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Watched Rise of the Foot soldier again today. Cracking film. Also read the book "Muscle".

Those who dont know, it is really about the Rettenden Murders in 1995. 2 lunatics (and their lacky) from essex got done and to this day, those sent down protest their innocence.

 

Anyone else follow/into this sort of stuff

 

 

also, quite odd how these incredible mental people hold some sort of celebrity status at times

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Yes, I find all of it very interesting and have looked into this quite a bit over the years. Essex boys is also worth a watch and there was a good documentary on sky about it about 6 months ago.

 

Th thing that stuck me about the killings was the professional nature, clearly a proper hit man, all killed instantly, Rolfe, the driver, didn't even have time to take his hands off the driving wheel. There was no forensic evidence left and they were convicted pet much solely on the evidence of a super grass who was facing charges for dealing Weed and constantly changed his Story.

I really have felt for a long time that this might well have been a job done by British intelligence. The police at this time were under pressure, E's were massive, rife in night clubs, not mention raves. Leah Betts had died in the area from taking E and her funeral was only a week before these three, who were major players in the drug scene in Essex at the times, were taken out. The circumstances around it, the conviction of two other gangsters with at best, flimsy evidence and clinical nature of the hit make me think it was an intelligence job.

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Yes, I find all of it very interesting and have looked into this quite a bit over the years. Essex boys is also worth a watch and there was a good documentary on sky about it about 6 months ago.

 

Th thing that stuck me about the killings was the professional nature, clearly a proper hit man, all killed instantly, Rolfe, the driver, didn't even have time to take his hands off the driving wheel. There was no forensic evidence left and they were convicted pet much solely on the evidence of a super grass who was facing charges for dealing Weed and constantly changed his Story.

I really have felt for a long time that this might well have been a job done by British intelligence. The police at this time were under pressure, E's were massive, rife in night clubs, not mention raves. Leah Betts had died in the area from taking E and her funeral was only a week before these three, who were major players in the drug scene in Essex at the times, were taken out. The circumstances around it, the conviction of two other gangsters with at best, flimsy evidence and clinical nature of the hit make me think it was an intelligence job.

 

I think I must have watched at least 4 (maybe 5 now) films on exactly the same subject in recent years. Each with a different perspective, but each coming to same conclusion that the driver (forgotten his name, it wasn't Rolfe I don't think, he was the one trying to get in on it, but was a bit inept) was full of sh*t and not to be trusted.

 

But your opinion isn't a bad one - could well be the case and why no one really knows what happened; apart from the super grass who got paid off and (presumably) given a new life elsewhere in the end.

 

In terms of the films I've seen, all are good, but Rise of the Footsoldier is by far the best as it's the most polished with the best 'story' as it doesn't just centre around the shootings. Plus it's the only one I've watched over and over.

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I think I must have watched at least 4 (maybe 5 now) films on exactly the same subject in recent years. Each with a different perspective, but each coming to same conclusion that the driver (forgotten his name, it wasn't Rolfe I don't think, he was the one trying to get in on it, but was a bit inept) was full of sh*t and not to be trusted.

 

But your opinion isn't a bad one - could well be the case and why no one really knows what happened; apart from the super grass who got paid off and (presumably) given a new life elsewhere in the end.

 

In terms of the films I've seen, all are good, but Rise of the Footsoldier is by far the best as it's the most polished with the best 'story' as it doesn't just centre around the shootings. Plus it's the only one I've watched over and over.

 

Nicholls was the get away driver and the super grass, but someone else has since also claimed to have been the get away driver, but they have disappeared off the face of the earth and Nicholls got off with his offences and was given a new identity Rolfe was the driver of range rover and killed. He seems to be just a kid who got mixed up in those circles and got used a bit by the other two. Another thing that doesn't stack up is that during trial one of the defence witnesses claimed one of the defendants couldn't shoot and actually had a fear of guns after an accident when he was younger, however all three were clinically killed, shot in the head within seconds, definitely the work of a hit man and someone who had vast experience with guns. I've read loads on this, I really don't think the guys convicted did it, but the only people who will know for definite are the ones who did it or dead.

Edited by Turkish
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Things I have read was the main two had pished off those in canning town too much and this was the price

 

Also, the Leah betts angle is another.

 

The autopsy pics on the nets are horrible, mind

 

Dunno, they had a few enemies. What better way to take out 5 main players in the Essex drug scene, 3 dead and two lifed off after being framed for their murder, the week after Leah Betts funeral when public anger was running high against E dealers so should there be any suspicion or leaks everyone would say they deserved it anyway. And Leah Betts dad was a former policeman.

Edited by Turkish
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Yes, I find all of it very interesting and have looked into this quite a bit over the years. Essex boys is also worth a watch and there was a good documentary on sky about it about 6 months ago.

 

Th thing that stuck me about the killings was the professional nature, clearly a proper hit man, all killed instantly, Rolfe, the driver, didn't even have time to take his hands off the driving wheel. There was no forensic evidence left and they were convicted pet much solely on the evidence of a super grass who was facing charges for dealing Weed and constantly changed his Story.

I really have felt for a long time that this might well have been a job done by British intelligence. The police at this time were under pressure, E's were massive, rife in night clubs, not mention raves. Leah Betts had died in the area from taking E and her funeral was only a week before these three, who were major players in the drug scene in Essex at the times, were taken out. The circumstances around it, the conviction of two other gangsters with at best, flimsy evidence and clinical nature of the hit make me think it was an intelligence job.

 

Oh christ. Is that you Pap?

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I blame Body and Doyle and their boss....Verbal:rolleyes:

 

Soreeee...Bodie..

 

and the real Verbal was Cowley from MFI:p

 

In reality...two different firms who had some interaction..

 

Turf war and falling out of certain main players...

 

Which individuals were working for the Old Bill and themselves..

 

Eliminate your opposition..get revenge and hope you prosper...although it did not quite work out that way.:)

Edited by ottery st mary
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What public anger towards e dealers?!?! You've made that up.... Apart from the usual sun headlines no one gave a ****.....

 

Think back to 1995 and the time Leah Betts died and the moral panic that followed. There was a public outcry about e's at the time.

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Moving on, has anyone read 'Powder Wars'? The story of one guy's involvement in the Liverpool underworld/gangs/rackets in the 60s and 70s, a rollicking tale of unmitigated violence and criminality. The plot turns in the 80's when our hero's son becomes addicted to heroin and he decides to take on the big drug barons, goes over to the customs' side and infiltrates two big firms and lives as a super grass. There's a nasty twist at the end when one of the drug barons gets involved in some funny stuff with then Home Secretary Michael Howard and basically cons his way out of jail.

 

The book makes out this was a big thing at the time and it was pushed hard in parliament by Peter Kilfoyle (Liverpool MP) though I don't remember hearing much about it the time, looks like Howard's leaning on the press was pretty effective?

 

The book is ten years old now and I only picked it up by chance but well worth a look if you get the chance it fairly flies off the page. I'm sure Pap can fill in the blanks;)!

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Moving on, has anyone read 'Powder Wars'? The story of one guy's involvement in the Liverpool underworld/gangs/rackets in the 60s and 70s, a rollicking tale of unmitigated violence and criminality. The plot turns in the 80's when our hero's son becomes addicted to heroin and he decides to take on the big drug barons, goes over to the customs' side and infiltrates two big firms and lives as a super grass. There's a nasty twist at the end when one of the drug barons gets involved in some funny stuff with then Home Secretary Michael Howard and basically cons his way out of jail.

 

The book makes out this was a big thing at the time and it was pushed hard in parliament by Peter Kilfoyle (Liverpool MP) though I don't remember hearing much about it the time, looks like Howard's leaning on the press was pretty effective?

 

The book is ten years old now and I only picked it up by chance but well worth a look if you get the chance it fairly flies off the page. I'm sure Pap can fill in the blanks;)!

 

I've been reading this thread with some interest. I know some people in Southampton that like to think they're a bit of a wrong'un. There's a lot of fascination with Curtis Warren, both here and further afield. Personally, I've not really had too much involvement with the underworld up here. I know a few people, but it really is only a few. I know loads more Southampton nippers with (ahem) more varied careers.

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Personally, I've not really had too much involvement with the underworld up here.

 

*Highlighted for entertainment value*

 

(In other words, please excuse me while I laugh my head off.)

Have to say that line made me chuckle, glad Pap cleared that up for future reference.
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I've been reading this thread with some interest. I know some people in Southampton that like to think they're a bit of a wrong'un. There's a lot of fascination with Curtis Warren, both here and further afield. Personally, I've not really had too much involvement with the underworld up here. I know a few people, but it really is only a few. I know loads more Southampton nippers with (ahem) more varied careers.

 

Isn't Steven French meant to be the main man on your patch pappy?

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*Highlighted for entertainment value*

 

(In other words, please excuse me while I laugh my head off.)

 

Have to say that line made me chuckle, glad Pap cleared that up for future reference.

 

I'm glad you're amused, gentlemen. Only really funny when quoted out of context though, eh?

 

Or if you're me :)

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I'm glad you're amused, gentlemen. Only really funny when quoted out of context though, eh?

 

Or if you're me :)

 

 

Happy new year the papster..:)

 

You is still the main man:D

 

After me that is:smug:

 

Wait til I get started on the underworld down here in Devon.......3 sheep stolen last week:lol:

 

and a mobility scooter:)

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Isn't Steven French meant to be the main man on your patch pappy?

 

Interesting character. Old school; would have a lot in common with Vito Corleone on the issue of drugs. Not a fan, apparently.

 

I live very close to a pub called The Oaks, renamed after the leader of the Crocky Crew was shot there. It was his death, and the escalation that followed, that led to the death of Rhys Jones. It's on one of those Ross Kemp gang's shows. I think you can actually see my gaff in the background.

 

The only other thing that has been "close" was this murder (the one involving Terry Regan).

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/aigburth-pub-murder-victim-bahman-3350745

 

I know his missus (and all her sisters), although ms pap knows them more. I feel sorriest for the kid, really. Non-taxpayers know that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Kids don't really have a say in what their parents get up to.

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Interesting character. Old school; would have a lot in common with Vito Corleone on the issue of drugs. Not a fan, apparently.

 

I live very close to a pub called The Oaks, renamed after the leader of the Crocky Crew was shot there. It was his death, and the escalation that followed, that led to the death of Rhys Jones. It's on one of those Ross Kemp gang's shows. I think you can actually see my gaff in the background.

 

The only other thing that has been "close" was this murder (the one involving Terry Regan).

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/aigburth-pub-murder-victim-bahman-3350745

 

I know his missus (and all her sisters), although ms pap knows them more. I feel sorriest for the kid, really. Non-taxpayers know that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Kids don't really have a say in what their parents get up to.

 

Surely His was the perfect crime? Steal drug dealers money and batter them if they put up a fight. They aren't going to report it and youre considered something of a Robin Hood figure the only difference being you give to yourself.

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Surely His was the perfect crime? Steal drug dealers money and batter them if they put up a fight. They aren't going to report it and youre considered something of a Robin Hood figure the only difference being you give to yourself.

 

Perfect in terms of it not being detected by the OB, defo. I expect he has to take a few extra precautions when out and about though.

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Happy new year the papster..:)

 

You is still the main man:D

 

After me that is:smug:

 

Wait til I get started on the underworld down here in Devon.......3 sheep stolen last week:lol:

 

and a mobility scooter:)

 

Wotcha, ottery.

 

I'd wish you a happy new year yourself, but frankly, I'm appalled at the lack of progress you've made on the rustling front. When you were made capo for the Devon area, I made my decision on the understanding that there would be sheep, and plenty of them. Three is a shocking return for my investment, and between me and you, our man in Shropshire is f**king leathering you on the sheep acquisition front.

 

I've got people all over the country actually working, mate. The boys in Worthing turned over three tea shops last week, in addition to four sheep. In fact, the only person delivering less sheep than you is our man in Merthyr, who intermittently has sheep, but inexplicably ruins all the stock. This has never been explained to my satisfaction.

 

Gotta ask. What the f**k have you been doing? :)

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Wotcha, ottery.

 

I'd wish you a happy new year yourself, but frankly, I'm appalled at the lack of progress you've made on the rustling front. When you were made capo for the Devon area, I made my decision on the understanding that there would be sheep, and plenty of them. Three is a shocking return for my investment, and between me and you, our man in Shropshire is f**king leathering you on the sheep acquisition front.

 

I've got people all over the country actually working, mate. The boys in Worthing turned over three tea shops last week, in addition to four sheep. In fact, the only person delivering less sheep than you is our man in Merthyr, who intermittently has sheep, but inexplicably ruins all the stock. This has never been explained to my satisfaction.

 

Gotta ask. What the f**k have you been doing? :)

 

I have been down the road.. undercover/protection ......in The MAN IN THE MOON boozer as you directed..boss:)

 

As you suspected...not one USA spaceman to be seen anywhere.....:rolleyes:

 

and definitely none of those Chinese mobility craft...those things with the funny wheels..:o

Edited by ottery st mary
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Wotcha, ottery.

 

I'd wish you a happy new year yourself, but frankly, I'm appalled at the lack of progress you've made on the rustling front. When you were made capo for the Devon area, I made my decision on the understanding that there would be sheep, and plenty of them. Three is a shocking return for my investment, and between me and you, our man in Shropshire is f**king leathering you on the sheep acquisition front.

 

I've got people all over the country actually working, mate. The boys in Worthing turned over three tea shops last week, in addition to four sheep. In fact, the only person delivering less sheep than you is our man in Merthyr, who intermittently has sheep, but inexplicably ruins all the stock. This has never been explained to my satisfaction.

 

Gotta ask. What the f**k have you been doing? :)

 

 

As for the SHEEP........YOU did say that you wanted me to nick three really good looking sheep for your personal requirements:blush:

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I have been down the road.. undercover/protection ......in The MAN IN THE MOON boozer as you directed..boss:)

 

As you suspected...not one USA spaceman to be seen anywhere.....:rolleyes:

 

and definitely none of those Chinese mobility craft...those things with the funny wheels..:o

 

As for the SHEEP........YOU did say that you wanted me to nick three really good looking sheep for your personal requirements:blush:

 

On reflection, this is exemplary work. I particularly appreciate the update on the moon situation. I take it there has been no resolution on the cheese composition question?

 

The sheep I've dealt with so far have been unattractive specimens, so I retract my previous concerns in light of your unyielding search for woolly quality. It remains a worthy aim.

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Interesting character. Old school; would have a lot in common with Vito Corleone on the issue of drugs. Not a fan, apparently.

 

I live very close to a pub called The Oaks, renamed after the leader of the Crocky Crew was shot there. It was his death, and the escalation that followed, that led to the death of Rhys Jones. It's on one of those Ross Kemp gang's shows. I think you can actually see my gaff in the background.

 

The only other thing that has been "close" was this murder (the one involving Terry Regan).

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/aigburth-pub-murder-victim-bahman-3350745

 

I know his missus (and all her sisters), although ms pap knows them more. I feel sorriest for the kid, really. Non-taxpayers know that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Kids don't really have a say in what their parents get up to.

 

Norris Green or Croxteth Pap? With the money you paid on your tax last year (£60,000 was it?) you could buy a house cash there, you are lying on one part at least lad.

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I've been reading this thread with some interest. I know some people in Southampton that like to think they're a bit of a wrong'un. There's a lot of fascination with Curtis Warren, both here and further afield. Personally, I've not really had too much involvement with the underworld up here. I know a few people, but it really is only a few. I know loads more Southampton nippers with (ahem) more varied careers.

 

 

Pap, the forum gangster ha ha, this is comedy gold, how do you do people Pap, witchcraft them to death?

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