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Doesn't need to be said mate. I just say I'm driving which is true. Nobody gives a shit anyway, especially if they're drinking. Dodgy blood test results gave me the kick as well. I'm living with a few war wounds from it, but it could we worse, and would have been had I carried on.

Good man. When you're out for dinner and splitting the bill with drinkers, just make sure you get the king prawns and truffles to get your dollars worth!

I'm still off it, been years now. I love no hangovers, being able to get up and get on with the day, no beer belly, no regrets about what I did / said when pissed, etc. Give it a try for a while Del and see how you feel. It ain't for anyone, but a booze free life suits me.

Every article I read on the charter is about land, not the killing of Jews. That seems to be a social media interpretation. You'd think that the Israeli's wouldn't down play it, but any charter that seeks for jewish people to live in misery plainly doesn't want them all dead - those 2 positions are incompatible! Anyways, where we do agree is that Hamas are scum, and that the Israeli's ain't behaved brilliantly either. Hopefully there's a resolution and peace at some point.

Propaganda

It wasn't. This misinformation is dangerous., and you're pushing forward a message that's not even supported by Israeli produced material. See this article produced by the Israeli government regarding the Hamas charter...https://embassies.gov.il/holysee/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/The%20Hamas-Covenant.aspx It emphasises that: "HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS Covenant:" 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33) It's Jihad against the Israeli state. Not all Jewish people. They want liberation, and the Jews vanquished, not killed. Sure, some will die in that quest, but it's wrong to keep spouting the nonsense that Hamas want all Jews dead, and that is a bar to peace talks. Hopefully you'd accept that the Israeli government probably know what they're fighting against...

Nope. They're cunts. It's the suggestion that they want all Jews dead. Something that they couldn't do even if that was their stated aim.

And the text that I've referred to, and the large document I've linked to, comes from ITIC who are an Israeli based research group with links to the IDF. I think it reasonable to assume that they wouldn't translate in favour of Hamas. Hamas want land. They want Jews to live a life of misery. You can't want people to live any sort of life if you apparently want them dead.

Where's this bit in the article I posted? "The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)(18)". There is a world of difference between killing those infidels that Hamas are in conflict with, and all Jews. Don't get me wrong, the 7/10 attacks and the subsequent threat suggests that Hamas see any Jew/Israeli as fair game. Anyways, no point in getting bogged down on this. We both agree that Hamas are evil. What we won't agree on is that the Israeli government are evil in a different way.

Yep, the charter was a bit of an eye opener on the culture and mentality. Not aligned with mine, but that is what it is. Yep, it's clear that it wants all the land back. And yep, it's clear that Hamas expects everyone to join the fight... having voted them in once upon a time, I wander if Hamas would argue that everyone should be cool with being a human shield as a way of joining the fight? Possibly. Regardless, it doesn't call for the death of all Jews.

Yep. Conflict with the infidels - not the death of all Jews. Jihad against the Israeli state - not the death of all Jews. Nowhere does it call for the death of all Jews. What it actually says is that all Jews are "worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery" - Living a life of misery is not death. You'll find it there if you read it, but you won't find a call to kill all Jews - something which would be an impossible task even if Hamas had Israel's military machine and their will to use it.

I last saw him a couple of years ago in Shirley. Same suit. I've never seen someone look so scruffy in a suit.

Interesting. This calls for jihad against Israel (and it's eradication). That's not the Jewish people. https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/Data/pdf/PDF_06_032_2.pdf

Very good 🤣😂🤣

The only answer is the lovely theory that the Palestinians and the Israeli's have a state each and leave the other alone. The problem is that neither of them want that.

The charter is Hamas. Hamas are not all Palestinians. Benji was not referring to Hamas. He said "If you don't believe that there is a significant population of people who want to kill all Jews come what may, then by extension you believe there could be a solution. I don't see how anyone can sensibly argue that the current Israeli actions will contribute to a long term solution".

I've answered the question directed at you. Their 2006 manifesto is clear. So is their later accord. Have a read. If you say that they changed their mind before their 2017 accord, crack on and post a link please.

I think it was their 2017 or so accord. They were elected in 2006 based on a softer position, then went loopier in or around 2017. Without the usuals piping up about equivalence and whataboutery, one can't ignore that the Israeli settlement policies and general behaviour in West Bank seems to suggest that they ain't keen on allowing a Palestinian state to live in peace either.

Is it our role to instill regime change in other countries? It seems that Iran only becomes it supplies cash and weapons to others. The plight if the Iranian people is different to the plight of the Palestinians.

How do you think that an uprising in Iran would end for the Iranian people? He says "The people on the ground will then take care of the rest". If only it were that easy - look at Syria. I also think that we have a fusion of two motivations. The Iranian one, and the Palestinian resistance/vengeance one. Addressing the former without focus on the Israeli policies and activities which (in part at least) underpin the latter, ain't gonna get us very far.

Thanks. That's an interesting iece. Point 3 is very interesting in terms of his take on the religious fundamentalism which he feels underpins this from the Iranian side. Although that addresses the Iranian motivation to fund a Palestinian fight, it overlooks the Palestinian motivation. I don't buy for one moment that the Palestinians are fighting for the reappearance of the Mahdi rather than independence and release from oppression. His proposed solution is regime change in Israel, essentially brought about by international ostracisation of Iran, prompting an uprising in Iran. Basically that'll be Syria on a bigger scale. Is that a sensible solution? He also says "The IRI have not changed their behaviour one iota in 44 years. Sanctioning them is like being attacked by a group of zombies and politely asking them if they would consider a vegan diet". Is the same not true of the Israel government in terms of UN resolutions re settlements and the treatment of the Palestinians? As interesting as it is, it's one man's take.

Can't disagree with that Hypo. The issue is, and as Whelk raised, whether they'll blame Israel or Hamas. I can't help but think that events like today's attack on the refugee camp (that, to take out one man) will leave them blaming Israel and seeing Hamas as their hope of salvation. Who knows. Clusterfuck doesn't come close.

It's only going one way sadly. Israel won't row backwards, and neither will Palestinian supporters. Worrying times.

Indeed. The sad thing is that I suspect that many want to see Hamas gone, but obviously not at the price they're paying. At the end it this, Gaza and Hamas won't exist in the form that it was before 7/10, but christ knows what happens then.

Strange points. 1 - the behaviour of the Hamas loons on 7/10 has nothing to do with the remaining (vast majority of) Palestinians being stuck with a "government" that they didn't vote for! 2 - the lack of Gaza democracy doesn't mean that Gaza people who would like a democracy should have to go to Egypt and / or Egypt have to take them. Jeez.