View From The Top Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 Cracking, you didn't get that HND for nothing did you! If you're referring to the Unions, then no, of course it isn't. Teachers are free not to join if they wish. 1/2 of my faculty belong to no union. There is no requirement at all to be a member of a union. Also notable that the ATL have never taken strike action previously and that just over 1/2 of the membership are from the militant/socialist background of fee paying schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 Couldn't have put it better myself: 'You've been told there's no money by a government that has plenty of money to drop bombs on other countries just to keep the armed forces happy; is quite happy to forgo millions in tax to keep the rich happy; is delighted to allow corporations and banks to waste millions in bonuses for individuals rather than paying the money back into the society to whom they owe it. There is no good reason not to fund schools and universities properly. The government has chosen not to - one can only imagine because they'd rather reserve education for wealthy elites. This is a disastrous choice from every perspective. Don't endorse it by suggesting that it was neccessary. It wasn't. These open threats by Tory MPs to break the unions are a disgrace. Not only do they expect the people of the country to tug their forelocks and say: 'yes, cut my pension, m'lud, I don't deserve it anyway', but they want to make it illegal to have a different opinion from the government about our own working conditions and to express that opinion in the only way that has even the slightest chance of being heard: through strikes. We wouldn't have to strike if a world-class education system wasn't being ****ed up by a bunch of wealthy tossers who are equally without brains and consciences.' Yet strangely, they started a pointless war in Libya due to their government doing exactly that! Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 I am a civil servant but I won't be striking on Thursday. Not because I don't agree with the sentiment but I don't agree with strikes. I also think it is not unreasonable to change the pension structure for new starters given the state of the economy. But to change it now for people who have been working (mostly on below average wages) for the public secor for years is just plan wrong. The view of the vast majority I'd suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 Please leave him alone. He worked hard for that HND. I'd like to see you get an HND with the kind of learning difficulties that he has. Poor Tristan, he tries so hard and yet, as with life, it turns out cr@p. No wonder he's so bitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 Well, in the post of mine that you quoted, I gave an example of just one multi-national company not paying it's due taxes. There are loads more - Top Shop, Barclays, Tescos to name but a few. But the public sector had already accepted in principle the idea of larger contributions / final salary schemes being scrapped for average salary schemes. The teachers were in constructive negotiation with the government about how best to achieve savings - until the Chief Secretary to the Treasury put his big yellow foot in it by saying it was a 'done deed'. Any wonder the teachers' unions were angry? That's not how to negotiate and shows just how naive this coalition is. Danny Alexander made his speech on June 17th, two days AFTER the one day strike was announced by the unions. So the unions announce a strike in the middle of talks with the government, is that how to negotiate? 'All we see from this government is cuts after cuts,affecting everyones lifes,apart from the super rich of course. Things are only going to get worse while this bunch of clowns stay in power.' I think you'll find that Labour were planning on a similar scale of cuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 (edited) Poor Tristan, he tries so hard and yet, as with life, it turns out cr@p. No wonder he's so bitter. You do post some crap. F/ck it. This is stupid. Edited 26 June, 2011 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 You do post some crap. pot, kettle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 pot, kettle. I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 Nick, here's an example I've worked up for you: A clerical worker in the NHS, with an average salary of £15K and 20 years service will get a pension of £3750 p.a. and the total contribution that worker will have made to his / her pension over the 20 years' service is £18000. However I do know that many NHS clerical workers will not be able to afford a pension contribution of £900 pa and not many stay with the NHS for 20 years. That's a very good return for £18,000. A typical annuity for a 65 year old with that amount would be more like £1150, not indexed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 Nobody went on strike when Gordon Brown stole billions from private sector pensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 Nobody went on strike when Gordon Brown stole billions from private sector pensions. http://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/money/paullewis/PensionsPiggyBankRaid.asp Brown's pension raid The story of Gordon Brown’s 'Pension Raid' is more politics than finance, says Paul Lewis Like whisky, official advice to Ministers matures with age. And the ten-year-old mash that was uncorked on Friday night was a brew to savour. Here at last in 87 pages of confidential briefings to the Chancellor before his 1997 Budget are the figures which everyone knew but the Treasury would not admit. Until it was forced to do so after the dogged use of the Freedom of Information Act by The Times. But the story of Brown’s Pension Raid (Financial Times) is more politics than finance. Yes, in his first Budget as Chancellor Gordon Brown made a complex change to company tax that cost pension funds collectively about £4 billion a year. We knew that. The hit could be absorbed by total surpluses of around £60 billion. We knew they were big. “The pensions industry will complain vigorously….we do not believe these claims are realistic.” So what is new in the revelations of the Great Pensions Heist (Sunday Times) that has filled more than 150 newspaper articles and led news bulletins over the last five days? Well not much really. We can certainly see that Brown’s Tax Raid (The Daily Telegraph) was not made against the advice of Treasury officials. At no point did they warn against it. Rather they made clear that the tax change was supposed to be offset by increases in the pension contributions paid by companies. These were the same companies after all who had saved £18 billion by paying less into pension schemes over the previous ten years and in a desperate bid to keep their surpluses down had increased the pensions promised by nearly £9 billion and allowed employees to pay £1 billion less in. If all that money – nearly £30 billion – was made available over the next ten years it would have easily made up for the £100 billion Stealth Tax (The Times). And who introduced the rules that made them take this money out of pensions? Conservative Chancellor Nigel Lawson. One voice of sanity in the discussions on Brown’s Pension Fund Raid (The Guardian) has been the respected pensions actuary Stephen Yeo from Watson Wyatt, a former pensions adviser to the Conservatives. He said on Radio 4 that Brown’s Raid on Pensions (Independent) was “not even in the top three reasons” for the current difficulties of pension schemes. Increasing life expectancy, post-millennium plunges in stock markets, and rule changes which meant early leavers left with more and those who stayed on retired with more, were all of greater importance. So it’s politics. Stop Gordon at any price. That may – or may not – be a good thing. But let’s not pretend it’s about Pensions Vandalism (Daily Mail). It isn’t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 ...and now Gove is asking parents to break the strike action?!? Yeah, why don't we see how well that works/how 'up for it' non teachers are. What a ****ing incompetent **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted 26 June, 2011 Share Posted 26 June, 2011 Yes we may all agree that the private sector were shafted with their pensions, and people may say no one took any notice when such funds were being plundered. But the public sector are the ones who many years ago were not getting decent pay rises, on the pretence that they would have their money defferd until pension time. They accepted lower pay rises whilst the private sector boomed. Now they are expected to have those contracts they signed, in some cases a 40+ year commitment ripped up. How many people in the private sector provide teaching, health care, waste collection, policing, armed forces, fire services etc. and if they do you have to pay extra. People go into public sector jobs to serve those who do not wish to do such jobs. Why didn't more people go into such jobs? Was it low wages offered. If they were to change the pension for new enterants, oh sorry they already agreed that a couple of years back, then newcomers would know the score, although changing governments seem to change the goalposts, then that would seem fairer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 (edited) are any of you going to cross picket lines.....???? my sympathy for any strike like this died when the firemen went on strike and it completely and royally shafted me directly...and we did the job, pretty much unqualified, with completely out of date kit and with a fraction of the numbers..after that, the firemen lost credibility for the strike... I will never forget that we attended a serious house fire....all we had was an "advisor" from the fire service..and this house fire was very serious and the kit we had was not adequate at all....we were NOT allowed to use the government paid red appliances...when people were sent back to get some of the kit in one..the striking officers locked the garage it was in and created a stand off....putting not only my mates but the public lives directly at risk.... plymouth has its many faults but it is the size of southampton and a hugely populated forces city....with that, the fire service had very LITTLE support here...fair play ever since then I really find it hard to muster sympathy for strikers in this nature. Edited 27 June, 2011 by Thedelldays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Fwiw my politics has always been left of centre, I've always voted labour, but I have no sympathy what-so-ever with the teachers. I’m fed up with people in well paid jobs whining about how tough they have it, be grateful you have a job. The company I work for have had so little come in during the last year that I fully expect to be made redundant, I’ve been hanging on by my finger tips and honestly can’t believe I’m still here, I’ve not had a pay rise for 2 years, which in real terms is a pay cut and my wife’s hours have been cut. (She’s NHS, and for Dunes benefit, she isn’t in a union.). My eldest son was supposed to be doing the first part of his DofE expedition course on Wednesday & Thursday, this has been cancelled because of the strike. I shelled out nearly £200 on walking boots, sleeping bag, rucksack, clothing etc which will not now be used. Thanks guys. I appreciate teachers do a difficult job, and from my experience they generally do it well, but then, so do many of us. When I retire, (in about 23 year time) I really don’t know what I’m going to do for an income. I had my pension statement delivered on Saturday, and I’m currently looking at £3500 pa, clearly this nor or my wife’s pension (which is less than mine) will sustain us in our dotage and we can’t afford to increase the payments. You’re not the only ones to have it tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenevaSaint Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 are any of you going to cross picket lines.....???? I will never forget that we attended a serious house fire....all we had was an "advisor" from the fire service..and this house fire was very serious and the kit we had was not adequate at all....we were NOT allowed to use the government paid red appliances...when people were sent back to get some of the kit in one..the striking officers locked the garage it was in and created a stand off....putting not only my mates but the public lives directly at risk.... A disgrace when it's public money that's paid for these appliances and fair play to the members of the armed forces that put their lives on the line in a role they're not trained to do. TDD, my hat goes off to everyone who stepped in during the firefighters last strike. I shall not be crossing a picket line, not read Gove's "plan", but I have a job to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Thanks Dell days You brought back memories of the fire strike . Those wonderful green goddesses with leaky hose pipes. and old ladies bringing us sandwiches and hot food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 (edited) Thanks Dell days You brought back memories of the fire strike . Those wonderful green goddesses with leaky hose pipes. and old ladies bringing us sandwiches and hot food. it was funny as fook.... speeding it to a fire/incident at a rate of 30MPH MAX....with a transit van behind you with all the gear.. one time, my job was to ring the bell on the godess (it did not have a siren)...hahaha yet we did it and showed the firemen that their 47% pay rise demand was way OTT here in plymouth, there is a fire station right opposite one of the main entrances to the dockyard...someone erected a huge banner for the public to see saying "47%, your 'aving a laugh"...that got more support and 'honks' from the car horns than those across the rd on strike....thanks to that and then the iraq war, it was almost 18 months before I got a day off ******s Edited 27 June, 2011 by Thedelldays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Interesting to read the views of some people who will be striking on Thursday http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/26/case-studies-workers-explain-picket-lines?intcmp=239 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 A disgrace when it's public money that's paid for these appliances and fair play to the members of the armed forces that put their lives on the line in a role they're not trained to do. TDD, my hat goes off to everyone who stepped in during the firefighters last strike. I shall not be crossing a picket line, not read Gove's "plan", but I have a job to do! I doubt that many parents are CRB checked either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 are any of you going to cross picket lines.....???? I never would but those striking have agreed not to picket so we don't have that dilemma. All are hoping that it will be called off as none of them want to be on strike but know they have to fight this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 I never would but those striking have agreed not to picket so we don't have that dilemma. All are hoping that it will be called off as none of them want to be on strike but know they have to fight this. First strike in 127 years for the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 First strike in 127 years for the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, I believe. It is, and just over 1/2 their members are from fee paying schools! Oddly enough two fee paying (prep) schools, local to me, are closed for the strike yet my kids state school is open! The ATL folk at my place are gutted but determined to fight this and they are the sandals with socks brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 ...and now Gove is asking parents to break the strike action?!? Yeah, why don't we see how well that works/how 'up for it' non teachers are. What a ****ing incompetent **** Parents used to sit in on classes when there was snow a few years ago and some teachers couldn't get in. I think it's a good idea. What you've got to appreciate is that the selfish behaviour of the millitant teachers affects others. Private sector workers get maybe 20-30 days holiday pey year so not everyone can take time off while you lot are striking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 (edited) I can just see the Daily Mail headline if parents without a CRB come in and "look after" the children. Dear oh dear, Gove really thought that one through again didn't he. Edited 27 June, 2011 by LGTL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Private sector workers get maybe 20-30 days holiday pey year so not everyone can take time off while you lot are striking. How many days holiday do you think public sector staff get, ( other than teachers -that's a different argument ) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 How many days holiday do you think public sector staff get, ( other than teachers -that's a different argument ) ? Too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Too many. (I don't know the answer either, I just like to talk out of my arse like you! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Parents used to sit in on classes when there was snow a few years ago and some teachers couldn't get in. I think it's a good idea. What you've got to appreciate is that the selfish behaviour of the millitant teachers affects others. Private sector workers get maybe 20-30 days holiday pey year so not everyone can take time off while you lot are striking. Well dunce, if you know enough parents that are CRB checked, which is a LEGAL requirement, then they can be my guest and take over my classes for the day. If they're not CRB checked, I hope the tory pet papers lambast this moronic idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Well dunce, if you know enough parents that are CRB checked, which is a LEGAL requirement, then they can be my guest and take over my classes for the day. If they're not CRB checked, I hope the tory pet papers lambast this moronic idea. But there's a CRB check and there's a CRB check. I was under the impression that you have to hold a separate CRB check for each different activity/role. When I started doing some cricket work with Colts (umpiring and coaching), I thought I would be OK as already held an enhanced CRB through school, but had to reapply for a "cricket" CRB!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 sometimes...a CRB is a waste of money and time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 But there's a CRB check and there's a CRB check. I was under the impression that you have to hold a separate CRB check for each different activity/role. When I started doing some cricket work with Colts (umpiring and coaching), I thought I would be OK as already held an enhanced CRB through school, but had to reapply for a "cricket" CRB!!!!!! Each different organisation. At one stage I taught in two different LEA's and had to have enhanced CRBs for both, which in the case of mine always raises eyebrows when they land on HRs desk. I had been asked to go and do some work at one of the new academies but they wanted my team to have a CRB just for them despite us having the LEA CRB which had been good enough before their opt out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 But there's a CRB check and there's a CRB check. I was under the impression that you have to hold a separate CRB check for each different activity/role. When I started doing some cricket work with Colts (umpiring and coaching), I thought I would be OK as already held an enhanced CRB through school, but had to reapply for a "cricket" CRB!!!!!! Yes you do, even when I moved schools, both within the same LEA, I was made to fill another one out. I'm used to it by now, the job I had at Uni required a CRB check as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Yes you do, even when I moved schools, both within the same LEA, I was made to fill another one out. I'm used to it by now, the job I had at Uni required a CRB check as well. Bloody hell, even my LEA doesn't go that far. Yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 But there's a CRB check and there's a CRB check. I was under the impression that you have to hold a separate CRB check for each different activity/role. When I started doing some cricket work with Colts (umpiring and coaching), I thought I would be OK as already held an enhanced CRB through school, but had to reapply for a "cricket" CRB!!!!!! I've got 5, one for rugby coaching, one for Cubs, one for Ambulance service and each for my sons schools. What a waste of time & money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Well dunce, if you know enough parents that are CRB checked, which is a LEGAL requirement, then they can be my guest and take over my classes for the day. If they're not CRB checked, I hope the tory pet papers lambast this moronic idea. Well Thorpe-le-brat (changing usernames is fun) that would potentially be a stumbling block. I don't know wherther emergency legislation could be passed. If two parents were in the classroom I can't see there being a problem in principle with the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Well Thorpe-le-brat (changing usernames is fun) that would potentially be a stumbling block. I don't know wherther emergency legislation could be passed. If two parents were in the classroom I can't see there being a problem in principle with the idea. Fred & Rose West??? Maxine Carr & Ian Huntley??? Gove really does just seem to be making it up as he goes along if he thinks it will be OK just to draft parents in to help out (It's a tad more complex than that Mr Gove LOL). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Fred & Rose West??? Maxine Carr & Ian Huntley??? Gove really does just seem to be making it up as he goes along if he thinks it will be OK just to draft parents in to help out (It's a tad more complex than that Mr Gove LOL). but having a CRB wont stop someone from stealing a kid..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 I've got 5, one for rugby coaching, one for Cubs, one for Ambulance service and each for my sons schools. What a waste of time & money. Bloody hell, that's nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 but having a CRB wont stop someone from stealing a kid..... The usefulness and veracity of CRB checks is a whole different argument, but you can't on one hand demand everyone to go jumping through hoops because you believe in the robustness of them, only to waive them on an ad hoc basis (as Gove is now bumbling about). (On balance I think the CRB process is worthwhile, but that's not to say it doesn't have it's limitations or faults). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 The usefulness and veracity of CRB checks is a whole different argument, but you can't on one hand demand everyone to go jumping through hoops because you believe in the robustness of them, only to waive them on an ad hoc basis (as Gove is now bumbling about). (On balance I think the CRB process is worthwhile, but that's not to say it doesn't have it's limitations or faults). yeah you can..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 yeah you can..... Then there is no point in having them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Then there is no point in having them. I know.....but extreme short term solutions to a very short term problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 yeah you can..... Of course you can, but that would make you either an idiot for suggesting they are necessary in the first place, or foolish for not requiring them on an ad hoc basis. Not believing in the veracity or usefulness of CRB checks is a point of view that I can see has a some resonance about it, but the line of needing them for everyone, except when they don't need them, is somewhat disjointed and illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 I know.....but extreme short term solutions to a very short term problem... Whilst the press will make a big song and dance about any school that stays open due to "parents" I'm willing to bet good money that any are in affluent areas. None in my LEA, as of 17.00 this evening, were taking advantage of Gove's kind offer, judging it not worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 Fred & Rose West??? Maxine Carr & Ian Huntley??? Gove really does just seem to be making it up as he goes along if he thinks it will be OK just to draft parents in to help out (It's a tad more complex than that Mr Gove LOL). What about if they are respected members of the comunity such as a vicar or priest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 What about if they are respected members of the comunity such as a vicar or priest? Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 What about if they are respected members of the comunity such as a vicar or priest? I don't think anyone is immune from needing a CRB check (maybe the Queen is) and I'm sure even vicars and priests need to be CRB checked if they come in to contact with youngsters or vulnerable adults in their parish (but of course that CRB check will not satisfy going to teach in schools). And sadly as some horrific cases have highlighted in recent years, being a respected member of the community is no guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 27 June, 2011 Share Posted 27 June, 2011 What about if they are respected members of the comunity such as a vicar or priest? Who says they are respected? A belief in a supernatural (at best) being doesn't earn respect. Hell (excuse the pun) I figured we may as well do some religion bashing on this thread as well. Obviously it's such a stupid idea and won't happen but if Gove actually gets any parents in to cover classes has he explained what they would do? My guess is not much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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