sandwichsaint

Down with a whimper, we're going down with a whimper, down with a whimper. We're goin' down with a whimper ........ ssssshhhhhhhhhh! This should have been sung (quietly) at the Charlton and Sheff Weds games. I hope people are going to give the players some grief on Saturday; it's six days on I'm still not over the pitiful surrender I saw at Hillsborough last week. Fecking players Fecking manager Fecking Burley Fecking Lowe Feck everybody! Another relegation struggle next season as well then .....

Personally I never want to hear from, see, or read anything about RL/MW ever again! I have not followed or read any of RL's media debriefings; I didn't believe in him when he was here and I'm certainly not now going to throw good time after bad times trolling him around the media .... if we haven't heard anything from RL that is A GOOD THING and long may it continue. In the interests of fairness/balance I'm not overly convinced that LC is the answer either. My abiding wish is that we are taken over by someone I've never heard of, who appoints a competent team of people I've never heard of, and that they then rinse the place clean from top to bottom and make a complete fresh start on and off the pitch.

Other results aren't going our way!!! Since beating Ipswich we have won just one game in the last 9, and have failed to record a win in any of the following 'winnable' 6 games: we couldn't beat Derby, QPR or Charlton (FFS!) at home, and we failed to win at Blackpool, Watford, or Wednesday. For how long do you rely on 'other teams' results? We have won 4 home games all season! That's relegation form in anybody's book. As for Wotte not deserving vilification? He trains the team, he picks the team, he selects the tactics; his results and the performances of 'his' team speak for themselves. He hasn't got the first clue about our club, this League or English football. Diamond formation with these players, in this league? LMFAO! If we had a chairman I would have expected him to have been out the door at 10.00 this morning following the debacle of Saturday. It really doesn't matter who picks the team and runs the bench for these last 2 games; nobody could do worse than Wotte did on Saturday.

Can we knock one thing straight on the head here, and I've seen it loads of places on here in the last 24 hours, 'Sheff Weds weren't even any good'. Ridiculous comment and one of the reasons we lose so many games! The same comment made over and over again, I can only assume by people that don't watch (m)any games, or only 'watch' Saints when they do go to a game? Get real people! The League table doesn't lie! SW are comfortably mid-table after a difficult season last year and a wobbly first half of this season. They have an excellent manager who they have stuck by for a couple of seasons, and a very workable mix of 'journeymen', young pro's, and the odd foreign import. They play a no-nonesense, high-tempo 'British' game and are quite good at it, relying heavily on fitness/work rate/physical strength and pace (if you still don't get it, that's not Saints I'm talking about there). When they have that platform they then play their 'football' and their attacks have pace and precision. They have a decent spine of a solid GK, 2 decent CBs, and hard-tackling midfielders. Yesterday 24k fans turned out for a meaningless end-of-season match and supported their team for 90 minutes and were rewarded with the most one-sided 2-0 win they will ever see. We are 3 or 4 years away even from this scenario and will have to go down, and hopefully up again, to even get to that level. In the meantime we need a buyer, funds, and fans, before we even consider finding our own next manager/saviour. Time for some to get real; we are cr8p as cr8p can be. We fielded six players yesterday with Prem experience, Weds had 3 or 4. 'These players should be higher in the League ...', which players? Which league? Yesterday we/they made not-very-good-Sheffield-Wednesday look like fecking Brazil, just like two weeks ago when we made Charlton look like Chelsea. Why didn't we win yesterday? How long have you got? Losing mentality from top to bottom; team doesn't 'expect' to win games, we are effectively 'beaten before we've started'. Players are mentally drained; from losing, from 'politics', from worrying about their jobs/futures. Players' fitness levels are apalling, frankly unbelievable in this day and age. Surman,Skacel,Wotton,McG all blowing out their ar5es after 15 minutes. Warm-up and prep is school-boy standard (if that's not insulting to school boys' and their coaches). No progression, no intensity, no team-building routines. It's cursory, superficial, unproffessional. I was astonished by what I saw at Wolves pre-match, and yesterday's was equally poor. Tactics and team selection are poor and inflexible. The narrow diamond has been shi7 for weeks but we don't change it. Mrs Sandwich came to her first game of the season on Sat and she picked it up in the first five minutes, we are playing with a lack of natural width and any shape for the centre players to pass to, consequently we continually give the ball away (or hoof it straight and long which amounts to the same thing really). Manager/coaches don't react to the game situation. Saints have an extremely limited Plan A and no Plan B. Too many players have given up, they can get a new club next season, we can't! We concede goals for fun, two howlers yesterday, and without Perry they might easily have had five. We play very negatively, constantly passing square and backwards. No pace, creativity, or one-on-one ability means we create very few chances in open play (we should be playing Llallana in the hole, yesterday that would have drawn their clumping CBs fd away from the top of their D, rather than kicking it onto their heads for 90 minutes). We are poor at converting the chances we do get (no natural goal scorer if Saga doesn't score). Set pieces/corners are shocking. That's some of the reasons we didn't win yesterday.... and unless we make some real changes we will carry on reading 'Millwall weren't even that good...' type comments, all the way into Division 4. I visited the Stadium of Light on Saturday morning (after cycling the C-2-C route from Whitehaven to Sunderland on Wed-Fri last week) and was very moved by the 'fans' statue if any of you have seen it. Words which resonated for me in our current plight: 'All generations come together at the Stadium of Light. A love of "The Lads" has bonded together supporters for more than 125 years and will for many more years in the future. At Sunderland it is this statue to the fans that has pride of place. Supporters who have passed away have their support carried on by today's fans, just as the supporters of today will have their support continued through families and friends. We share this vision and bond as one because Sunderland AFC is For Us All' Maybe something for our 'players' to reflect on even though it's probably too late now, and for us as fans to hope we will one day rise again.

TBF, if some people on here thought 'he was rubbish and not good enough for us' he is some pretty illustrious company. Not good enough for Saints: Prutton Kevin Davies Delap Oakley Higinbotham Telfer Dean Richards Jermaine Wright Brett Ormerod Blackstock Fuller (!) Not sure if that lot would have served up the complete debacle I witnessed yesterday and be on a one-way ticket to Div 3?

Just when you thought you had seen everything, Wotte a shocker! KD 4, HIS KICKING IS COMPLETELY SHOT!!! LJ 5, TAKE A BOW SON SIZE 3, HOWLER FOR THE FIRST GOAL PERRY 5, TWO GOAL-SAVING INTERCEPTIONS IN THE FIRST-HALF RUDI 2, GAVE UP WEEKS AGO WOTTON 5, SHI7E BUT AT LEAST HE TRIES LLALANA 2, SHOULD BE SUEING SFC FOR LOSS OF HIS CAREER DMG 4, DECENT FIRST HALF, WENT MISSING 2ND HALF SURMAN 2, INVISIBLE MAN FIRST HALF, QUITE GOOD (AGAIN) AT LB BWP 4.5, LOOKED INTERESTED BUT FECKALL SERVICE JE 2, I'M A FAN BUT HE HAD ONE TODAY SAGA 4, SHOULD HAVE COME ON AT HT SMITH '0' NIL POINTS, UNMITIGATED SHY7E (someone come back and defend his 'performance' today?) MORGAN 0. WHAT WAS THE POINT? DID HE TOUCH THE BALL! Absolute gash from first minute to last.... I'm embarressed and hurting tonight.... is anybody on here defending Wotte after that!?

Plannning to go. Anbody know if you can pay on the gate? Thnx.

That'll be Charlton all over again then? Have we ever kept a clean sheet with Wotton at holding mid? What's not to get that the 'diamond' doesn't work with these players? Lallana will be shy7e in a free role on the RM and will leave LJ horribly exposed. Palace will score 2, Saints will score something between 0 and 3!

''The scandinavian Pine trees of Netley Victoria Park'' ... takes me back to my yoof, jumpers-for-goalposts, three-and-in; who will we be today? Channon? Stokes? Osgood? David Peach if we had a penalty. Kids with heroes, running free on a bed of pine needles, thanks for brightening up the end of a long day!

McClaggon (sp?) was excellent away at Norwich, then got injured. Smith was shi7 in that game too, tho only for 45 minutes that time.

Can't add much more; schit selection, schit preperation, schit tactics. When we had 10-12 games left nobody would have had this game down for any points but failing to beat Charlton made this game massive and we threw it away inside the first 5 minutes. Unbelievable! Hard to give anybody a mark above a 2, all eleven players AND THE MANAGER are culpable for being 3 down in 20 minutes, ****-poor preparation at team and individual level. Who played 'well' after that is irrevelent, tho in fact nobody played very well and there is no MOM award available for this game. Davis 5, leaking goals and his distribution looks nervy James 5, defended manfully but didn't get fd to any great effect Perry/Size 4/4, must command the box better, particularly at set pieces Skacel 3, rubbish LB, move him to LM for last 4 games Smith 2, total shy7e, how he has stayed on the pitch for 180 minutes this week is beyond me Wotton 5, actually one of his better games! (completed 20% of his passes rather than the usual 10%) Morgan 2, joke selection in the context of the game, predictably he had nil impact Surman 4, no impact in midfield, did a passable impression of a LB in the second half DMG 5, didn’t do a lot right or a lot wrong, not sure why he was taken off? Saga 2, huffed and puffed but nil impact BWP 6, looked some sort of a threat and created two scoring chances for himself Euell 2, should have started but little impact when he did come on Lallana (6), not on long but had several good touches, needs to start last 4 games Wotte 0/10 .... go now, you are an embarrassment to the club. Last four games it’s shi7 or bust (or possibly both); my team to win three of the last four, .......................... KD ........................ JAMES ................ CP..........JPS ............SURMAN BWP .....EUELL .............DMG.........SKACEL ...................LALLANA................................ .......................SAGA.................................. For me we have to win 3 of the last 4, WOTTON must go, we can neither attack nor defend with him sitting in ‘holding’ midfield. Play a proper 4-4-2 with BWP and SKACEL to give the width. Don’t let SMITH within a mile of the first team. Withdraw SURMAN from midfield to full back (a la the end of last season). Restore LALLANA in his best position. Thoroughly depressing day today, Wolverhampton is a total dump, ‘away fans’ effectively barred from all town centre pubs, officious stewards and a police presence like a G20 protest (18 plod lined up across the outside of the away section turnstiles, ‘welcome to Molineux lads’). Fair play to their fans, they were rocking both ends of the stadium whereas ours, much like the team never really turned up.

Wotte a shambles, I thought the forum match was at the end of the season? Looking at that clueless, unorganised and downright unfit shower we were served up yesterday it looked like half our team were paying £100 to 'live the dream'. Honestly if they had put out TSF's A or B teams for the second half would anybody have noticed the difference? Wotte did they do for the last two weeks at training? It certainly wasn't fitness work, nor was it corners (beyond shocking) or set pieces (they were more threatening to the pigeons than the oppo goalkeeper). A real kick in the teeth for all those that made the effort to turn out, and for those that didn't (?), you've got to wonder if they deserve a club at all? I changed my weekend around and went the extra mile (in fact 300 miles) to be there, you have to be seriously worried if we can't sell out a game of that significance at £15/£5 ticket? To the game: Saints just didn't turn up, whether that was the 'events'. the break, the big crowd, the weather, or general 'resignation' we'll never know but when we needed our biggest performance we got nothing. Comedy goal down in the first five minutes, rescued by an excellent equaliser from DMG. Surely if we could hold out till halftime (I'll repeat that 'if we could hold out till halftime', that's against the bottom team in the league, at home, in front of 27,500 passionate fans playing for our survival in this league and as a footbal club with 124 years of proud history). Concede a ridiculous penalty, which KD saves with one of his more straightfd saves this season, and get to half time at 1-1. Perhaps Wotte's noticed that Jake Thomson isn't a RB? or that Lallana is having a complete mare, or that their LB is shi7 but we are not playing with any width down the right? Or that our route one hoof ball is creating next to nothing? Or that Rudi has already started his summer holidays (he should have gone the whole hog and bought a deck chair out second half). Wotte chooses to ignore the charms of BWP (at least he has pace) and Morgan (he must watch and weep how he can't get into a side containing JT, AL and Ryan Smith FFS!) and soldiers on with PLAN A! (where have we heard that before? and where has it got us??) with predictable consequences, Saints huff and puff, Charlton play intelligently on the break and give Saints a finishing lesson with two excellent goals. It's then all too little too late as Wotte makes subs and changes it around. We actually get up a decent head of steam in the last 15 minutes (why not the first 15 minutes?) and score a great BWP goal to reduce the deficit. Fans now screaming for a point (!) in a game that in the context of the league table should have been a gimme. Wasn't to be, the fans gave the players a decent (and undeserved) cheer off and no booing at all, tho there probably should have been. Davis 8; did what he's done all season JT 2; not his fault, not a right back and I quite rate him as a Div 1 R Midfielder which is what he will be next season Size 5; nerves (?) or just a bad day at the office? Perry 6; did his best but the whole of the back had a shocker Skacel 3; got forward once or twice in the first half but you would expect a lot more Lallana 1; absolute gash, last season he looked the real deal at West Brom and again at home against Sheff Utd. He has had his career blighted and potentially ruined by the events of the last 12 months, he needs to get out now and start again if he can. Wotton 4; would struggle in the league below DMG 7; he's grown on me (I'll go to the doctor first thing Monday) since Wotte came in. Works hard, excellent asset defensively in open play and at set pieces, and he scored a classic 'midfielder's goal' yesterday. He could do well in Lge 1. Surman 4; couple of strong runs in the first half, took two heavy challenges and I assume he was taken off at 1-3 to rest him for Watford. Still a big player for us. Euell 6; wholehearted and led from the front but nothing really came off for him today. Strong second half but very little evidence of a partnership with Saga and didn't ever look like scoring. Saga 4; nil service and a couple of decent snap shots but you would expect more from a current international wouldn't you? Subs. BWP 7, looked lively and interested and got a well-deserved and very good goal, should start RW on Tuesday. Smith 2, held his wide position well, then continually stopped the ball when we needed momentum. Poor delivery, poor player Liptak, thrown up front but predictably nill impact. Wotte 2; got it all wrong today, started with a decent side on paper (bar right back) but failed to react to the game in front of him till it was far to late. Rowing with the oppo's technical area shows 'passion' but he needs to commit that to the players. Charlton: came with no pressure and made the most of it. Keeper played well, the 2 brick CH's gave little away, they put their foot in when they had to and played football when they could (the Chinese number 5 was one of the best players I've seen this season), they took their chances well. On this evidence they are much better equipped for Lge 1 than we will be! Onwards to Watford and Wolves, we will need to improve 100% to get anything out of those games. After yesterday, I wouldn't bet on it.

inCiderDealing with Rosie

We'll walk the feeder leagues....

Very provocative Ponty but I'll take you up on that. I love the club, I love everything about the club, and it's been a big part of my life for 40+ years. Putting all that to one side I really don't think I could find the stomach for a phoenix 'New Saints' that included anything to do with RL. It's not the answer you want to hear but if you think it's been grim the last 5 years, wait for another 5 years of NuLowe... unless he has the backers that he has so conspicuously failed to produce so far Idon't think he'd last 6 months. Hopefully that's all hypothetical and it won't come to it but I for one wouldn't lose too much sleep if the choice was between the noSaints and the RL-Saints.

Surely too obvious.... If there was any chance of this we would have taken it 12 months ago? 'Dear Aviva, can we just play our last 3 games before we give the keys back?'; that's not going to happen, surely we would be trading fraudulently knowing that 6 weeks down the line we were going to knock Aviva for £20m? Why would Aviva sell back to New-Saints for a much lower price? The stadium site must have some limited potential for redevelopment even in the current straightened times, maybe for student or social housing if nothing else? Be very careful what you wish for; I've not seen much other comment on this but surely there is a very real risk (in splitting the 2 companies and then defaulting on the mortgage) that Saints will lose the ground and end up homeless and ground-sharing? To avoid this type of scene unwinding (defaulting on the mortgage) surely we have to a reasonable level of investment from the new owners? I can not see any way in which we can simply walk away from the mortgage and carry on playing at SMS?

But it's never as simple as that is it? 1 We got relegated 2 We employed an uncaring, shambolic drunk of a manger 3 We spent too much on wages and transfer fees for mostly dross (Idiakez FFS) 4 We mainted a near-Premier Lge set-up in terms of academy/squad-size/off the field ops/ticket prices etc. 5 We bought back one of the most despised and divisive chairmen in the whole of the football league 6 We continued (and still continue) to employ unfit, injury prone, uncaring, unprofessional players 7 We failed to actively seek out alternative funding/ownership (going as far as to actively discourage 'inward investment') 8 We failed to make any meaningful bond with the spectators/fans ('customers' if you will) and grow any loyalty and community base (au contraire 'the fans' have been consistently lied to and patronised) 9 We removed the most popular and only half-decent manager we have had since WGS and replaced him with an unproven and inexperienced foreign Dream Team with a mission to get out of the CCC (which end?) playing 'revolutionary football'. 10 We have demoralised our core support to a point where the combination of ticket prices/ lack of success/unpopular leadership (closing the corners being but one small example)/overall 'negative' match day experience/recession (throw in presumaby another relegation) will see ST sales down below 10K next season. Which of 2-10 is/was/were inevitable?

Would it be fair to say we are running out of must-win games? I drew a line after we didn't beat Sheff Utd, we then won 3 out of 3 (false hope) and since then have reverted strictly to type. For what it's worth I don't think we will get more than 5 points from the 3 remaining home games, that leaves us probably wanting 10 points from the 5 away games... we will do very, very well if we can take it to the last day....

Surman RB BWP RM Mills LB Skacel LM Would freshen it up a bit?

Possibly the draw that broke the camel's back? Coat's on ...........

Over-priced, over-hyped, and over here. I can't help thinking we'd have been better off with £1.2m-worth of Robbie Savages / Darren Moores / Matt Oakleys / Jay Tabbs (or even. shock-horror, a full season of Skacel/Saga/Euell). LOWE OUT.

My thoughts at the start of the season were pretty much what is now the consensus: we had an inexperienced and inflexible manager, total voetbal ballacks, the kids would struggle with the mental and physical side, we wouldn't score enough goals, we didn't have a strong enough or a balanced back 4, Killer wouldn't play 10 games, etc etc. I posted at the time that if RL thought we could play a season in the CCC with just 2-3 experienced pro's and fill the side with yoof and inexperienced 20-somethings then in terms of staying in this league we could 'put our collective head between our knees and kiss our ar5es goodbye'.... to which some far-sighted poster (and I don't know who it was) replied 'then you'd better get ready to lean forward and pucker up!' Sir, I salute your prescience!

Can't see any reason why we can't go there and get something; we're on a roll and they are on a wobble. They've taken 2 wins and 6 goals scored from a fairly non-descript run of seven fixtures. Most recent first Sheff Wed A 1-2L Palace A 0-0D Cov A 0-1L Forest H 2-0W Burnley H 1-1D Shef Weds A 1-1D Derby H 1-0W Put that against our current form of three solid wins, all against top-half-of -he-table teams, and that surely puts us in with a shout? Players and fans need to go their with every confidence and keep this run going ... we seem to have hit on the magic formula of scoring goals (Saga/JE) and not letting too many in (much improved back 4 recently). Brum 0 Saints 2 (DMcG, JE)

Awesome away day, a real ‘I was there’ game; Saints were outstanding from the first minute to the last. Game started brightly with Saints on top pretty much from the off. Players and fans were well up for it and the only surprise was it took us so long to break through, fair play to us though as we kept doing the right things, solid no-nonsense defending, shed-loads of work in the middle of the park, and inventive forward play in just about every attack. Hard to see the reason for the first disallowed goal but no mistake moments later from Euell with a clinical finish beyond Wright for the first. We ended the first-half right on top and could easily have gone in 3 or 4 up. Ipswich were always going to come steaming out second half and we weathered some early pressure immediately after half time though we were still playing well on the break. As the game became more stretched a Saints second looked inevitable and after a succession of misses (and several top saves from Wright) Euell grabbed a well-earned second; game-over and streams of Ipswich fans to the exits, before Patterson’s excellent late finish wrapped it up. An absolute stuffing for a team that had only lost 2 in the previous 10 and who were playing for a play-off position. No mistake, this was genuine top-2 form, forget the play-offs, if we had played this side all year we would be right up there now! Davis 7, did the basics well but didn’t have too much to do. James 7, most-improved player in the side, not too much to do. defensively but seems a really committed part of the new team ethic Perry and Size, a pair of 8’s, neither put a foot wrong all night, a really solid partnership at this level. Skacel 7, solid in defence and always willing to get forward. Morgan 7, not sure R Mid is really his position but he worked hard and played some decent forward passes (he even made a tackle though he didn’t look much like winning any headers!) Gillett 8, excellent, seems to have really found his position; distribution still erratic but can’t fault his work rate. Looks like he really wants to be out there playing for Saints Surman 8, the Steady-Eddy of the side, so good you don’t notice him all the time. Fantastic work rate, always taking the correct option; with better finishing from others he could easily have had 3 assists. McGoldrick 9 MOM, worked his nuts off in defence and attack and really seems to have found his position in attacking-mid. Not everything he tries comes off but he never dropped his head and his defending-from-the-front was the cornerstone of our performance. Great little links with the front two and a real goal scoring threat from midfield (how long since we had one of those?) Euell 9, same old, same old. Led from the front, prodigious workrate and two great finishes. Saga 8.5, looked sharp and willing throughout, though he missed two one-ones he would normally swallow. He will get even better now his match-fitness is returning; a real handful at this level Sub. Patterson, really composed finish (and top celebration). Wotte-watch. 11/10! I wasn’t keen at the time but I’m not going to look a gift horse in the mouth! Seems to have got us doing the simple things well, welded onto a great team spirit. Ref watch: D’Urso – superb, easily the best ref in this league. Fans 10! – just like the old days! Non-stop support, I can’t remember more than the odd snatches when there wasn’t a song going and just about everybody joining in. Ipswich? WTF? They just didn’t turn up, the fans or the team. I like to see them doing OK but they were a shadow of any Ipswich side I’ve seen previously, can’t see JM being there next season. PMSL at the thread at the weekend ‘Did RL nearly get it right?’; on last night’s evidence he couldn’t have got it more WRONG! If we had played Skacel (Size) Euell Saga from day one we would now be playing to crowds of 25K+ and sitting comfortably in the top-6. GGGRRRRRHHHH!!!

Next season we are going to have the 'Do-you-definitely-think-we-are-going-to-get-relegated?' poll in early September, we will reply in an approximate raio of 90% Yes - 10% No; players will get large kick up ar5e and start to turn in a 100% home record, we will get into play-offs (easily). Don't see how this can fail and it's definitely a better plan than the one we went into this season with....