The Burnham Years - Can the new(ish) broom sweep clean?

[egg]

Have people not worked out that Ossie is enjoying the sport. 

[LuckyNumber7]

13 hours ago, aintforever said:

Or maybe both us and the EU would be better off if it wasn’t for Brexit?

The EU is certainly worse off as we were the second biggest net contributor, hence their tears when we left. Our money was paying for roads to be built in Poland while our own country was crumbling. 

[Osvaldorama]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

So why did you vote Remain ?

I said above, I valued economic stability and I didn’t trust the inept political class to actually make a success of it. 
 

I was also quite naive at the time; I didn’t realise just how corrupt and evil the EU/globalists are. But they’ve shown their hand in recent years. 
 

I want nothing to do with those evil Marxists now. 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

I said above, I valued economic stability and I didn’t trust the inept political class to actually make a success of it. 
 

I was also quite naive at the time; I didn’t realise just how corrupt and evil the EU/globalists are. But they’ve shown their hand in recent years. 
 

I want nothing to do with those evil Marxists now. 

It's just that I know a few Leavers who regret their vote, but you are the first that I am aware of who voted Remain but would now change.

[iansums]

23 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

It's just that I know a few Leavers who regret their vote, but you are the first that I am aware of who voted Remain but would now change.

Second, I've said the same.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

30 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

It's just that I know a few Leavers who regret their vote, but you are the first that I am aware of who voted Remain but would now change.

As we were getting into the negotiations, well after the vote, and there was a level of vitriol from the EU about how they would treat us, I knew a few people who crossed over from remain to leavers.

There were still quite a few that were more bothered about the Maastricht Treaty, and thought after that was a bad idea. Some voted remain grudgingly, but weren't massively upset about it going the other way.

[Farmer Saint]

11 minutes ago, iansums said:

Second, I've said the same.

Genuinely perplexed by this - why? We're significantly poorer, with higher costs, higher unemployment and much higher illegal migration. What trumps those cons?

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

Genuinely perplexed by this - why? We're significantly poorer, with higher costs, higher unemployment and much higher illegal migration. What trumps those cons?

Key thing is sovereignty. 

EU has shown they’re a toxic, bloated, corrupt, expensive, disgusting organisation. 

I’m now more than happy to accept short term economic pain for longer term gain of re-establishing our nation without foreign influence. 
Some things are more important than money. Our nation, culture and identity is more than an homogenous economic zone. (And so are all the other European nations.) Every single European nation deserves better governance and independence from Brussels bureaucracy. 

I know quite a lot of people that feel the same way. 

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Key thing is sovereignty. 

EU has shown they’re a toxic, bloated, corrupt, expensive, disgusting organisation. 

I’m now more than happy to accept short term economic pain for longer term gain of re-establishing our nation without foreign influence. 
Some things are more important than money. Our nation, culture and identity is more than an homogenous economic zone. (And so are all the other European nations.) Every single European nation deserves better governance and independence from Brussels bureaucracy. 

I know quite a lot of people that feel the same way. 

How has sovereignty (or autonomy) helped us as a country? 

The issue is that we have the pain, but are we more or less likely to grow alone or as part of a collective? Given how our economy has shrunk (I assume you accept the Stanford paper) post vote/Brexit, and is barely treading water (and we're actually a bit fucked - on that you and I agree), how realistic is it that we'll feel a gain over the wider EU states? I just don't see it. 

[Farmer Saint]

14 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Key thing is sovereignty. 

EU has shown they’re a toxic, bloated, corrupt, expensive, disgusting organisation. 

I’m now more than happy to accept short term economic pain for longer term gain of re-establishing our nation without foreign influence. 
Some things are more important than money. Our nation, culture and identity is more than an homogenous economic zone. (And so are all the other European nations.) Every single European nation deserves better governance and independence from Brussels bureaucracy. 

I know quite a lot of people that feel the same way. 

I disagree vehemently with this - sovereignty has become toxic because it's synonymous with racial intolerance.

I guarantee people wouldn't care anywhere near as much if we had more money in our pockets.

If you don't care about money, surely getting rid of foreign billionaires diluting our sovereignty is a good thing?

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I disagree vehemently with this - sovereignty has become toxic because it's synonymous with racial intolerance.

I guarantee people wouldn't care anywhere near as much if we had more money in our pockets.

If you don't care about money, surely getting rid of foreign billionaires diluting our sovereignty is a good thing?

You stole my next point!! 

Sovereignty has become conflated with something very unpleasant. 

[Osvaldorama]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

You stole my next point!! 

Sovereignty has become conflated with something very unpleasant. 

Only to those that can’t think for themselves and regurgitate whatever the bbc tells them 

[Osvaldorama]

lol. Right on cue I just saw this:

 

 

I believe that most political institutions across Europe no longer work for the people, and only serve corrupt elites and bureaucrats at the top. 
(In much the same way that Britain has been sold out)

Sovereignty to me means putting as much control in the hands of our own elected officials as possible. 

To be clear, I don’t necessarily trust them to get things right, but I’d stilll rather have our own politicians in complete control with as little foreign interference as possible.
 

The more decentralised the power structures, the better for the average citizen, in my opinion. 

[badgerx16]

Given that all the major issues facing the UK are extra-territorial ; illegal immigration, Trump, Russian expansionism, climate change, global financial integration, AI, etc, how does lifting the drawbridge, declaring "Sovereignty"  and aggravating our nearest neighbours suit us better than building partnerships and being "inside the tent, pissing out" ?

[Osvaldorama]

25 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Given that all the major issues facing the UK are extra-territorial ; illegal immigration, Trump, Russian expansionism, climate change, global financial integration, AI, etc, how does lifting the drawbridge, declaring "Sovereignty"  and aggravating our nearest neighbours suit us better than building partnerships and being "inside the tent, pissing out" ?

Having better control of our justice & political system doesn’t mean we are pulling up the drawbridge. 
It leads to a stronger, better Britain which is more useful as an ally to those we care about. 

Anyway, Brexit is really boring, can we go back to arguing about how terrible Labour are please 🙏 

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Having better control of our justice & political system doesn’t mean we are pulling up the drawbridge. 
It leads to a stronger, better Britain which is more useful as an ally to those we care about. 

Anyway, Brexit is really boring, can we go back to arguing about how terrible Labour are please 🙏 

 

[Gloucester Saint]

Positive development https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cme8r9267dpko

Just look at those rafts and think that the smugglers cram 70 or more asylum seekers into those each. Staggering that there aren’t more sinkings and fatalities. 

25 boats intercepted @70 each = 1750 ASs we don’t have to process/kick out.

[Whitey Grandad]

9 hours ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

The EU is certainly worse off as we were the second biggest net contributor, hence their tears when we left. Our money was paying for roads to be built in Poland while our own country was crumbling. 

Plenty of EU money was spent on our roads.

[Gloucester Saint]

Good https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cmp3gnd1e4gyo

[Farmer Saint]

22 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Good https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cmp3gnd1e4gyo

"So what you have to do is put your cock, in his arse".

[LuckyNumber7]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Plenty of EU money was spent on our roads.

As we were big net contributors, "EU money" effectively means some of our own money coming back.

It's like giving them £100, they then give you £30 back and tell you what a great deal you got.

[whelk]

25 minutes ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

As we were big net contributors, "EU money" effectively means some of our own money coming back.

It's like giving them £100, they then give you £30 back and tell you what a great deal you got.

Bet you believed that big bus?

[Wade Garrett]

22 hours ago, egg said:

How has sovereignty (or autonomy) helped us as a country? 

The issue is that we have the pain, but are we more or less likely to grow alone or as part of a collective? Given how our economy has shrunk (I assume you accept the Stanford paper) post vote/Brexit, and is barely treading water (and we're actually a bit fucked - on that you and I agree), how realistic is it that we'll feel a gain over the wider EU states? I just don't see it. 

Imagine this hypothetical situation. 

We go back into the EU.

France, Germany, Spain, Italy get right-wing governments.  In the case of France and Germany, very right-wing, and this is a real possibility.

Their influence on the EU, regulations, statutes is considerable and we find ourselves taking laws heavily influenced by them.

This is where our sovereignty means everything.  We become rule makers, not rule takers.  In the above, likely, scenario, the same people with loud voices on rejoining the EU will become loud voices on leaving.

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

Imagine this hypothetical situation. 

We go back into the EU.

France, Germany, Spain, Italy get right-wing governments.  In the case of France and Germany, very right-wing, and this is a real possibility.

Their influence on the EU, regulations, statutes is considerable and we find ourselves taking laws heavily influenced by them.

This is where our sovereignty means everything.  We become rule makers, not rule takers.  In the above, likely, scenario, the same people with loud voices on rejoining the EU will become loud voices on leaving.

What kind of laws and regulations are you talking about?

[Wade Garrett]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

What kind of laws and regulations are you talking about?

Leave it out.

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, Wade Garrett said:

Leave it out.

Eh? You proposed a hypothetical situation, I'm just asking what type of right wing laws and regulations you're talking about?

[Wade Garrett]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

Eh? You proposed a hypothetical situation, I'm just asking what type of right wing laws and regulations you're talking about?

Read it again.  We would continue to have laws and regulations passed down to us by Brussels, who will be dominated by very right-wing governments.  It's a hypothetical situation.  The Europe some want to join today may not be the Europe they want to be part of in the not too distant future.  It's not a difficult concept.  If you don't like the UK government you can vote them out.  Unlike the EU.  That's the point.

[badgerx16]

Kemi says that under her welfare reforms, "anybody who can work will work". Given that there are at least 2.5 job seekers for each current vacancy, where will they be working ?

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, Wade Garrett said:

Read it again.  We would continue to have laws and regulations passed down to us by Brussels, who will be dominated by very right-wing governments.  It's a hypothetical situation.  The Europe some want to join today may not be the Europe they want to be part of in the not too distant future.  It's not a difficult concept.  If you don't like the UK government you can vote them out.  Unlike the EU.  That's the point.

But it depends on the type of laws as to whether we have to accept them, whether you need unanimous acceptance etc, so that's the point.

It's fine if you can't come up with even one example of what you mean.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Kemi says that under her welfare reforms, "anybody who can work will work". Given that there are at least 2.5 job seekers for each current vacancy, where will they be working ?

For the billionaires that will come flooding back from their 0% tax havens.

[badgerx16]

57 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Read it again.  We would continue to have laws and regulations passed down to us by Brussels, who will be dominated by very right-wing governments.  It's a hypothetical situation.  The Europe some want to join today may not be the Europe they want to be part of in the not too distant future.  It's not a difficult concept.  If you don't like the UK government you can vote them out.  Unlike the EU.  That's the point.

So why worry about it ? 

There are many hypothetical scenarios that can be thought up around membership of the EU, but should we be making long term policy decisions around being afraid of something that quite possibly will never come to pass ?

[The Kraken]

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So why worry about it ? 

There are many hypothetical scenarios that can be thought up around membership of the EU, but should we be making long term policy decisions around being afraid of something that quite possibly will never come to pass ?

It was exactly the same around the time of the Brexit vote. James O’Brien in particular had reams of video of callers in to his show lamenting us being subservient to EU laws, then when asked which laws in particular they were most affected by, they couldn’t name a single one.

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

But it depends on the type of laws as to whether we have to accept them, whether you need unanimous acceptance etc, so that's the point.

It's fine if you can't come up with even one example of what you mean.

No worries.  Your belittling arguments are a little tedious though.  If you can't see the point I'm making then that's your problem.

[Wade Garrett]

7 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

So why worry about it ? 

There are many hypothetical scenarios that can be thought up around membership of the EU, but should we be making long term policy decisions around being afraid of something that quite possibly will never come to pass ?

I'm not worried about it at all.  The point I'm making is that the governance of the EU is fluid.  What some might accept now they might not accept in the future if the EU lurks to the right, as is probable.  Personally, I would rather be a sovereign nation that can vote down poor governments, than give that away and have very little voting influence over the EU.

Just my point of view, obvious that others don't agree.

Edited 2 hours ago by Wade Garrett

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Kemi says that under her welfare reforms, "anybody who can work will work". Given that there are at least 2.5 job seekers for each current vacancy, where will they be working ?

Not much chance of more vacancies with this shower in government.  They think they can tax the nation into prosperity.

[badgerx16]

54 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

I'm not worried about it at all.  The point I'm making is that the governance of the EU is fluid.  What some might accept now they might not accept in the future if the EU lurks to the right, as is probable.  Personally, I would rather be a sovereign nation that can vote down poor governments, then give that away and have very little voting influence over the EU.

Just my point of view, obvious that others don't agree.

I just think that, given the nature of the problems we have to deal with, we would be better clubbing together with other nations rather than going it alone and risking becoming increasingly insignificant on the World stage.

Edited 8 hours ago by badgerx16

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

No worries.  Your belittling arguments are a little tedious though.  If you can't see the point I'm making then that's your problem.

Where have I belittled you? All I am asking for is a little bit of clarification and detail. It's very important when talking about how laws and regulations are created and formed into legislation in the EU.

[Wade Garrett]

5 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Where have I belittled you? All I am asking for is a little bit of clarification and detail. It's very important when talking about how laws and regulations are created and formed into legislation in the EU.

Whatever my friend.