St Marco Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Interestingly i was looking on this website i found http://www.zerozerofootball.com/edicao.php It shows the league table after each match (i know stat fans will be happy about that!). Looking at the table of when Jan left which was after the Doncaster game (match day 28 - 17/1/09), the table looked like this 19th - Forest - 30 points 20th - Derby - 29 points 21st - Norwich - 29 points -------------------------------- 22nd - Watford - 27 points 23rd - Saints - 26 points 24th - Charlton - 19 points Compared to the table today 19th - Barnsley - 44 points 20th - Norwich - 43 points 21st - Plymouth - 43 points --------------------------- 22nd - Forest - 41 points 23rd - Saints - 40 points 24th - Charlton - 29 points This is of course the difference after 11 games but it shows you how tough it is to put those games together to get out of the drop zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 And Jan didnt have the senior pros...Saga, Euell Skacel etc Interesting to see on that website that we have the worst disciplinary record in the league in terms of the most yellow cards so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 And Jan didnt have the senior pros...Saga, Euell Skacel etc Interesting to see on that website that we have the worst disciplinary record in the league in terms of the most yellow cards so far... or chose not to use them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 or chose not to use them ? Or was under instructions to field youngsters from those above him . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwarwick Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Interestingly i was looking on this website i found http://www.zerozerofootball.com/edicao.php It shows the league table after each match (i know stat fans will be happy about that!). Looking at the table of when Jan left which was after the Doncaster game (match day 28 - 17/1/09), the table looked like this 19th - Forest - 30 points 20th - Derby - 29 points 21st - Norwich - 29 points -------------------------------- 22nd - Watford - 27 points 23rd - Saints - 26 points 24th - Charlton - 19 points Compared to the table today 19th - Barnsley - 44 points 20th - Norwich - 43 points 21st - Plymouth - 43 points --------------------------- 22nd - Forest - 41 points 23rd - Saints - 40 points 24th - Charlton - 29 points This is of course the difference after 11 games but it shows you how tough it is to put those games together to get out of the drop zone. However if we win our game in hand 2-0 (a game in hand we didn't have after week twenty eight) we will move out of the bottom three. Sorry to be so positive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint_bert Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Also picking up 14 points from 11 games isnt bad for a team in the bottom 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 22 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 22 March, 2009 However if we win our game in hand 2-0 (a game in hand we didn't have after week twenty eight) we will move out of the bottom three. Sorry to be so positive Its not about being positive or negative just a matter of perspective. Some think we are safe because we have a game in hand and some think it is going to be very difficult to get out of the relegation zone because we are not winning games. We have in last 11 games 14 points, that is a nice haul, but it hasen't been enough to change anything. The run in is going to be very very difficult. We have a chance and we must now take it. The ironic thing is in Jans first 11 comepative games he had won 4 games, drew 2 and lost 5. If they were points games he would have the same points as Wotte. Just more perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 charlton not done too good in that time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Interestingly i was looking on this website i found http://www.zerozerofootball.com/edicao.php It shows the league table after each match (i know stat fans will be happy about that!). Looking at the table of when Jan left which was after the Doncaster game (match day 28 - 17/1/09), the table looked like this 19th - Forest - 30 points 20th - Derby - 29 points 21st - Norwich - 29 points -------------------------------- 22nd - Watford - 27 points 23rd - Saints - 26 points 24th - Charlton - 19 points Compared to the table today 19th - Barnsley - 44 points 20th - Norwich - 43 points 21st - Plymouth - 43 points --------------------------- 22nd - Forest - 41 points 23rd - Saints - 40 points 24th - Charlton - 29 points This is of course the difference after 11 games but it shows you how tough it is to put those games together to get out of the drop zone. We're in a worse position regardless of the game in hand - simply, we have less games to play to bail us out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Also picking up 14 points from 11 games isnt bad for a team in the bottom 3 How many have Watford 'picked up'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 How many have Watford 'picked up'? at least 3pts from Rasiak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Perhaps it shows that our new manager is no better than JP. Or perhaps it shows that our players are not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L1Minus10 Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Stats tell you **** all in this case. If Jan had still been here we'd already be down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 22 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Stats tell you **** all in this case. If Jan had still been here we'd already be down. No they show you that while we have done well, other teams have done just as well or even better. We will need to do better to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Sideburns Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 Stats are quoted only by clubs when they are favourable... You won't be seeing any stats on the OS anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 22 March, 2009 Share Posted 22 March, 2009 If we are going to get out of this, it is going to take all Saints fans to get behind the team. Call a truce on the bickering and lets go for it. Get behind Mark Wotte and the boys let' 'ave it. Great escape revisited. Come On You Reds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfredKo Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Everyone sees what the difference is, we have won more home games under Wotte and lost just one home game since JP left. Wotte is a much better in setting up formation than JP. Just look at the 442 diamond with Mcgoldrick playing behind Euell and Saganowski, I am not sure can anyone in this forum think of this formation which best suited our players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Performance under Jan P up to the Doncaster game was Played 28, Won 6, drawn 8, lost 14 (GF-14; GA-42) 26 points. Points average per game - 0.92 After the Blackpool match, the record since Mark Wotte took over at the Norwich game on 27 Jan, is Played 11, Won 3, Drawn 5, Lost 3 (GF-14; GA-12) 14 points. Points average per game - 1.27 Conclusion:- Performance has improved. Wotte's performance, if maintained for a whole season would give 58 points and be about 14th in the table. However, lower table teams tend to have an upward curve of results in the last quarter of the season thereforec Saints still have to do better. If the team continue at 1.27 points a game, they will finish with 49 points and be relegated. Ergo - we are still in the same position Jan left us in, but there has been an improvement and if the end of season upward curve of results is achieved, it is possible to avoid the drop. You cannot be precisie on the number of popints needed as the results of other teams influence that, but 14 more points are probably needed. But there are only 7 games to get them from, so 4 wins, 2 draws and only 1 defeat needed. Even if Wotte fails in that, he will still have improved performance very substantially over Jan P's record which ought to earn him the right to go for promotion next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Performance under Jan P up to the Doncaster game was Played 28, Won 6, drawn 8, lost 14 (GF-14; GA-42) 26 points. Points average per game - 0.92 After the Blackpool match, the record since Mark Wotte took over at the Norwich game on 27 Jan, is Played 11, Won 3, Drawn 5, Lost 3 (GF-14; GA-12) 14 points. Points average per game - 1.27 Conclusion:- Performance has improved. Wotte's performance, if maintained for a whole season would give 58 points and be about 14th in the table. However, lower table teams tend to have an upward curve of results in the last quarter of the season thereforec Saints still have to do better. If the team continue at 1.27 points a game, they will finish with 49 points and be relegated. Ergo - we are still in the same position Jan left us in, but there has been an improvement and if the end of season upward curve of results is achieved, it is possible to avoid the drop. You cannot be precisie on the number of popints needed as the results of other teams influence that, but 14 more points are probably needed. But there are only 7 games to get them from, so 4 wins, 2 draws and only 1 defeat needed. Even if Wotte fails in that, he will still have improved performance very substantially over Jan P's record which ought to earn him the right to go for promotion next year. Two things.... 1. If Wotte's average points record continues into next season, 14th place is no where near challenging for promotion!! 2. So we have to almost double our current points per match average just to survive in the league - with no loan signings likely, and doubtless some more injuries / suspensions to come, which will further weaken a team that has proved already it isn't up to the task!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Two things.... 1. If Wotte's average points record continues into next season, 14th place is no where near challenging for promotion!! 2. So we have to almost double our current points per match average just to survive in the league - with no loan signings likely, and doubtless some more injuries / suspensions to come, which will further weaken a team that has proved already it isn't up to the task!!! Weston has misunderstood. I am talking about a promotion bid back to the CCC from Div 1. ! My conclusion is that, although it is not yet a certainty, relegation is more likely than not, despite Wotte's improvement over JP. If relegated, however, I would say Wotte has done enough to be kept on to lead a promotion bid from Div 1 next season. However, it would be with a different squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Weston has misunderstood. I am talking about a promotion bid back to the CCC from Div 1. ! My conclusion is that, although it is not yet a certainty, relegation is more likely than not, despite Wotte's improvement over JP. If relegated, however, I would say Wotte has done enough to be kept on to lead a promotion bid from Div 1 next season. However, it would be with a different squad. Fortunately, I believe relegation and the ensuing administration - if we're not already in it by then - would lead to the demise of Lowe and this continuing Dutch experiment. Sadly though, due to his pigheadedness to accept the reality of the situation, we will leave it too late to go into administration and will receive -10 points to start next season, so whoever our manager is, won't stand a chance of pushing for promotion until the season after.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Fortunately, I believe relegation and the ensuing administration - if we're not already in it by then - would lead to the demise of Lowe and this continuing Dutch experiment. Sadly though, due to his pigheadedness to accept the reality of the situation, we will leave it too late to go into administration and will receive -10 points to start next season, so whoever our manager is, won't stand a chance of pushing for promotion until the season after.... Seems odd to write a manager off because of his nationality in these days of non-English managers throughout the higher levels of football. Chelsea's "Dutch Experiment" seems to be going OK! As for the 'reality' of the situation, the current board have done no worse than last year's board so far, and although none of us outside of the club actually know the financial situation, what we have seen in terms of cost cutting suggests better financial management then previously. Certainly money is still a major issue, as indicated in Wotte's comments about no late season loans, but the point about team performance is that although performance has improved so has the performance of our competitors, as other teams also get their end of season upward curve. We are still in much the postion JP left us in, but had he stayed we could be already down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Seems odd to write a manager off because of his nationality in these days of non-English managers throughout the higher levels of football. Chelsea's "Dutch Experiment" seems to be going OK! As for the 'reality' of the situation, the current board have done no worse than last year's board so far, and although none of us outside of the club actually know the financial situation, what we have seen in terms of cost cutting suggests better financial management then previously. Certainly money is still a major issue, as indicated in Wotte's comments about no late season loans, but the point about team performance is that although performance has improved so has the performance of our competitors, as other teams also get their end of season upward curve. We are still in much the postion JP left us in, but had he stayed we could be already down. To be fair, I didn't invent the term 'Dutch Revolution', so please cut out the racist connotations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Prof -I think you're forgetting conveniently that Wotte was the architect of JPs failure. To say Wotte is an improvement over JP, when he's given himself a different Club policy to follow that doesnt involve playing all kids, is not giving Wotte enough credit for the failure he started last August with Lowe. Wotte is not new - he has simply sacked a coach, changed the goal posts and inserted himself as manager. Wotte has to take as much blame - if not more - than JP for the first 2/3rd of the season. Can't do this straight forward selective JP v Wotte as coach idea - it is simply illogical to me and fails to look at the whole contribution from Wotte this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 (edited) we might still be in the same position in the league but our points per game has improved. under JP we were averaging 0.9 points per game under Wotte we are averaging just under 1.2,if this trend continues we will gain another 8 points which should be enough to survive. our problem is that our results are pretty much being matched by the other relegation threatened teams around us.....we are all fighting for our lives,we just need a bit of luck to leapfrog a couple of them. Edited 23 March, 2009 by lordswoodsaints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 It's funny how at the start of the season Wotte and Poortvleit formed part of a seamless revolutionary coaching setup, but now it's just written off as all Poortvleit's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 It's funny how at the start of the season Wotte and Poortvleit formed part of a seamless revolutionary coaching setup, but now it's just written off as all Poortvleit's fault. who is writing it off...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 we might still be in thesame position in the league but our points per game has improved. under JP we were averaging 0.9 points per game under Wotte we are averaging just under 1.2,if this trend continues we will gain another 8 points which should be enough to survive. our problem is that our results are pretty much being matched by the other relegated threatened teams around us.....we are all fighting for our lives,we just need a bit of luck to leapfrog a couple of them. Do you think so? I reckon we need at least 10 points, possibly 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Do you think so? I reckon we need at least 10 points, possibly 11. people say they cant see us winning another game let alone 3 or so... despite being 7th in the form table...yet they can see forest and plymouth winning games despite them being bottom and 3rd bottom of the current form table... strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Prof -I think you're forgetting conveniently that Wotte was the architect of JPs failure.To say Wotte is an improvement over JP, when he's given himself a different Club policy to follow that doesnt involve playing all kids, is not giving Wotte enough credit for the failure he started last August with Lowe. Wotte is not new - he has simply sacked a coach, changed the goal posts and inserted himself as manager. Wotte has to take as much blame - if not more - than JP for the first 2/3rd of the season. Can't do this straight forward selective JP v Wotte as coach idea - it is simply illogical to me and fails to look at the whole contribution from Wotte this season. what are you basing your conspiracy theory on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 It's funny how at the start of the season Wotte and Poortvleit formed part of a seamless revolutionary coaching setup, but now it's just written off as all Poortvleit's fault. most read seemless as meaning allowing players to move up to the first team more easily -not no-one knew who was picking team, team talks etc. Sure he was involved but lets not start pretending he was running first team before he took over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 23 March, 2009 Author Share Posted 23 March, 2009 people say they cant see us winning another game let alone 3 or so... despite being 7th in the form table...yet they can see forest and plymouth winning games despite them being bottom and 3rd bottom of the current form table... strange Thing is though mate if you look at that form guide we have 9 points from the last 6. Not bad. But Norwich have 10 from the last 6 and Plymouth have 7 points from the last 6. Meaning if everything stays as it is for the next 6 games we would still be below both Norwich and Plymouth. So if that happens means the table would stay the way it is with Forest and Saints swapping places due to us having a point more. So if the last 6 stays the same as the next 6 we will still be in the drop zone. BUT We would have that extra game meaning if we won we would survive due to Plymouth being a point ahead of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 what are you basing your conspiracy theory on? Maybe the OS announcements when the 'Dutch Duo' were introduced :smt102 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 Maybe the OS announcements when the 'Dutch Duo' were introduced :smt102 We went through all this a couple of weeks back on here. NickG's view is that Wotte was only involved in the academy;) despite Wotte also being billed as Assistant First Team Coach and the OS continually telling us about his involvement as a part of the Dutch Duo / Revolutionary Coaching Set Up etc etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 not quite accurate -of either my view, nor of the set up- but as you say we have been here before! only raised it again as its gone from involved to the architect -lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 23 March, 2009 Share Posted 23 March, 2009 not quite accurate -of either my view, nor of the set up- but as you say we have been here before! only raised it again as its gone from involved to the architect -lol! Are they not similar in footballing terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Its a shame! Another perfectly valid discussion is hi-jacked by the anti-Lowe faction who then introduce the usual comments, unsupported by evidence, on which their predudices are based and which have become just a little bit boring. This thread is about the fact that there has been an improvement in team performance since Wotte became head coach but that we are still in much the same position in the table as when JP left in January. People have rightly pointed out that although we are getting more points, there are less games left to climb the two places needed and other teams in the bottom six or seven are also posting improved performances. My own view is that the team still need to do better to survive. At current performance under Mark Wotte we would get another 8 or 9 points, which I think would not be enough to stay up, although others disagree. My estimate for survival is that we need another 14 points. I admit that is a pessimistic position to take and I hope I am wrong as my position makes relegation the more likely outcome. My other point about Mark Wotte though, is that if we do go down, I think he has shown that he deserves to stay in the job to try to get us back next year. The anti-Lowe faction, who include in their complaints that Lowe has had too many managers over the years should, logically, agree but then logic struggles to hold its place in some of the discussions here. (Please take that remark as intended to be light-hearted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Its a shame! Another perfectly valid discussion is hi-jacked by the anti-Lowe faction who then introduce the usual comments, unsupported by evidence, on which their predudices are based and which have become just a little bit boring. This thread is about the fact that there has been an improvement in team performance since Wotte became head coach but that we are still in much the same position in the table as when JP left in January. People have rightly pointed out that although we are getting more points, there are less games left to climb the two places needed and other teams in the bottom six or seven are also posting improved performances. My own view is that the team still need to do better to survive. At current performance under Mark Wotte we would get another 8 or 9 points, which I think would not be enough to stay up, although others disagree. My estimate for survival is that we need another 14 points. I admit that is a pessimistic position to take and I hope I am wrong as my position makes relegation the more likely outcome. My other point about Mark Wotte though, is that if we do go down, I think he has shown that he deserves to stay in the job to try to get us back next year. The anti-Lowe faction, who include in their complaints that Lowe has had too many managers over the years should, logically, agree but then logic struggles to hold its place in some of the discussions here. (Please take that remark as intended to be light-hearted). I agree that Wotte might as well stay on next season if we go down. After all, we will be going into administration so it doesnt matter if Sir Alex Ferguson were managing us.... If we stay up, I am not so certain Wotte should remain. After all, Lowe decided Peason wasnt value for money despite rescuing us.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 The anti-Lowe faction, who include in their complaints that Lowe has had too many managers over the years should, logically, agree but then logic struggles to hold its place in some of the discussions here. (Please take that remark as intended to be light-hearted). And you could have used exactly the same line of argument in November 2004 or January 2009!!!!! Sometimes the mistake is not in getting rid of an underperforming/dire/out of his depth manager, it's the appointment in the first place. And as for your initial assertion, well sadly the role of Lowe plays big part in the performance of the two managers, with each of them having to work within a strategy overseen by Lowe. For example, many on here argue that Wotte's task has been made somewhat easier due to a lifting of the restrictions within which he can operate (e.g. much greater freedom to use older players). It is a rather naive view to believe that the manager performs in isolation to the overall strategy of the CEO and Board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 And you could have used exactly the same line of argument in November 2004 or January 2009!!!!! Sometimes the mistake is not in getting rid of an underperforming/dire/out of his depth manager, it's the appointment in the first place. And as for your initial assertion, well sadly the role of Lowe plays big part in the performance of the two managers, with each of them having to work within a strategy overseen by Lowe. For example, many on here argue that Wotte's task has been made somewhat easier due to a lifting of the restrictions within which he can operate (e.g. much greater freedom to use older players). It is a rather naive view to believe that the manager performs in isolation to the overall strategy of the CEO and Board. You say nothing wrong there, but do neglect to mention what those restrictions are, and why they exist in the first place, I dont know and nor do you, and yes there is the possibilty that these have been greater than necessary, equally, they may well have been required to stabalise us financially... we dont know. IMHO, its important information like that which you need to establsih an INFORMED opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Smith Posted 24 March, 2009 Share Posted 24 March, 2009 Its a shame! Another perfectly valid discussion is hi-jacked by the anti-Lowe faction who then introduce the usual comments, unsupported by evidence, on which their predudices are based and which have become just a little bit boring. I think you'll find that this thread was doing just fine until your 'nationality' post. I have been viewing this website from afar of late, the posts on why people don;t post anymore were very interesting reading. And so, in all fairness and balance, I choose to write my first post in weeks to point out that it was YOU that ruined this discussion, it was YOU that hi-jacked this thread, it was YOU that used comments unsupported by evidence, it was YOU that has become a little boring. Hope that's clear prof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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