The relative age effect

[Doctoroncall]

I wonder what provisions Saints have to make sure it's the technical ability that counts and the player progress with that in mind rather than age and size.

 

An interesting read on how the FA are (finally) trying to help out.

[The9]

I read that this morning, the whole "you're tall, therefore you get in over some more talented shorter kid" thing has always hugely p155ed me off, not least of which because I was about 5ft 3 when I was aged 13 and most of the lanky donkeys in the local representative teams spent the next 10 years working their way back down to their actual level through the local non-League sides despite their sometimes Premier League academy experience.

 

January born, FWIW. .

[Alain Perrin]

I read that this morning, the whole "you're tall, therefore you get in over some more talented shorter kid" thing has always hugely p155ed me off, not least of which because I was about 5ft 3 when I was aged 13 and most of the lanky donkeys in the local representative teams spent the next 10 years working their way back down to their actual level through the local non-League sides despite their sometimes Premier League academy experience.

 

January born, FWIW. .

 

It's not us lankies fault you're a short ass, get over it. Should we not let the blacks play with the whites next because they've got denser muscle tissue?

 

The fact that people spend their time being paid to debat such matters disturbs me to be honest.

[StVince1966]

michael owen is 5 foot 3!

[The9]

It's not us lankies fault you're a short ass, get over it. Should we not let the blacks play with the whites next because they've got denser muscle tissue?

 

The fact that people spend their time being paid to debate such matters disturbs me to be honest.

 

I'm 5ft 9 now, it's just bloody ridiculous that because some meathead got pubes at 8 and could hoof a ball the length of the pitch before he got to big school that he'd get signed up by some scouting network when it would be patently obvious that by the age of 16 most other kids would be able to do what he could AND maybe show a bit of skill as well.

 

It's a difficult problem to solve though, there aren't enough kids in, say, 3 month groups to be able to isolate them so they get to compete against similarly sized kids - and there's no benefit in group kids too "alike" anyway, a variety of styles to learn about and deal with is a good thing, not a bad one. It's purely about allowing the skilful younger ones to shine alongside the physically bigger kids.

 

The stats about players born in Sep-Nov are astounding though, and similarly the first three months of the year in Europe where it's based on a calendar year not a school year

[farawaysaint]

I'm 5ft 9 now, it's just bloody ridiculous that because some meathead got pubes at 8 and could hoof a ball the length of the pitch before he got to big school that he'd get signed up by some scouting network when it would be patently obvious that by the age of 16 most other kids would be able to do what he could AND maybe show a bit of skill as well.

 

It's a difficult problem to solve though, there aren't enough kids in, say, 3 month groups to be able to isolate them so they get to compete against similarly sized kids - and there's no benefit in group kids too "alike" anyway, a variety of styles to learn about and deal with is a good thing, not a bad one. It's purely about allowing the skilful younger ones to shine alongside the physically bigger kids.

 

The stats about players born in Sep-Nov are astounding though, and similarly the first three months of the year in Europe where it's based on a calendar year not a school year

 

A problem could be if academy coaches are chosen based on results perhaps? Not many would willingly risk their jobs over kids that some day would possibly have potential but can't cut it in the here and now and will result in the team coming stone last in the academy leagues to a bunch of lumps... Just a thought.

[Itchen_block4]

I like the idea of smaller, age-appropriate pitches. It would speed up the tempo of kids games and let the good tehnical players make snap decisions. Players need to be at a certain level technically to be considered for first team places, big or not.

 

Telling a kid "you're not old enough for this pitch yet" would be a great motivator too.

[VectisSaint]

I like the idea of smaller, age-appropriate pitches. It would speed up the tempo of kids games and let the good tehnical players make snap decisions. Players need to be at a certain level technically to be considered for first team places, big or not.

 

Telling a kid "you're not old enough for this pitch yet" would be a great motivator too.

Its a nice idea, but in practice most clubs (except big city-based clubs) simply cannot provide the facilities for multi-size, multi-goal-size pitches. The FA tried to introduce 9-a-side a few years back, but most smaller clubs could not afford the investment needed in the different size goals that were also needed, besides the full-sized ones and the mini-soccer goals. Unfotunately the FA is so blinkered and out of touch it thinks all clubs are based in London (or Manchester or Liverpool) and forgets that grass-roots football also needs to include teams in more rural communities. The FA also forgets about the majority of players and only considers what is needed for academy-level players who are a very small minority. Effectively the FA are the architects of the demise of local football, together with the issues caused by 7-day a week business and the consequent lack of social time that allows team sports to flourish - try running a local football team these days, used to be possible with 16-17 committed players, these days you need about 30 to allow for everybody working weekends and so on.

[The9]

As I've not been involved in English kids' football, what are the sizes of pitch which are used for different age groups - in fact what are the different age groups ? I don't need dimensions, just estimates (eg half pitch played across, etc). I'm not talking about Academies, I just mean "normal" kids' football, assuming that still exists ?

 

The reason I've not been involved in English kids' football is because I grew up under the auspices of the FA of Wales. Until the early 90s all kids' football was on full-size pitches (albeit 40 minute matches), but they made a series of moves in kids' and youth football to ensure kids below secondary school age could only play small-sided 7-a-sides on pitches which were under half size.

 

There were also some changes to teen football, some of which were VERY ill-advised (an experimental tweak to the offside law to allow players to be onside from passes from their own half was by far the worst one, every team had a meathead on the half-way line and teams passed it back to him to launch into the box); but others were quite good - changing the U-12 / U-14 / U-16 structure to an one-year one, so you didn't spend one season thrashing "B" teams a year below you and then one season getting thrashed as you moved up an age group, and attempting to get managers onto training courses. Having said all that, this is a fairly typical example of my experience of U-14s football in the 1980s :

 

Enormous meathead U-14 hoofs ball up park as my team get thrashed by big kids.

 

Of course nowadays there's some OTT stuff too like compulsory CRB checking and Respect barriers which are an indictment of the times, but I'm just interested to hear what changes and rules there are from someone who has kids and takes them to Tyro League or whatever it is...

[The9]

try running a local football team these days, used to be possible with 16-17 committed players, these days you need about 30 to allow for everybody working weekends and so on.

 

Tell me about it, we had a Sunday afternoon side last season, because of my previous experience and refusal to play ringers we had 40-ish players registered. What happened? We got to February/March and folded due to lack of players - and we were at the top of the league winning most of our matches for most of that.

 

The killer blow was having to play double-headers for 3 successive weeks to get the fixtures completed - who in their right mind wants to slog through 180 minutes against the same opposition ? It's just bloody tedious, and was entirely down to the League's intransigence regarding fixtures - we had played more matches than anyone, and had 2 months left to complete the season, but we played one week in a quagmire (it ended 6-6 with basically every attack in the last 20 minutes ending in a goal), then had back to back games for a few weeks when there was still 2 months of the season to go. We folded with 4 matches left to play, and 2 months to do it in.

 

People had the fun sucked out of it, and then just could not be bothered.

 

So it's not just at kids' level the FA / Leagues are failing - and though I think the allowance for up to 2 players to be signed on the day is an improvement on what I was used to, I think there should be a multi-year renewable photocard player licence system to help with disciplinary issues.

[The9]

Its a nice idea, but in practice most clubs (except big city-based clubs) simply cannot provide the facilities for multi-size, multi-goal-size pitches. The FA tried to introduce 9-a-side a few years back, but most smaller clubs could not afford the investment needed in the different size goals that were also needed, besides the full-sized ones and the mini-soccer goals. Unfotunately the FA is so blinkered and out of touch it thinks all clubs are based in London (or Manchester or Liverpool) and forgets that grass-roots football also needs to include teams in more rural communities.

 

Of course the problem with THIS, is that the Football Association - the protectors of the game, the founders of the cash-drowning Premier League - think that the clubs themselves should be providing the equipment and paying huge sums to rent pitches in the first place.

 

It's insane that clubs wanting to set up in some parts of the country have to buy their own nets and put them up themselves (another disincentive to teams) - or sometimes even supply the posts. The facility isn't going anywhere, fund the facility AND the cost of running it, and make sure it's administered on match days, rather than leaving it to councils who don't care or can't afford it.

[Itchen_block4]

Its a nice idea, but in practice most clubs (except big city-based clubs) simply cannot provide the facilities for multi-size, multi-goal-size pitches. The FA tried to introduce 9-a-side a few years back, but most smaller clubs could not afford the investment needed in the different size goals that were also needed, besides the full-sized ones and the mini-soccer goals. Unfotunately the FA is so blinkered and out of touch it thinks all clubs are based in London (or Manchester or Liverpool) and forgets that grass-roots football also needs to include teams in more rural communities. The FA also forgets about the majority of players and only considers what is needed for academy-level players who are a very small minority. Effectively the FA are the architects of the demise of local football, together with the issues caused by 7-day a week business and the consequent lack of social time that allows team sports to flourish - try running a local football team these days, used to be possible with 16-17 committed players, these days you need about 30 to allow for everybody working weekends and so on.

 

Are smaller goals and moving the white lines inwards that expensive? As for working weekends, surely that isn't a new problem?

 

Something should be done to address the imbalances.

[Scummer]

Saints academy seems to churn out identikit blonde five foot nine players, so maybe we're already doing this?

[Itchen_block4]

It's not us lankies fault you're a short ass, get over it. Should we not let the blacks play with the whites next because they've got denser muscle tissue?

 

The fact that people spend their time being paid to debat such matters disturbs me to be honest.

 

Obviously not, but with that in mind, it would be interesting to look at the stats relating to ethnicity in academies.

[saint_bert]

Obviously not, but with that in mind, it would be interesting to look at the stats relating to ethnicity in academies.

 

There was something very similar conducted in France. I heard Gab Marcotti talking to a french football journo whos name escapes me on the Games podcast. This was around the time of the French quota row a few weeks back.

[The9]

Anyone currently involved in kids' and youth football who can give an overview of how the age groups and different pitch sizes break down ?

[(not THE) Kevin Moore]

Haven't read the article. But there is a good book called outliers by Malcolm gladwell and he talks about the proportion of pro ice hockey players born before Jan. All down to size. It's a good read and the prob is not limited to football

[View From The Top]

Anyone currently involved in kids' and youth football who can give an overview of how the age groups and different pitch sizes break down ?

 

My nipper plays in the Mid-Staffordshire Junior League for an U10 team.

 

At U8 (no league tabless just friendlies), U9 and U10 they play 7-a-side on (about) half sized pitches with smaller goals and fewer rules (no offside etc) and 20mins each way.

 

U11 & U12 play 9-a-side on bigger pitches, with bigger goals and more rules and by U13 they are on to 11-a-side.

[View From The Top]

Haven't read the article. But there is a good book called outliers by Malcolm gladwell and he talks about the proportion of pro ice hockey players born before Jan. All down to size. It's a good read and the prob is not limited to football

 

Yes, it's a very intersting theory and one that Corky Morris has been espousing for quite a while and the academic research tends to support it.

[Window Cleaner]

Anyone currently involved in kids' and youth football who can give an overview of how the age groups and different pitch sizes break down ?

 

Well not in the UK no, but in France kids up to U11 play across half of a normal pitch with folding goals (a bit smaller than yer regulation size goal) half way up half of the side line.

Debutants (U7) play only on stabilised pitches 7 a side, poussins U9 the same,benjamins(U11) play 9 a side mostly on stabilised pitches but sometimes on grass and then the U13 graduate to a full size pitch and 11 a side. Games are of course shorter and

I think the full 90 minutes only kicks in at about U17.

[david in sweden]

michael owen is 5 foot 3!

 

Terry Paine was only 5'7" and Marian Pahars 5'8" ... and Lionel Messi doesn't look like a giant to me either.

[Itchen_block4]

Terry Paine was only 5'7" and Marian Pahars 5'8" ... and Lionel Messi doesn't look like a giant to me either.

 

Adam Lallana is only 5'8".

[(not THE) Kevin Moore]

Yes, it's a very intersting theory and one that Corky Morris has been espousing for quite a while and the academic research tends to support it.

 

He argued that it equally applied academically as well, a kid born early in the year will be significantly more advanced than a kid born nearly a year later. And yet what do we do? in sport as well as academically? We stream according to ability at an early age where the difference is more marked.

 

His arguments about the ice-hockey players, which is surely as pertinent in football, is that they are selected early on to go into regional development squads so benefit from the best coaching and playing regularly which automatically gives them further advantages over and above just the size/age differential so the gap gets bigger and bigger.

 

It's ridiculous really but it does happen.... and no amount of naming 'short' players who have made it will make the problem disappear. Messi and Owen made it because they were SO much better than they were going to shine through despite their height, and naming a handful of short players isn't 'evidence'... evidence would be to look at the average height of pro footballers in this country.

 

Also Messi came through in Spanish football, which (judging by the height of the Barca midfield) would appear to be so much more enlightened than our 'kick and rush, stick a big guy up top and big guys at the back' approach.

[VectisSaint]

Are smaller goals and moving the white lines inwards that expensive? As for working weekends, surely that isn't a new problem?

 

Something should be done to address the imbalances.

I guess you don't remember the introduction of Sunday trading - yes that is a relatively new problem, 1994 onwards, even then it was many years before it became as prevalent as now. Sunday League football flourished in the 70s/80s, but has since almost died a death. I assume you have no idea how much the white line stuff costs, it is very expensive (£85 per 15 litres), largely because of the need on it being made of non-hazardous material, in any case how do you "move the white lines inwards"? I guess you have never had to mark out pitches. Have you tried finding out how much a new set of goal posts with nets cost these days? Other than the mini-soccer goals, the other sizes are prohibitively expensive for a small club (over a grand per pair, price almost the same for youth and adult sizes) although to be fair both the FA and the County FAs are reasonably generous with grants.

[eurosaint]

michael owen is 5 foot 3!

 

Perhaps you were taking the p1ss but just for the record he is 5'8" !

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Owen

[Itchen_block4]

I guess you don't remember the introduction of Sunday trading - yes that is a relatively new problem, 1994 onwards, even then it was many years before it became as prevalent as now. Sunday League football flourished in the 70s/80s, but has since almost died a death. I assume you have no idea how much the white line stuff costs, it is very expensive (£85 per 15 litres), largely because of the need on it being made of non-hazardous material, in any case how do you "move the white lines inwards"? I guess you have never had to mark out pitches. Have you tried finding out how much a new set of goal posts with nets cost these days? Other than the mini-soccer goals, the other sizes are prohibitively expensive for a small club (over a grand per pair, price almost the same for youth and adult sizes) although to be fair both the FA and the County FAs are reasonably generous with grants.

 

I've never had to mark out pitches or buy goals, so I'll take your word that they are expensive. I'm familiar with specialist items being deceptively expensive. I wasn't born until 92, so wouldn't have been familiar with non-trading Sundays, although my dad only worked weekdays until retiring recently.

[The9]

The weirdest problem our Sunday side had last season (40 players or not) was the daft proportion of people who couldn't, or wouldn't, drive.

 

I suspect this is an anomaly, but it might also be symptomatic of the cost of petrol spiralling - as a Southampton-based person collecting someone from Dunford for a match in Cosham or thereabouts (we were in the Meon Valley League), we were doing 90 miles a match for Sunday Division 4 football !

 

It's not necessarily a fair reflection on football to take the average height of footballers NOW, as bigger, stronger players who are as skilful as smaller peers will probably be rightly selected - but a survey of their heights when at the age of 10-15 might be more enlightening.