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F'Quenelle

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pap

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Despite netting two goals this weekend, the main story that emerged around Nicolas Anelka was his use of the quenelle, a gesture that some have claimed is anti-semitic.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/29/nicolas-anelka-10-match-ban-quenelle-gesture

 

Anelka is unrepentant, refusing to apologise for the gesture, insisting it was a both an anti-establishment gesture and a dedication to his friend Dieudonne M'bala M'bala, the French Cameroon comic responsible for coining the term's new meaning. Depending on which newspaper reports you read, it's either anti-establishment, anti-semitic, anti-Zionist or all of the above. Anelka could face a five match ban.

 

Prior to this weekend, I'd never heard of it at all ( although I understand Sakho and Nasri have made the same gesture ), but apparently it has been a viral thing in France for some time.

 

What are our thoughts on Anelka and the quenelle? Particularly interested in the opinions of those actually in France, who'll perhaps better understand the context.

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pap

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If he meant it in the way he said he did, who are we to say otherwise? "No no, don't care what you say, this meant something else years back and that's all it could ever mean".

Gestures and sayings/words change meaning over time.

 

Interesting question. As I said in the opening post, I've never even heard of it before, which suggests that it isn't an enduring symbol of anti-semitism. Reverse Nazi salute. What's that all about?

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Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

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Despite netting two goals this weekend, the main story that emerged around Nicolas Anelka was his use of the quenelle, a gesture that some have claimed is anti-semitic.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/29/nicolas-anelka-10-match-ban-quenelle-gesture

 

Anelka is unrepentant, refusing to apologise for the gesture, insisting it was a both an anti-establishment gesture and a dedication to his friend Dieudonne M'bala M'bala, the French Cameroon comic responsible for coining the term's new meaning. Depending on which newspaper reports you read, it's either anti-establishment, anti-semitic, anti-Zionist or all of the above. Anelka could face a five match ban.

 

Prior to this weekend, I'd never heard of it at all ( although I understand Sakho and Nasri have made the same gesture ), but apparently it has been a viral thing in France for some time.

 

What are our thoughts on Anelka and the quenelle? Particularly interested in the opinions of those actually in France, who'll perhaps better understand the context.

 

 

The government here are trying to ban Dieudonné's shows, he's already been convicted of anti-semitism and incitation of racial hatred recently. The blacks love him, other people not so much. There is now a government enquiry into him. France is a powder keg, those of you outside it just cannot imagine how it is, rampant unemployment, merciless taxation to pay for benefits for people who've contributed nothing and never will, a totally useless president and the National Front running at nearly 30% for March's local elections with their lady leader in first place for the next presidential election if it were to happen tomorrow. Anelka knew what he was doing, the match was televised on Canal+ Sport (not a big audience) but every goal is shown all day every day on various channels so he knew his gesture would get noticed.

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Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

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He is a good mate, I know my good mates beliefs and what they stand for, therefore I would have to say he knew what he was doing.

Never liked him as an individual or a player, this just cements that opinion for me.

 

 

But he probably thought the gesture would mean nothing to the English and he'd get away with it footballing wise. The gesture was aimed at the French Government who as I say are considering banning Dieudonné from appearing in public. Anelka is much hated personality here for his part in the Knysna episode, the only one to have been banned from the French side permanently for it.

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

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Whatever you do it'll be offensive to somebody. You can always find 'some people'. I've never heard of it either but I'm offended that somebody finds it offensive. He's old enough and experienced enough to know that whatever you do, somebody's going to complain.

 

Nonsense.

 

Who would he have offended if he celebrated with a MC windmill, or an Alan Shearer , or indeed celebrated as he had done for the other 5 English clubs he played for?

 

It was an anti Semitic gesture, but he lacks the balls to come out and say so and hides behind weasel words and explanations.

 

On a wider point , I've always found this holocaust denial law in some European countries complete nonsense. Why not allow people to deny it ever happened? 99% of the public would think you're a complete and utter idiot if you did. Open up the deniers claims to scrutiny and they'll end up losing all credibility with normal people.

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chocco boxo

chocco boxo

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If Channon was plying his trade now, there would probably be people saying he was in favour of the wind turbines that are blotting our landscape! after he scores one at the northam end and wheels away in classic windmill celebration.

Channon and Anelka what a difference in person, personality and footballer, oh for the old days!

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tpbury

tpbury

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On first read, I thought it was the classic 'FU' gesture which involves slamming the one fist into the other elbow and springing up the finger from the opposite hand. This takes a bit more premeditation. Like others, I've never heard or seen of it before. I do confess, I have no idea what Hitler's stance on Islam was. Anyone know? It could be argued that fascism and extreme Islam are similar? I'm sure it's been cooked over on this board, but probably in intelektual stuff as well.

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Verbal

Verbal

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On first read, I thought it was the classic 'FU' gesture which involves slamming the one fist into the other elbow and springing up the finger from the opposite hand. This takes a bit more premeditation. Like others, I've never heard or seen of it before. I do confess, I have no idea what Hitler's stance on Islam was. Anyone know? It could be argued that fascism and extreme Islam are similar? I'm sure it's been cooked over on this board, but probably in intelektual stuff as well.

 

Hitler was rather taken with the Palestinian leading cleric of the time, Haj Amin Al-Husseini. After several fawning attempts by Al-Husseini to elicit Hitler's in wiping out Jews in Palestine, a record of their last conversation states:

 

Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine....Germany would furnish positive and practical aid to the Arabs involved in the same struggle....Germany's objective [is]...solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere....In that hour the Mufti would be the most authoritative spokesman for the Arab world. The Mufti thanked Hitler profusely.

 

Husseini was a depressing fanatic - all the more depressing for his assistance in recruiting Muslims to the Waffen-SS. He knew specifically about the Final Solution by 1943 at the latest, and was a flag-waver for it, saying:

 

It is the duty of Muhammadans in general and Arabs in particular to … drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries….Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world.

 

In the Ottoman Empire, Jews had established themselves in refuge from the pogroms in a much more virulently anti-Semitic Europe. Relatively speaking, the Empire was something of a haven of tolerance. Husseini's views represented something of a sea-change, and the vicious Jew-hating found among many of today's Islamist fanatics has its roots in Husseini's rhetoric and actions.

 

So yes, there's an ideological antecedence in the kind of Islamo-fascisim advocated by Anelka's friend and Hitler's hatred of Jews.

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tpbury

tpbury

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I do respect your knowledge of muslims in England, even though many dont, so it seems on here.

 

When I web searched, I got a load of 'Islamist' sites advocating the relationship between islam and fascism, but I could only glean some elements of your post - search results were difficult to filter.

 

It seems strange that Islam as a notion was slightly off the radar when WWII was being fought, just as much as Sudan is now, whilst we fight the war agasint terrorism. I grew up watching 'The Longest Day' and 'The Bridge over the river Kwai' et al. They were probably even-ish handed films, but I essentially had the view - 'I hope the Brits win'. I'd be really interested to know if anyone is aware of accessible films from the other side of the fence. (Clint Eastwood's Iwo Jima films are prime examples). Maybe Islam states were too busy having intra mural wars in the 50s/60s and it's only recently that they've started to kick western butt to attention (80's?)

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shurlock

shurlock

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Nothing to do with Islam -Dieudonné and his 'intellectual' followers (e.g. Alain Soral) are more a throwback to the 60s (as practiced in continental Europe, not the hippy Anglo-American kind) with a bit of Chuck D thrown in.

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pap

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Nothing to do with Islam -Dieudonné and his 'intellectual' followers (e.g. Alain Soral) are more a throwback to the 60s (as practiced in continental Europe, not the hippy Anglo-American kind) with a bit of Chuck D thrown in.

 

I read today that Alain Soral founded an organisation called Egalité et Réconciliation, which apparently has the broad aim of fusing left wing labour practices with right-wing morality. Was a Communist and now flirts with the far-right. This is all fair game in French politics, apparently. Looks like the Weimar Republic compared to our setup.

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Window Cleaner

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In a different context no-one would have even noticed, trouble is Dieudonné has been larging it up of late and has been convicted of antisemitism and incitement of racial hatred numerous times. Now with our new nec plus ultra justice minister nobody goes to jail, a bit of a fine and a slap on the wrist and you're free to do whatever it was you did all over again.

 

As I said France is in desperate trouble with the weak government and they try to make examples of silly things so they're trying to ban Dieudonné, if they want to ban him just put the fokker in prison, they'd have ample cause, he's been done time and time again for the same offence, but as no-one actually goes to prison for anything as I said, he'll just keep on doing it.

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Interesting thread and until the media pounced on this I would not have known it was anti Semitic . I need to become more educated on certain hand signals and gestures . Let alone F'Quenelle

 

 

not F'Quenelle that's just a play on words, simply quenelle. Don't bother educating youself on Dieudonné though, it's 10 minutes of your life you'll not get back.

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shurlock

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In a different context no-one would have even noticed, trouble is Dieudonné has been larging it up of late and has been convicted of antisemitism and incitement of racial hatred numerous times. Now with our new nec plus ultra justice minister nobody goes to jail, a bit of a fine and a slap on the wrist and you're free to do whatever it was you did all over again.

 

As I said France is in desperate trouble with the weak government and they try to make examples of silly things so they're trying to ban Dieudonné, if they want to ban him just put the fokker in prison, they'd have ample cause, he's been done time and time again for the same offence, but as no-one actually goes to prison for anything as I said, he'll just keep on doing it.

 

 

The French state is the proverbial hammer and every problem it sees is a nail. Has been and always will be woeful at dealing with sh*t-stirrers.

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Window Cleaner

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The French state is the proverbial hammer and every problem it sees is a nail. Has been and always will be woeful at dealing with sh*t-stirrers.

 

 

you obviously haven't kept yourself informed on the Taubira revolution, we're all naughty children now but spanking is no longer allowed so when you're really naughty they just give you half a crown, a big tub of Ben and Jerry's and tell you not to do it again otherwise they'll have to send you on holiday to a 5 star resort in the Bahamas.

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Barry Sanchez

Barry Sanchez

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I believe I stated about the extreme left on here for ages, the naive members who know nothing of politics should see that left and right have never been mutually exclusive. The guy Anelka did this for has a record of anti semetic behaviour going back to 95. Probably an angry recent immigrant taking his fury out at the jews, nothing new and so backward and naive its unbelievable, what next Anelka out with a Hollywood conspiracy? Where is that font of copy and pasting Pap?

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shurlock

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you obviously haven't kept yourself informed on the Taubira revolution, we're all naughty children now but spanking is no longer allowed so when you're really naughty they just give you half a crown, a big tub of Ben and Jerry's and tell you not to do it again otherwise they'll have to send you on holiday to a 5 star resort in the Bahamas.

 

Sounds marginally better than the martinet.

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Window Cleaner

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How is France with the new leader and the, tax everything that moves policy?

Ade it better or worse?

 

 

well worse of course, the last one wasn't great but this one is just his court jester. You only have to look at his recent assertions on unemployment to know that. They cook the books so it goes down one month, get caught so it goes up again

and then they're doing alright because it's going up more slowly than it was in about 1925. If you count part timers who want to be full timers unemployment is now running at about 14 or 15 % of the active popultation even if you don't count those if 'aided employment' on the out of work to all intents and purposes side. Everything they do just f*cks up because basically they haven't got a clue what they're doing. They need money but we're already taxed to a point where we can hardly pay, a minimum wage job costs an employer about 15 euros an hour but the worker only gets about half of that, the rest just goes to fund the largesses of the state and benefits scroungers. It's fokking mess which is why the FN (extreme right) is running at 30% plus in the opinion polls.

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Window Cleaner

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So anyway, some bright spark is now trying to suggest that this gesture is inspired by Peter Sellers in the 60s film Dr Strangelove

where he wrestles with his right arm to stop it making Hitlerian salutes, Dieudonné says it isn't but then who wants to believe a bloke who thought that Osama was one of the great guys of our time.

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Hamilton Saint

Hamilton Saint

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Well you learn something new every day . I will not bother reading about the French comedian who started it .

As someone has already said people get offended by almost anything these days .

 

Almost anything? Pro-nazi attitudes? Which implies anti-semitic views? You don't find that offensive?

 

As the great conservative philosopher Edmund Burke once wrote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." People may be free to express an opinion, but if that opinion is pro-Nazi and, therefore, antisemitic, it needs to be challenged at every opportunity.

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St Chalet

St Chalet

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Ultimately this is a football forum (with a side lounge). I am sure there are lots of political sites where the wider issues can be discussed.

 

If Anelka does it again feel free to open a thread in respect of him.

 

I have deleted the previous two posts.

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