Evaluate our coaches - Who does what ?

[Convict Colony]

I am always interested in the specific specialities of the coaching system and what each of them brings, what they are tasked with and if possible whose rated highly v those not so much.

 

 

Would be interested to know the thoughts of anyone who has the inside scoop and what the informal feedback is.

[DuncanRG]

Me too. It's amazing how effectively clubs conceal the day-to-day details though - thousands of journalists cover our league and we hardly know anything about what happens between matches.

 

There are one or two around here who have some knowledge but that's it.

[Dr Who?]

Strange as I was thinking it is about time we produced a youth goalkeeper and centre backs oh and a ball winning midfielder. It all seems about pace and attacking players of late. Walcott, chamberlain, bale, Shaw, Lallana.......

 

When we get a keeper, they normally improve. Paul jones, niemi and now Boric. But we have not had a keeper come through and make the post his own, or any centre backs I can remember. Even going back to the Wallace brothers, shearer and Matty. Skills or pace.

[The Kraken]

Strange as I was thinking it is about time we produced a youth goalkeeper and centre backs oh and a ball winning midfielder. It all seems about pace and attacking players of late. Walcott, chamberlain, bale, Shaw, Lallana.......

 

When we get a keeper, they normally improve. Paul jones, niemi and now Boric. But we have not had a keeper come through and make the post his own, or any centre backs I can remember. Even going back to the Wallace brothers, shearer and Matty. Skills or pace.

I've long wondered why it is so; we've produced top class (some world class) players in pretty much every other position on the pitch apart from GK and CB. GK I can understand a little more, as keepers mature later and a fair proportion of the top goalkeepers that have come through in recent years have come from lower league clubs. But for us to not produce even one top quality CB in the past 30 years or so is mystifying.

[Dr Who?]

I've long wondered why it is so; we've produced top class (some world class) players in pretty much every other position on the pitch apart from GK and CB. GK I can understand a little more, as keepers mature later and a fair proportion of the top goalkeepers that have come through in recent years have come from lower league clubs. But for us to not produce even one top quality CB in the past 30 years or so is mystifying.

 

But you would expect one of our keepers to have come good even if at another club. CB I am not sure why this is. Even are full backs have always been attacking minded of late and would make good wingers, like bale.

[The Kraken]

But you would expect one of our keepers to have come good even if at another club. CB I am not sure why this is. Even are full backs have always been attacking minded of late and would make good wingers, like bale.

 

Some of our full backs (Bridge, Chambers, Bale) were not truly full backs. Bridge started as a midfielder, as did Chambers. Bale was always a much better attacking full back than he was a defensive one. I get the feeling that academies don't place a huge emphasis on the development of keepers, unlike other areas of the pitch its a real risk to throw in an untried youngster so chances for youth keepers are always going to be very rare. CB is the one that gets me, we've never been able to produce a decent one in all the years I've been watching Saints, Chris Baird and Matt Mills were about as good as it got.

[Dr Who?]

Some of our full backs (Bridge, Chambers, Bale) were not truly full backs. Bridge started as a midfielder, as did Chambers. Bale was always a much better attacking full back than he was a defensive one. I get the feeling that academies don't place a huge emphasis on the development of keepers, unlike other areas of the pitch its a real risk to throw in an untried youngster so chances for youth keepers are always going to be very rare. CB is the one that gets me, we've never been able to produce a decent one in all the years I've been watching Saints, Chris Baird and Matt Mills were about as good as it got.

 

But you would think we would produce one good keeper even if he went on at an older age to be a class keeper with someone else. There is a shortage of outstanding English keepers that needs to be addressed so surely we should do invest in this area?

[Sour Mash]

I am always interested in the specific specialities of the coaching system and what each of them brings, what they are tasked with and if possible whose rated highly v those not so much.

 

 

Would be interested to know the thoughts of anyone who has the inside scoop and what the informal feedback is.

Tony Jimenez does the First Team Goalkeeper coaching.

[The Kraken]

But you would think we would produce one good keeper even if he went on at an older age to be a class keeper with someone else. There is a shortage of outstanding English keepers that needs to be addressed so surely we should do invest in this area?

Not really, no I wouldn't. Look at the last 20 years or so of English keepers: Chris Woods, David Seaman, Tim Flowers, Nigel Martyn, David James, Paul Robinson, Joe Hart, Rob Green, Ben Foster. Hardly any came from top 4 clubs, plenty came from the lower leagues. Development of keepers is much more random than outfield players, and that none of the top sides have really produced a top English keeper in so many years underlines that.

[DuncanRG]

Not really, no I wouldn't. Look at the last 20 years or so of English keepers: Chris Woods, David Seaman, Tim Flowers, Nigel Martyn, David James, Paul Robinson, Joe Hart, Rob Green, Ben Foster. Hardly any came from top 4 clubs, plenty came from the lower leagues. Development of keepers is much more random than outfield players, and that none of the top sides have really produced a top English keeper in so many years underlines that.

 

Harder to spot talent young, I suppose.

[adrian lord]

The coaching, especially at Academy level and immediately above, must be subject to intense Industrial Secrecy measures given the £ involved if the "R+D" comes up with a real star.

 

It's the equivalent of, say, a pharmaceutical company and it's R+D department labs looking for and developing the next blockbuster drugs.

[shurlock]

Some of our full backs (Bridge, Chambers, Bale) were not truly full backs. Bridge started as a midfielder, as did Chambers. Bale was always a much better attacking full back than he was a defensive one. I get the feeling that academies don't place a huge emphasis on the development of keepers, unlike other areas of the pitch its a real risk to throw in an untried youngster so chances for youth keepers are always going to be very rare. CB is the one that gets me, we've never been able to produce a decent one in all the years I've been watching Saints, Chris Baird and Matt Mills were about as good as it got.

 

Interesting observation - possibly the economics dictate that clubs invest in the development of forward-minded players given they command greater transfer fees?

 

As you say, many of our fullbacks originally started as midfielders.

 

Or possibly there's been an assumption that CBs don't need to be coached to the same level as other positions given a (misguided) belief that physical rather than technical ability determines a good CB.

Edited 2 January, 2014 by shurlock

[Lord Duckhunter]

Not many players go into clubs youth systems or academy as full backs, the ones that make it at full back tend to be converted from other positions. Jamie carraghar made the same point on MNF the other night.

 

I've always felt that there's a lot of English players that had they been converted to centre half at a young age, would have been top top quality. Steve G for one, Bryan Robson another. Our forte seems to be barnstorming centre midfield players, but to compete at world level we need centre halves that can step into midfield and pass the ball. On another thread I suggested chambers could do this. I think that all clubs struggle to bring through centre halves , its really tough to blood players like you can at full back or wide mid.

 

As for keepers, again clubs struggle to get a pathway from youth to first team so we're not alone. My nipper was a decent keeper and was looked at by a few clubs, including the skates. He had loads of potential , but just didn't devolop as expected and now plays on pitch (at a half decent level). Talking to a scout who was monitoring him ,its quite common for youth keepers to just come to a grinding halt and just not push on.

[Dig Dig]

The physicality required to be a CB or GK is also a factor, a player can show promise as a GK or CB but don't develop in size and stature in their mid to late teens and are often moved into a different position.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I know it sounds blindingly obvious, but there is only ever one keeper in a team.

 

That naturally makes it harder for keepers to get game time to develop.

 

So much of goalkeeping can only be coached to a certain level too, things like shot stopping etc can to a degree, but someone either is agile/fast reacting enough or they are not. So much of goalkeeping is experience. Positioning, knowing when to come/stay, commanding an area etc.

 

Someone can seem an ok enough keeper, but chuck them into a big game and it can all unravel. We've seen first hand recently what happens when keepers are thrown in before they are ready. Which again hinders the chances for gks!

 

Has to be the hardest position to develop a player into in my opinion. There is a fair slice of luck involved in my opinion.

[vince]

I know it sounds blindingly obvious, but there is only ever one keeper in a team.

 

That naturally makes it harder for keepers to get game time to develop.

 

So much of goalkeeping can only be coached to a certain level too, things like shot stopping etc can to a degree, but someone either is agile/fast reacting enough or they are not. So much of goalkeeping is experience. Positioning, knowing when to come/stay, commanding an area etc.

 

Someone can seem an ok enough keeper, but chuck them into a big game and it can all unravel. We've seen first hand recently what happens when keepers are thrown in before they are ready. Which again hinders the chances for gks!

 

Has to be the hardest position to develop a player into in my opinion. There is a fair slice of luck involved in my opinion.

 

At grassroots level, keepers get much less coaching that outfield players, if they get any specialist coaching at all. Shooting practice for outfield players isn't really 'keeping practice for goalies - at mini soccer level they aren't going to stop many.

[ozzmeister]

Closest I can remember for CB are Mills and Crainie (both of which represented England at youth levels, one of which was also a captain)? Didn't one also go to Man City? Whatever happened to these two - both were good prospects I believe?

 

Goalkeepers I would tend to agree. The only youth one I remember is Poke. I guess Bart arguably was, and looked good in that match against Newcastle. However injury and confidence seemed to be his downfall.

 

Maybe England just isn't good at creating goalkeepers - I think in the prem there are one, maybe two english keepers? Look at other countries (Spain and Italy) and I suspect a much higher % are the home nationality. Could this be down to a more competitive reserve team structure (i.e. B-teams actually competing formally in the lower leagues)?

[Chewy]

Monk and Williamson both came through our ranks and are playing premier league football, so we've not completely failed, but they're nowhere near world class. I think the points above about there only being one keeper, and that all of England's top keepers came from lower league clubs are both very valid - top clubs can't afford to risk giving a young keeper the run of games they need to develop.

There's an element of this at centre back too, as mistakes by defenders are likely to be more costly than those of forwards, but it is still a bit surprising. Anyone know if any of the current crop are likely to buck this trend? Debayo looked good against Pompey in the youth cup.

I think the point above about converting midfielders into centre backs is probably valid - john terry was a midfielder as a youth, so too (I think?) rio; carragher was a full back initially. Maybe chambers has a future at centre half?

[Convict Colony]

Monk and Williamson both came through our ranks and are playing premier league football, so we've not completely failed, but they're nowhere near world class. I think the points above about there only being one keeper, and that all of England's top keepers came from lower league clubs are both very valid - top clubs can't afford to risk giving a young keeper the run of games they need to develop.

There's an element of this at centre back too, as mistakes by defenders are likely to be more costly than those of forwards, but it is still a bit surprising. Anyone know if any of the current crop are likely to buck this trend? Debayo looked good against Pompey in the youth cup.

I think the point above about converting midfielders into centre backs is probably valid - john terry was a midfielder as a youth, so too (I think?) rio; carragher was a full back initially. Maybe chambers has a future at centre half?

 

Look at Barca they have a pre-ordained policy of buying midfielders with the intention of using them as ball playing centre halve's, Song, Mascherano etc

[CanadaSaint]

My broader concern on this front is the lacking ability of our goalkeeping coaches to address known weaknesses in our keepers. Boruc continues to exhibit an over-confidence that can border on criminal casualness and can cost us goals, Davis remains vulnerable at the near post and less than convincing on crosses, and Gazzaniga has actually regressed quite significantly since his early days. Granted, the first two are seasoned professionals who could fit into a "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" category, but their weaknesses are addressable, given focused training. Gazza's regression in areas such as reading the game is a larger indictment of our goalkeeper coaching.