticus Finch of Maycomb Posted 29 November, 2009 Share Posted 29 November, 2009 here's one for DubaiPhil:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 here's one for DubaiPhil:- []that's was uncalled for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 Has he only got one eyebrow? here's one for DubaiPhil:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robsk II Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 No, I think the other one is just shrouded in shadow. Two-tone pictures can be a spot confusing. Has he only got one eyebrow? here's one for DubaiPhil:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 A minor technical point for anyone ever thinking of passing by this way, the locals do not treat "gestures" in the same way they are viewed in the UK. Many expat motorists have, in the heat of the moment, resorted to using this gesture when cut up by idiot locals. The result is always the same, their car is rammed off the road, the police are called and an automatic one month Jail Sentence and a 1,500 pound fine follow. (Oh and their insurance is invalidated as they had performed a criminal act and they have to pay for the repairs to both cars) HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 A minor technical point for anyone ever thinking of passing by this way, the locals do not treat "gestures" in the same way they are viewed in the UK. Many expat motorists have, in the heat of the moment, resorted to using this gesture when cut up by idiot locals. The result is always the same, their car is rammed off the road, the police are called and an automatic one month Jail Sentence and a 1,500 pound fine follow. (Oh and their insurance is invalidated as they had performed a criminal act and they have to pay for the repairs to both cars) HTH You forgot the automatic deportation after the jail sentence :mad: .... it probably (hopefully) didn't even merit an infraction on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atticus Finch of Maycomb Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 A minor technical point for anyone ever thinking of passing by this way, the locals do not treat "gestures" in the same way they are viewed in the UK. Sorry, I am confused. Do you mean this gesture? here's one for DubaiPhil:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpb Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 been to Muscat, Oman....nice place. Me too, I was very impressed. The country seems to have benefitted from having a benevolent ruler who cares for his subjects - it must be worrying for the people when the time comes for him to be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deppo Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 here's one for DubaiPhil:- This fella reminds me of Bob from the Church Of The Subgenius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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