Sloppy seconds

[Football Special]

Loving the run of wins but can Tonda please sort out these sloppy second halves , that was so complacent tonight but follows a pattern where we take our foot off the gas and fall apart a bit. 

Is it just subs or tactical ? 

[St Chalet]

I thought the timing of the subs tonight were too early in the case of Leo, and too late for some of the others.

Both goals went in with players stripped ready to come on.

[Roo1976]

7 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Loving the run of wins but can Tonda please sort out these sloppy second halves , that was so complacent tonight but follows a pattern where we take our foot off the gas and fall apart a bit. 

Is it just subs or tactical ? 

That was my take on the 2nd 45,we just stopped playing and went backwards ,which was a bit worrying especially since we didnt turn up at all for most part in the second half. There needs to be a more decisive plan and firmness from the manager in playing tactics or we will come a cropper and we dont need sloppy seconds again do we? we seemed to fall back to our own goal line again................

[skintsaint]

Thought this was going to be about Bonnie Blue making a special appearance at the next home game..

[die Mannyschaft]

23 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Loving the run of wins but can Tonda please sort out these sloppy second halves , that was so complacent tonight but follows a pattern where we take our foot off the gas and fall apart a bit. 

Is it just subs or tactical ? 

Both, the subs are not at same level and intensity. Its very nervous and relegation type panic football.  We are playing with 10 or 9 and I cant see tge point in that. I don't see any game plan in 2nd half just put 5 subs on and see if our luck rus out.

WBA should have won 4-3. If we have 9 lives we only have 6 left.

[die Mannyschaft]

18 minutes ago, Roo1976 said:

That was my take on the 2nd 45,we just stopped playing and went backwards ,which was a bit worrying especially since we didnt turn up at all for most part in the second half. There needs to be a more decisive plan and firmness from the manager in playing tactics or we will come a cropper and we dont need sloppy seconds again do we? we seemed to fall back to our own goal line again................

Spot on. We don't win headers, don't compete fully, keep giving ball away, cant make correct decisions on clearing ball out in 2nd half. 

[Patches O Houlihan]

1 hour ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

I think when we need to take Scienza and another attacker off we need to be able to switch to a different formation that accepts that we will play in a different style.

Arma's deep runs to collect the ball and set up breaks were clearly communicated to WBA players at half time. Besides Fellows and Scienza being heavily marked, there seemed to always be someone muscling Arma from behind as he dropped back for the ball in the second half.

Cam Archer hasn't learned to do the Arma drop deep yet, and is generally not as good at pressing or reading back passes to put pressure on their defence. We should stick with Robinson, but there is clearly a drop off in quality when he comes on which is fair enough being in mind his age/experience/ current value.

Hopefully in a week or two with a couple of key players returning we could have a few more options

First half same as usual:

                                    Baz

           THB.              Wood              Stephens/Quashie

Fellows              Downes      Jander                Manning

                    Azaz                      Scienza

                                  Arma

From 65 mins after establishing a lead start moving towards this:

                                    Baz

              THB             Wood            Stephens/Quashie

  Mads                Downes          Jander.             Welington

                                   Charles

                                                    Archer

                       Stewart

Also: Robinson, Romeu, Matski, Bragg, New Striker in Jan

This formation has our two more defensive minded FBs, plus a different type of attack to keep their defenders thinking, and a more solid central midfield. Of course we wouldn't always finish the game like this, they'd be variations. But you'd like to hope we could keep Ross fit if he's only playing 25-30 mins per match. Jander and Charles are capable of playing clever through balls for Archer who can play off the shoulder effectively. THB would need to continue to roam forward to offer support, and has been known to play a good long ball forward for Stewart. Wellington and Mads are both much better at stopping crosses coming in. Whilst I could see a benefit in going 433 I suspect we'd end up confusing our centre backs more than shoring things up.

 

1 hour ago, Greedyfly said:

I think it's down to fatigue, complacent attitude, still a bit shot shy, lack of proper options on the bench to replace the attacking threat up front, missing Charles and missing Stewart maybe. 

 

1 hour ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

Our front four; Arma, Scienza, Azaz, Fellows.

That has to be one of the strongest attacking groups in the league right now, possibly in the last few years if they can keep the pace of the last seven games. There is a massive drop off currently behind these guys. The more they tire, and the more of them you take off, the less of a threat we present, and the more pressure gets put on the defence. 

I think it's that simple. 

If you ask Scienza and Fellows to pace themselves for a whole match I don't think you see the first half play we've been seeing.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

Once December is over maybe the subs will ease off?

Could do with a couple of decent loans to help out.

[sockeye]

I think we look considerably shitter when Leo is off the pitch. Hes fantastic but if he gets injured it will be troubling 

[Patrick Bateman]

9 hours ago, St Chalet said:

I thought the timing of the subs tonight were too early in the case of Leo, and too late for some of the others.

Both goals went in with players stripped ready to come on.

This is true, but as I said on the match thread, you could see after the break that West Brom were teaming up on both Scienza and Fellows. As soon as one of them got the ball, there were several West Brom players closing them down.

I think last night the first subs were too early, however if you're going to take Scienza off (who was being swarmed and looked like he was flagging, unsurprisingly after the shifts he has put in), then JUST take Scienza off, not 2 key players at once. I feel with hindsight that a one for one swap would've been better, bringing on Robinson on his own to get used to that front line with how Azaz, Armstrong and Fellows work together - I think Robinson would benefit from that and being the only sub in a like for like swap. So yes, taking off Fellows and Scienza together is / was a mistake.

Side note: Scienza for Robinson, yes. Scienza for Fraser of Aribo, no. In Jan we really could do with a couple of Brooks type loan signings. 

[Fabrice29]

9 hours ago, St Chalet said:

I thought the timing of the subs tonight were too early in the case of Leo, and too late for some of the others.

Both goals went in with players stripped ready to come on.

So too late then actually?

 

13 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

This is true, but as I said on the match thread, you could see after the break that West Brom were teaming up on both Scienza and Fellows. As soon as one of them got the ball, there were several West Brom players closing them down.

I think last night the first subs were too early, however if you're going to take Scienza off (who was being swarmed and looked like he was flagging, unsurprisingly after the shifts he has put in), then JUST take Scienza off, not 2 key players at once. I feel with hindsight that a one for one swap would've been better, bringing on Robinson on his own to get used to that front line with how Azaz, Armstrong and Fellows work together - I think Robinson would benefit from that and being the only sub in a like for like swap. So yes, taking off Fellows and Scienza together is / was a mistake.

Side note: Scienza for Robinson, yes. Scienza for Fraser of Aribo, no. In Jan we really could do with a couple of Brooks type loan signings. 

Fellows was injured. Scienza went missing in the 2nd half, likely for the reasons you said. I thought the subs made sense at that point , trying to stretch the play rather than compress it which had worked so well in the first half but like you said WBA had made changes to negate it.

I think bringing on Romeu and Aribo continues to be piss poor though. I think it’s just about physical presence at that point.

We could do with a RWB being fit and Charles back. 

Edited 16 hours ago by Fabrice29

[S-Clarke]

2 hours ago, sockeye said:

I think we look considerably shitter when Leo is off the pitch. Hes fantastic but if he gets injured it will be troubling 

I think Leo drifted out of the game in the 2nd half early doors to be honest, he wasn't as influential as he's been in recent games. He looked a bit leggy.

The biggest problem we have at the moment, IMO, is a lack of a proper Right Back. We've lost both Jelert and Mads at the same time which is mega unlucky, so we don't really have alternatives when Fellows needs to be subbed. That's an issue for us at the moment, I hope Mads is back soon to give us an option there.

With Charles as an option we'll have stronger midfield depth too. Downes as really good yesterday, Jander dipped quite a bit - so having a Charles rather than two out of condition players come on would have been better. 

We're not far from having solid sub options, just unlucky with injuries at the moment.

[saintstowin]

Asking less good players who don't play as much to come on and be composed and creative, and keep the ball for periods of time when the team is generally in defend mode will rarely work.

In some games it has felt like two different teams out there. The second half team has the feel of a weakened cup team. In the front positions.

We'll need to find the balance between our best XI and what happens next. I hope it will often include keeping more of the best XI on for longer. It's the number of games, the intensity of the first hour etc, but I also feel the number of substitutions is now expected to be 4/5 rather than 2/3, and this is disruptive.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I wonder if there's anything to be said about 1) the quality of fitness following Still's preseason and 2) the intensity the players are playing in the first half of games