Palace, Norwich, Saints

[Scummer]

All got relegated together, and are now next to each other in the lower reaches of the championship.

 

It must be pretty unusual for 3 teams to get relegated and then none of them go back up in the next few seasons. Normally one or two would bounce straight back.

[Alanh]

Both Norwich and Palace were just up for the one season though so no recent (last 10 years) tradition of being established in the Prem. A more interesting comparison is Charlton who are a club of a similar size to Saints and who are also struggling this season now that they have run out of parachute money. They seem to be doing just what Saints are doing this year (and should have done last year) - sold off the big earners and brought through youth.

[Arizona]

All got relegated together, and are now next to each other in the lower reaches of the championship.

 

It must be pretty unusual for 3 teams to get relegated and then none of them go back up in the next few seasons. Normally one or two would bounce straight back.

 

The season before it was Leeds, Wolves and Leicester who went down.

[OldNick]

Saints were geared up after 27 years in the PL as a PL club. it is hard then to cut the costs back. Norwich's fanbase has held up well that is the surprise to me.

[Alain Perrin]

Saints were geared up after 27 years in the PL as a PL club. it is hard then to cut the costs back. Norwich's fanbase has held up well that is the surprise to me.

 

You can count the seconds before someone turns this thread into the usual boring rant....

 

I agree Norwich support has held up well, you could argue that Saint's support is more able to elsewhere (Pompey, Reading, even London clubs are all pretty accessible) than Norwich fans.

 

Ironically Saints doing so well for so many years without a bigger ground was a double whammy - it didn't cement the fanbase (those who came in due to SMS and have since left were comparative newcomers) and it saddled us with a debt we struggle to service now. Put simply we didn't have St Mary's for long enough in the Premiership to coin in the big money, but had the costs that came with it.

[Arizona]

Better to see new clubs get a chance in the top flight and play with a bit of positive enthusiasim like Stoke, Hull, Wigan and even Reading in recent likes, than have the same old crap going up and down like Brum, West Brom, Palace etc, who never look like staying up that long. Maybe it's because they've been there before they go up and play with so much fear, almost not enjoying it and waiting to return to their level.

 

That's why West Brom will probably finish lower than Stoke and Hull this year, despite being far far better in the CCC last season.

 

I'd tend to disagree that WBA were better than Hull. In the first half of the season, but in the second half, they were by far the best side I've seen us play in the CCC. The 5-0 scoreline at the KC didn't flatter them. We were poor, but Hull really were excellent.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by nickh

Saints were geared up after 27 years in the PL as a PL club. it is hard then to cut the costs back. Norwich's fanbase has held up well that is the surprise to me.

You can count the seconds before someone turns this thread into the usual boring rant....

 

I agree Norwich support has held up well, you could argue that Saint's support is more able to elsewhere (Pompey, Reading, even London clubs are all pretty accessible) than Norwich fans.

 

Ironically Saints doing so well for so many years without a bigger ground was a double whammy - it didn't cement the fanbase (those who came in due to SMS and have since left were comparative newcomers) and it saddled us with a debt we struggle to service now. Put simply we didn't have St Mary's for long enough in the Premiership to coin in the big money, but had the costs that came with it.

 

Look at all the extra revenue we gained from St Mary's and taking everything into account (sale of the Dell, extra revenue, sponsorship, etc), it paid for itself. The fact we used a lot of that money on players and wages is another point, maybe one that helped maintain that Premier position? Now without a doubt it is a millstone around our necks.

 

Our basic problem was that we did not address our costs a lot quicker. We had the cull of the Premier players under Burley and then just nonchalantly reintroduced most of them.

[saints_is_the_south]

A more interesting comparison is Charlton who are a club of a similar size to Saints and who are also struggling this season now that they have run out of parachute money.

 

This is Charlton's 2nd season down no? They would have got a parachute payment this season too. Pardew is a sh!te manager IMO so i'm not surprised they aren't doing well tbh.

[Alain Perrin]

Look at all the extra revenue we gained from St Mary's and taking everything into account (sale of the Dell, extra revenue, sponsorship, etc), it paid for itself. The fact we used a lot of that money on players and wages is another point, maybe one that helped maintain that Premier position? Now without a doubt it is a millstone around our necks.

 

Our basic problem was that we did not address our costs a lot quicker. We had the cull of the Premier players under Burley and then just nonchalantly reintroduced most of them.

 

Disagree that it paid for itself. The stadium cost £32m and in the best case in the four years it raised £10m of additional ticket revenue before any running costs are considered. You rightly say though that wages went up massively in that period, doubtless that ate a lot of the extra cash.

 

It's like moving house though, you've got to do it some time - just occasionally redundancy and a credit crunch catch you out.

[Jimmy Gabriel's Halo]

Saints were geared up after 27 years in the PL as a PL club. it is hard then to cut the costs back. Norwich's fanbase has held up well that is the surprise to me.

 

Not really, when you consider there's b*gger-all alse to do in Norfolk apart from sheep and baiting the Tractor Boys.

[saint1977]

Saints were geared up after 27 years in the PL as a PL club. it is hard then to cut the costs back. Norwich's fanbase has held up well that is the surprise to me.

 

Good point and it's all the bits off of the pitch as well. SCW put in place a structure that was aimed at working with the cream of Europe's young players rather than PL cast-offs and the odd gem like Bale. It would have been wonderful if we'd stayed in the PL and probably very successful but in hindsight, which is always wonderful, perhaps SCW could have scaled his plans down a bit and that's not being critical of SCW. Now, we can probably barely afford the electricity to light and the heat the buildings! Plus our other overheads would have been higher after 13 years of SKY PL money. PL clubs are such highly geared organisations now that the turbulence of relegation, particularly when not experienced in a generation as with us, is devastating. Charlton spent two season's worth of transfer budget in their last PL season so if you think we're in trouble, watch events at the Valley unless they get a lucky takeover. I also know that they paid a kid from Crewe, Luke Varney, £23k per week and that came from another club he was in talks with (not SFC). Imagine what their players from the PL era still there are on...

 

Also, the £7m gamble by Wilde et al didn't come off either, hence the current plight. That said, Palace kept Johnson and the better players and still came unstuck in the play-offs V Watford. As for Norwich, their fanbase was unified by being hours from administration until a lifelong fan (not a Lifelong Saint...) came to their rescue - Geoffrey Watling. Robert Chase, their former Chairman, if you think Guy Askham was of the worst men in football (and I did and still do), this guy was a really bad egg in comparison! He still had his loyal followers before the truth on Chase's actions emerged but Norwich fans ran a really protacted campaign to get him out otherwise he really would have killed that club.

[um pahars]

Look at all the extra revenue we gained from St Mary's and taking everything into account (sale of the Dell, extra revenue, sponsorship, etc), it paid for itself.

 

If it paid for itself, then why did Lowe arrange a 25 year agreement to borrow the money then????:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

We still owe in excess of £22m on the loan notes taken out to fund the building of St Mary's, so it quite clearly has not paid for itself.

 

Once again you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Our basic problem was that we did not address our costs a lot quicker. We had the cull of the Premier players under Burley and then just nonchalantly reintroduced most of them.

 

Our wage bill in the Premiership - £23.2m

 

Our wage bill in the only full year under Burley - £10.5m

 

Tahat's hardly reintroducing most of them now is it?:rolleyes:

[lordswoodsaints]

tbh we had more to lose than the other 2,and it was more of a shock to the system than it is for them as well.

[Bad Wolf]

Thats the otder they were relegated in wasn't it?

[Saints foreva]

Thats the otder they were relegated in wasn't it?

 

Yeah I think it is, same places too.

 

18th..

19th..

20th..

[the saints god]

Norwich were a very lucky team to be in the premiership then and palace were a two man team johnson and kiraly both left. We are still unexplainable to how we went down into the championship but we will have a reason for going down to league 1, if we do.

[SFC Forever]

TSG if we don't get enough points we go down, but we will and then we won't.

[LaptopSaint]

I'd tend to disagree that WBA were better than Hull. In the first half of the season, but in the second half, they were by far the best side I've seen us play in the CCC. The 5-0 scoreline at the KC didn't flatter them. We were poor, but Hull really were excellent.

 

On the other hand when we beat them 4-0 at SMS I thought Hull were truly shocking - the least skillful side I'd seen for ages. Hull have a manager with what looks like the Midas touch, but the Baggies were head and shoulders the best team in the CCC last year.

Might be the best team in the CCC next year too -- but hopefully second best

[Rebel]

with a full St Mary's and the FA cup run in 2003 Saints were the 7th biggest English club on revenue and the 10th on attendance - or something like that

 

I'm sure Steve Grant will have the exact figures somewhere

 

St Mary's was a good move for us - the board at the time failed to spend the extra money it generated properly

 

it went on a squad of nearly 40 journeymen players, 10 years of dividends and bonus payments (we had the highest paid chairman and CEO in the league at one point) and a lot of money paid out in expenses and to other companies for various things

 

now all probably legal - but I bet a fair bit of that money ended up in a small group of peoples bank accounts through various routes

 

Our turnover was £52 million at one point and our player wage bill less than £25 million. Surely a lot of that extra cash could have been used to massively reduce the mortgage on the stadium

 

crowd numbers have gone down because of poor performance on the pitch, a false messiah in Wilde, the standard of the opposition, the crapness of Burley, the blind management of Hone, Hoos and Oldknow and return of Lowe - not too mention the mainaining of ticket prices at a level that's far too high

 

ticket prices at St Mary's are symptomatic of football though - its all about money - and its all for the players

 

nearly all football players earn too much - a journeyman player cam earn £20K+ a week in the premiership whereas the average wage in the CCC is £3K a week (still over £150K a year) -still far too much for clubs without TV money

 

we simply can't afford to lower prices - tickets should be £15 a game - if we did price tickets at that level we'd get nearer 25,000 a week easy

 

two adults and two kids - a family ticket - for £40 is about right -but right now its the best past of £100

 

I can't afford that!

 

People are falling out of love with football for a lot of reasons - the big 4 monopoly - the foreign owners, the overkill on TV, the celebrity players and their WAGS, the England Team - and Saints are seeing that in their gates!

 

the gap between the PL and the CCC is so big the parachute payments don't come anywhere near bridging it!

 

Charlton have too many bad players - who because they are overpaid they simply can't get rid off - and if they do go bust it will be those players wages that take precdence over any other debts!

[up and away]

Originally Posted by up and away

Look at all the extra revenue we gained from St Mary's and taking everything into account (sale of the Dell, extra revenue, sponsorship, etc), it paid for itself.

If it paid for itself, then why did Lowe arrange a 25 year agreement to borrow the money then????:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

We still owe in excess of £22m on the loan notes taken out to fund the building of St Mary's, so it quite clearly has not paid for itself.

 

Once again you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by up and away

Look at all the extra revenue we gained from St Mary's and taking everything into account (sale of the Dell, extra revenue, sponsorship, etc), it paid for itself. The fact we used a lot of that money on players and wages is another point, maybe one that helped maintain that Premier position? Now without a doubt it is a millstone around our necks.

Over the 4 years in the Premier we were able to double the crowds at St Mary’s, resulting in far greater income. Assuming an increased gate of 15,500 at £25 extra per person gives us 15,500 x 4 x 19 x £25 = £29.45M

Stadium sponsorship gave an extra £1.2M

The profit on the Dell was estimated originally at £5M, but we had a windfall total there rising to £7M

For the CCC years lets just add one year at an extra 10,000, giving 10,000 x £25 x 23 = £5.75M

 

This gives you a grand total of £43.4M, without taking into account the extra revenue the fans spend at St Mary’s, the profits from concerts, functions, cup games, friendlies, etc which will easily be in millions.

Take away £12.5M in interest charges over this period, which would easily be far less if we ploughed all extra revenue into repaying the loan notes.

So all of a sudden it is not difficult to see the stadium paying for itself, the fact we did not use the monies in this manner is a separate issue.

 

 

So according to the Lord of the Muppets, because we still owe £22M on the stadium means we could only have made £10M from the move to St Mary's.

[CylonKing]

two adults and two kids - a family ticket - for £40 is about right -but right now its the best past of £100

People are falling out of love with football for a lot of reasons - the big 4 monopoly - the foreign owners, the overkill on TV, the celebrity players and their WAGS, the England Team - and Saints are seeing that in their gates!

The gap between the PL and the CCC is so big the parachute payments don't come anywhere near bridging it!

 

Some excellent points there.

I don't give a stuff about Internationals and especially England teams.

I find it incredibly funny when England lose to someone and am pleased it has happened.

Not because I don't love my country but because I cannot relate to the bunch of 'footballers' representing the nation.

 

Football, like most things in this country are far too expensive. How can it cost almost £100 to get to Bristol from Nottingham return oin the trains, yet only £20 for 2 people to get to Barcelona on a plane. Some areas of society are so far out of sync with reality it is still unbelievable.

[Chez]

The season before it was Leeds, Wolves and Leicester who went down.

 

 

now that is revealing.

[Chez]

it didn't cement the fanbase (those who came in due to SMS and have since left were comparative newcomers)

 

that's an interesting opinion. I wonder if that is true. Personally I didn't have a ST in the seasons running up to us leaving the Dell, but got one again when we moved to SMS and I still have it now.