david in sweden

.....yes BUT ...does he like duck shooting, though ?

Not nowadays of course, but the opening of this thread asked about the apparant " hostility " between the two clubs/ fans - and that goes back a very long way.(see my earlier history)

FOR THE RECORD. Only 3 Saints players in the last 20 years have achieved 20 goals in a season. Rasiak, Beattie ..and Matt Le Tissier (3 TIMES),so Stern John's 19 looks good.

think that's closer to the truth , BUT ...a goal is a goal in the record books.

You may be right about the " current day fans " but I can assure you that neither my generation (1960's onwards ) or my fathers (1930-50) were very enamoured with Spurs as a team (or their fans). Yes they've had a long time at the top--but apart from their famous "double side " and a few cups - they come a long way behind Man.U, Liverpool, Arsenal and even the modern Chelsea side. Even N.Forest, Leeds, Ipswich, Everton, Blackburn and Villa all have a much better record than Spurs in the period 1980-2000. In the period 66-73 Spurs finished 3rd twice and were often only mid-table. When we regained DIV.1 status (77/78) we were 2nd ..and Spurs were 3rd. In the following 15 years, the best Spurs made was 3rd twice. 4 times we finished above them, and were within a point or so ..on 4 other occasions. Since Premier League started (1992 ) - we've struggled a lot but Spurs have been little better. Best placing 7th, (94/95) but then often below mid table and on 3 occasions they finished below Saints. Not a lot to brag about for a team who've laid out hundreds of £millions in transfers fees in that time. I think I'd have expected more if I'd been a shareholder. Though Spurs may not be in Rupert Lowe's league (for managerial changes) they have had a lot of changes in the Board room and managers chair. (Sorry Spurs, I know 'arry has rescued you this time, but it won't last - he's always on for a new payday, is 'arry ! ... Be warned! Next step is ....he'll get rid of Gareth Bale !

Mmm.... think they've got their stats. a bit wrong. Stern John is the second most-capped player ever for Trinidad and Tobago. in fact 104 caps ...and 69 goals. (still not bad though) (Wikipedia) He started his career in USA, then played for half a dozen prem sides In England (around 250 games) before moving to us - where he turned out 47 times and scored 19 goals before being loaned to Bristol City. (24 games - 2 goals.) Little irony was he scored 3 goals v. HULL in Dec.07 - but they still managed to win the play-offs to Prem.- but looks like they'll be back down this season.

Interesting..but I think there is a longer history. (much of this info. came from my late-father who was a Saints fan in the 1930's ..and the postwar period 1946 -on). There seemed to be a lot of respect for Arsenal (who had signed Ex Saints Ted Drake in 1934 and the record sum of ...£6000 ( kept Saints from bankruptcy) and Drake scored all SEVEN goals in a League game v. Aston Villa (A. won 7-1 at Villa Park in 1935) and Drake was one of SEVEN Arsenal players who played for England in the same match 1937 ? ..and beat Italy 4-1). Arsenal were a great side and we had respect for them. HOWEVER ..In the post war period 1946 - Tottenham is another story. Apart from mediocre sides like Fulham and West Ham, Spurs were the " top " London side in the division. Even so Saints often managed to finish above these teams (whilst narrowly missing promotion themselves THREE seasons in a row. 1948/9/50). BUT (with Pompey in Div 1..Saints loved to beat Spurs - which we regularly did) At the time Saints had a reserve full back ALF RAMSEY, who had difficulty getting a start because the regulars; Bill Ellerington and Bill Rochford were superb, but nevertheless both Ellerington and Ramsey were chosen to play as England full backs in the same season 1948/9. Sadly Ellerington contracted pneumonia (a killer disease at the time) and was out for a year. Ramsey came in and went from strength to strength and (some say) he was lured away to Tottenham, the following year and Spurs won the title (with Ramsey in their defence) ...while Saints were 4th). Many fans felt anger toward both Spurs AND Ramsey. From here on - it was all downhill and Saints were relegated 3 years later. Ramsey went on to captain England, and manage Englands World Cup win in 1966 - the year Saints were promoted to Div.1 (first time). Cue another transfer-this time Martin Chivers -another record fee £125K. and Chivers was Englands no.9. I've met fans from every part of the country, but Spurs fans always seemed to be amongst the most arrogant there are, whilst Liverpool (who have a far greater record of success are nearly always open and fair to both sides). In his famous comment about " not being dictated to by a load of North London yobbos " - (over the Glenn Hoddle defection) -I found a rare occasion when I was in total agreement with Rupert Lowe on an issue. Games between the two sides have always been the subject of controversy, and often anger over on-field decisions (and for our part often humiliating defeats)..and Spurs fans are not gracious to their opponents in victory, and you'll find it hard to find a Spurs fan who will sympathise with our fate. In short -(to my generation) -if you couldn't beat Pompey, then you'd love to beat Spurs ! There have been moments of satisfaction (and revenge). Despite Hoddles' Spurs beating Saints heavily in his first season, we had the consolation of beating Spurs (away) sometime later - the impatient Spurs Board sacked Hoddle the next week ! Goes back to old tribal rivalry doesn't it ?

Oops - I seemed to have upset you on that one, Duncan As I was reminising over my 50 years as a Saints fan, I tried to take a unbiased view though the smoke of the recent years. Few people will argue that RL was well-liked, or even vaguely likeable. I've met many people in my time from rogues to royalty, and I always felt RL manner was very condescending and HIS management style- totally ruthless. The three things I mentioned were, I concluded, the most positive (from the clubs point of view). The Stadium (obviously) has more potential as a venue than the 30 odd days a year when Saints play there. The other two items were shrewd and brought in the extra income to the club. I can't help feeling that we should have had that acumen when selling Alan Shearer (£3.3 mill to Blackburn) who later sold him to Newcastle for £16 million.(Total incompetence by the Board of that time). 20% of that " sell-on " was lost. ...and to this day .. I don't know how he engineered the Walcott deal, when TW was legally entitled to walk away and join Arsenal for nothing ! Others have also added that the emergence of the Academy was a big plus and I don't argue that although, I think there were other factors, too.Nearly all his management appointments were plagued with some problem or another and apart from (then) Hoddle and later Strachan - there is little to enthuse over. I didn't say I liked him (RL). I'm pleased he's gone but I'm glad to think that even in League 1 - we won't have to play home games at The Dell again. (Wonderful though it was - at the time).

well Docker, I did actually say that I couldn't think of more than 3 things we could be grateful to RL for. YES-Delgado was a bad deal - wasn't it ? Strachan said that he had no control over the situation as it was already "a done deal " before he (Strachan) came to the club. Schneiderlin probably does have potential but you can't expect so much from an 18 year old coming into a struggling side. Thats a bit unfair. Tony Pulis was recovering from an injury when he came, as has never got match fit. It's better to judge him when he plays regularly. He (RL) definitely did the wrong thing in not retaining Pearson...! (as we see) (but I don't think MW is as bad as some people paint him.) and SORRY .. but according to an interview I saw (and read elsewhere) Hitler was a lousy painter - and was TWICE refused entry to Vienna's Art Academy. Pity really, it would have made the 20th century a lot more peaceful time. I wonder if ...Rupert Lowe likes to paint ..?

........can't think of too many more....... 1) Building SMS . I'd spent most of my supporting days at The Dell - and loved every moment of it.....but St.Mary's is a WONDERFUL stadium . Can't get away from that. In the previous 40 years - not once did the previous Boards get antwhere near even breaking the ground. I know people said we were " given " the site cheap etc, etc, but at least it got built and we can be proud of that - even in League 1. It seems Crouch / Beattie and a few more contracts had sell -on clauses. 2) RL inserted " sell-on " clauses in many deals when we sold players. No-one else seemed to have thought of it - and we got some extra for that. (Just read MW on the Dyer/Swansea story.Seems like RL foresaw possibililties. 3) RL also inserted clauses in players contracts about reduced salaries if relegated - and many will argue that he was responsible for the relegations...but at least we won'r have to retain players on enormously high slaries. That would have made the situation EVEN WORSE! Difficult to find too much more to enthuse about RL....except his departure, but even so....how much worsd eoff would we be WITHOUT the thrre items above?

Interesting .......! ..any chance any of these players might turn out for SFC in the future ?

YES, well my bithday is on May 16th - so I'm expecting some GOOD NEWS!

well on the injured side... a couple of guys who signed (each time breaking the club transfer record..) but we were sold to us a " dummy " as they were carrying injuries when they arrived ...(and scacely played regularly afterwards): Charlie George £600K (WOW!) club record in Mar. 1979 . 52 games 14 gls. and Agustin Delgado £3.25 m (OUCH !) Nov. 2001 ??? 10 games ? or was it more? WARNING : Expensive players aren't fitter than anyone else!

YES ! - but still loyal.

I wonder if this is a case of HCDAJFU (on the part of Leicester fans ), or is there more substance in the rumour from NP side ?

I understood from MW 's comments that Liptak wanted to be back because his home club were in with a chance of a good finish to the season and he wanted to be available for them as cover for injury. Doesn't mean that he'll suddenly become a regular with them again, so a return to SMS might not be out of the question.

Well said Stanley, that sounds like the real spirit of Saints. As a fan of 50 years standing (most of it under the West Stand at The Dell) The memory of a place in " the third division " is not strange to me, but it really doesn't matter that much. Just like you I look forward to the next Saints game (and win) regardless of who is manager or centre-forward.....another game! COYR !!!!!!!!

speaking of which....... interesting little news item.....on the BBC sport site... ' arry R. has given his son Jamie a two-day a week coaching job at Spu*s (whilst he is studying for his coaching badges). HR said that Tim (Sherwood) and Les (Ferdinand ) were doing " a great job " but sooner or later ........ ....." a lower league club would surely give them a chance ......" Sounds like HR is planning their exit and a step up for Jamie - but what will happen to Tim and Les ???

Couldn't agree more Nick. In our new situation, we need some old fashioned muscle up front and a bit of steel(e) in the back four. Like many I can remember the likes of John McGrath and Dave Watson had in our defence years ago. ..and Oh for another George Kirby (type) at no.9 Ah well, we'll have to wait and see.

of course it's a good way for an agent to create interest in a player when there is none.. but iF indeed he has improved then it's only because he's had a year or more experience since he was with us . He was pretty " green " then - but if he's as good as Liverpool think then they won't want him to go anywhere.

Whats your point exactly...? Do you think that they won't be sober enough to start the next game ..which is in August I think. They have a holiday until training starts in mid June, so it's best that they relax and get rid of their stress now, rather than stay home and cry about it.

IF .........Ronaldo continues to score goals as he has recently........and continues to do it for the next 5 years...then it will be a close race, but for me... it has to be MLT....(as we're never likely to see CR in a Saints shirt !)

........not to mention, he is one of only three players to have scored 20 goals in a season ......in the last 20 years. The others are; Matt Le Tissier (three times) and James Beattie.

.......and yet another reason for having the fourth official in front of the TV - the camera cannot lie! The game has really degenerated when the fans at home can see 6 replays of every incident on TV ..while the ref. has his own dubious eyesight to trust and frequently makes errors. Wait for it to happen again in the Final...Ferguson will throw a fit, get himself sent to the stands.. when it'll be the ref's fault anyway. The TV watching fans will see one game, whilst the ref. will have his own Hollywood script for the game. FIFA have it all wrong when they say that it reduces the responsibility of the ref. when what it does is diminish the respect that players and fans have for them. Chelsea had FIVE shouts for penalties in the match and a couple were certainly worth the effort . IMHO The red card was rather doubtful, especially as he wasn't the last man - and hardly touched the Chelsea player.

maybe...... he's just there to clean out his office desk and return his car parking priveliges, and get a bargain or two from the Saints shop !