What is wrong with America

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

7 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Give me evidence please. Thats a general comment. There are plenty of videos of him out there to prove your point. 

Do some research mate. Why is it a general comment? I'll give you one for free though:

If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified.

In my opinion that's derogatory. 

[Sir Ralph]

9 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

“It's worth it to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year, so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights...That is a prudent deal.”
 

Out of interest, what do you make of his guns statement? Some might call that a derogatory thing to say.

Seriously?!! You consider that to be a derogatory statement? 

This is the video where he talks about it and refers to him reduction. 
 

I try to stay reasonable in my wording but this whole thing just proves to me what the left have become. They will dismiss anyone they don’t agree with even without evidence. It’s been proven on this thread a number of times and now claiming this statement is derogatory.

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[The Kraken]

Honestly, your ability to shout “the left” to anyone who comes close to disagreeing with you just makes you an utter parody.

[Sir Ralph]

4 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Do some research mate. Why is it a general comment? I'll give you one for free though:

If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified.

In my opinion that's derogatory. 

There’s your research. Here’s a life lesson - don’t believe all the bollocks you read on the internet

 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, Sir Ralph said:

There’s your research. Here’s a life lesson - don’t believe all the bollocks you read on the internet

 

Rather that post a video why don’t you summarise why that isn’t a racist comment?

[Sir Ralph]

Just now, The Kraken said:

Honestly, your ability to shout “the left” to anyone who comes close to disagreeing with you just makes you an utter parody.

Cause they are - multiple claims have been made about this bloke all of which are unfounded and have no evidence. Explain this to me, if there’s no evidence of him being racist and derogatory, why do so many people on here seem to want to find something wrong with him? Why not just say, maybe he wasn’t as bad as we thought. But no, persistently pursue the narrative

[Sir Ralph]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Rather that post a video why don’t you summarise why that isn’t a racist comment?

Are you joking? It’s the opposite - he doesn’t say anything negative or discrimatory about skin colour or heritage. Why do you think it is racist?

Edited 12 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[whelk]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Are you joking? It’s the opposite - he doesn’t say anything negative or discrimatory about skin colour or heritage. Why do you think it is racist?

 

10 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified.

I am taking Johnny S’s comment at face value. It looks very racist

 

[The Kraken]

2 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Cause they are - multiple claims have been made about this bloke all of which are unfounded and have no evidence. Explain this to me, if there’s no evidence of him being racist and derogatory, why do so many people on here seem to want to find something wrong with him? Why not just say, maybe he wasn’t as bad as we thought. But no, persistently pursue the narrative

I’d need to know who “the left” are to begin to answer that. I’ve no idea who ”they” are, as you put it. Or how you know why annyone talking with you an out this issue and not being in full angreement are “left” except for the fact they don’t agree with you. It’s an extremely bizarre concept.

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Are you joking? It’s the opposite - he doesn’t say anything negative or discrimatory about skin colour or heritage. Why do you think it is racist?

Do you work in an organisation? Try approaching a black colleague over others and say “I hope you are qualified?” 

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

I’d need to know who “the left” are to begin to answer that. I’ve no idea who ”they” are, as you put it. Or how you know why annyone talking with you an out this issue and not being in full angreement are “left” except for the fact they don’t agree with you. It’s an extremely bizarre concept.

We are all leftie shelf stackers envious of all the successful people

[Sir Ralph]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

 

I am taking Johnny S’s comment at face value. It looks very racist

 

Well I’ve given you the video of him saying what Jonny S alleges. Watch it and make your mind up. It’s a prime example of people making a statement to frame in a bad way when they didn’t say it.

[Sir Ralph]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Do you work in an organisation? Try approaching a black colleague over others and say “I hope you are qualified?” 

Cause he didn’t say that - watch the video and then tell me if it’s racist. This is painful

[The Kraken]

Just now, whelk said:

We are all leftie shelf stackers envious of all the successful people

It’s just so very odd. He seems to have now taken to showing videos which completely back up the intent of some of the statements being referenced. Wonderfully weird.

[whelk]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Cause he didn’t say that - watch the video and then tell me if it’s racist. This is painful

Ok you can’t explain it to me

[trousers]

To repeat an earlier post, I watched the video and it's quite clear to me that he's not being racist, quite the opposite in fact. 

 

[Sir Ralph]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Ok you can’t explain it to me

Yes the words Johnny S quoted would be racist but he doesn’t say that. It’s complete misinformation. If you watch the video you will see that.

 

4 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

It’s just so very odd. He seems to have now taken to showing videos which completely back up the intent of some of the statements being referenced. Wonderfully weird.

The reason I showed the video is because it is him using the relevant words. So you think what he says in that video is racist?

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

To repeat an earlier post, I watched the video and it's quite clear to me that he's not being racist, quite the opposite in fact. 

 

I am actually in a bar with music playing. I can’t watch YouTube but will later

[Sir Ralph]

Just now, whelk said:

I am actually in a bar with music playing. I can’t watch YouTube but will later

Enjoy your evening 

[Gloucester Saint]

48 minutes ago, trousers said:

To repeat an earlier post, I watched the video and it's quite clear to me that he's not being racist, quite the opposite in fact. 

 

What he’s saying is a bit of a straw man. The idea that hospitals, university medical faculties or pilot training schools are going to let less capable people, by they black, female or disabled into life and death professionals into roles because of EDI policies is Pompey FC level mythology. Affirmative action it should be stated has been very different to the UK Equality Act, in America and also in South African sport it has been a lot more active previously in addressing entry barriers but less so now, so that’s driving Kirk’s comments somewhat. 

All organisations have done is encourage more very talented and capable people from different backgrounds to apply for those roles, and in some cases make reasonable adjustments like bursaries for people from low income families, mentoring or slightly different shift patterns for a neurodiverse person. The training standard to pass is equally high and daunting. If you can’t do it really well, 100% of the shift, you won’t qualify, whoever you are. Train driver ages for training were dropped to 18 recently but they will have still have to pass months of very difficult tests and probation same as a 21 year old would (previous minimum age). But train companies are broadening their potential recruitment pool. Another form of EDI.

The principle that people need to equally skilled and qualified is fine and my own position. Let’s be clear that this isn’t Sir Keith Joseph going to UK universities in the 70s to debate free market concepts, as he did at the time inspired by positive ideas and beliefs which he thought would enhance everyone. This clip is doing something down. The racism is debatable but it’s anti ‘other’ and presumes less competence with no foundation.
I’m very sorry he was murdered though and I despise the lad that did it because there is no justification for it, full stop. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Enjoy your evening 

Thanks - it’s beautiful and even better looking at the shit weather back home. 

[The Kraken]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

The reason I showed the video is because it is him using the relevant words. So you think what he says in that video is racist?

I’m talking about the guns video. It does exactly what I expected from reading the text, it’s an awful video. And imo it’s a frankly horrendous thing to say. You seem to think otherwise, so ok.

[Turkish]

10 minutes ago, whelk said:

Thanks - it’s beautiful and even better looking at the shit weather back home. 

Where are you? 
 

[badgerx16]

45 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Are you joking? It’s the opposite - he doesn’t say anything negative or discrimatory about skin colour or heritage. Why do you think it is racist?

The issue is that his initial assumption is that the black pilot got his job because of his skin colour rather than being qualified. It assumes that DEI places values of ethnicity, religion, or gender above competence, which it does not. It is an attempt to ensure that positions are filled in a 'colour blind' manner, to correct a situation where, when there are 2 equally qualified candidates, the white one gets preference.

It is actually a clever attack on DEI, but why would he feel the need to question the pilot's competence at all ?

 

Edited 12 hours ago by badgerx16

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Where are you? 
 

Crete - was in Turkey earlier for work so worked out well. Although main mission is to ensure bar/taverna showing Pompey game

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

45 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

There’s your research. Here’s a life lesson - don’t believe all the bollocks you read on the internet

 

So why dont you reference the original video mate? 23rd January 2024.

Using the pretext that DEI has allowed a black person to get a job as a pilot. Seriously? Do you not think pilots have a ton of tests, exams and scrutinised over hundreds of training hours? Before getting a job?

Not sure why you cant accept that I disagree with your view that you dont think he's said anything derogatory. 

 

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

So why dont you reference the original video mate? 23rd January 2024.

Using the pretext that DEI has allowed a black person to get a job as a pilot. Seriously? Do you not think pilots have a ton of tests, exams and scrutinised over hundreds of training hours? Before getting a job?

Not sure why you cant accept that I disagree with your view that you dont think he's said anything derogatory. 

 

Positive discrimination has happened over here in certain government areas. 

Whether it was 'dangerous' is something else.

Morally, it is (or was)

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

Crete - was in Turkey earlier for work so worked out well. Although main mission is to ensure bar/taverna showing Pompey game

Nice never made it to Crete booked it twice but had to cancel due to Covid. Booked a few nights on the Amalfi Coast next month 

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Nice never made it to Crete booked it twice but had to cancel due to Covid. Booked a few nights on the Amalfi Coast next month 

very nice around there

Get yourself over to Naples...very 'edgy' place

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Nice never made it to Crete booked it twice but had to cancel due to Covid. Booked a few nights on the Amalfi Coast next month 

Nice - hopefully going to do Italian road trip in May. TBH could permanently holiday in Italy although love Greece too.  Everyone seems welcoming and pleased to see you

[Sir Ralph]

18 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The issue is that his initial assumption is that the black pilot got his job because of his skin colour rather than being qualified. It assumes that DEI places values of ethnicity, religion, or gender above competence, which it does not. It is an attempt to ensure that positions are filled in a 'colour blind' manner, to correct a situation where, when there are 2 equally qualified candidates, the white one gets preference.

It is actually a clever attack on DEI, but why would he feel the need to question the pilot's competence at all ?

 

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of DEI, I think the point was made earlier was he made racist comments based on the extraction of some text. You might disagree with what he says about DEI and others may agree.
 

You need to remember that he is also undertaking a debate with somebody - an exchange of views. It isn’t a speech.

The point he is making is in his opinion is that DEI can place importance on matters other than competence.  He also in other videos used the inverse about if you applied DEI to white people and how that would not result in the best outcome. You may disagree with his views on DEIs and the outcomes of it but the point he is making is that in his opinion DEI doesnt result in the best outcomes. In my opinion that isn’t a racist view which is what was alleged 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Gloucester Saint]

9 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Positive discrimination has happened over here in certain government areas. 

Whether it was 'dangerous' is something else.

Morally, it is (or was)

A more diverse range of applicants were encouraged to apply. Not the same thing having sat on panels as an outside to that sector. 

Same interview/assessment centres/exams. What there can be under the law is say for a neurodiverse applicant a few extra minutes or having your notes in front of you.

But if you’re not neurodiverse carrying this example on, you don’t have that impairment eg memory, so it the playing field, nothing more. If you don’t have the experience, ideas and skills, you won’t be the best candidate, and if you didn’t meet the essential criteria in the first place you would never get an interview.

Shared experience from someone who has done 25 years of this stuff, and PS, commercial and charitable sector does it too. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

very nice around there

Get yourself over to Naples...very 'edgy' place

I have been swayed by Gomorrah although was there briefly in 1990 for Cameroon game

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Gloucester Saint said:

A more diverse range of applicants were encouraged to apply. Not the same thing having sat on panels as an outside to that sector. 

Same interview/assessment centres/exams. What there can be under the law is say for a neurodiverse applicant a few extra minutes or having your notes in front of you.

But if you’re not neurodiverse, you don’t have that impairment eg memory, so it the playing field, nothing more. If you don’t have the experience, ideas and skills, you won’t be the best candidate, and if you didn’t meet the essential criteria in the first place you would never get an interview.

Shared experience from someone who has done 25 years of this stuff, and PS, commercial and charitable sector does it too. 

Maybe, but we have seen within UK Government departments unlawful discrimination against white men.

That should always be unacceptable.

 

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

very nice around there

Get yourself over to Naples...very 'edgy' place

 

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Nice - hopefully going to do Italian road trip in May. TBH could permanently holiday in Italy although love Greece too.  Everyone seems welcoming and pleased to see you

Been there before but some years ago, only 4 nights this time for a autumn break

My favourite part of Italy is Sardinia simply wonderful, beaches like the Caribbean but with Italian culture. Looking to buy a holiday home there in the next five years. 

[iansums]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Nice - hopefully going to do Italian road trip in May. TBH could permanently holiday in Italy although love Greece too.  Everyone seems welcoming and pleased to see you

Sounds good, we’ve just booked Lake Garda and Como for next year, first time doing Italian lakes.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

6 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of DEI, I think the point was made earlier was he made racist comments based on the extraction of some text. You might disagree with what he says about DEI and others may agree.
 

You need to remember that he is also undertaking a debate with somebody - an exchange of views. It isn’t a speech.

The point he is making is in his opinion is that DEI can place importance on matters other than competence.  He also in other videos used the inverse about if you applied DEI to white people and how that would not result in the best outcome. You may disagree with his views on DEIs and the outcomes of it but the point he is making is that in his opinion DEI doesnt result in the best outcomes. In my opinion that isn’t a racist view which is what was alleged 

 

So not racist but derogatory then right?

[trousers]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

My favourite part of Italy is Sardinia

Appreciate we're going off topic here but would appreciate recommendations of which part(s) of Sardinia to stay as it's on our shortlist for next year. Would be our first visit. And any other tips. Cheers.

Edited 11 hours ago by trousers

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Maybe, but we have seen within UK Government departments unlawful discrimination against white men.

That should always be unacceptable.

 

Genuine question, can you show an example?

No straw men involved and I’ll look with open eyes, if I think they have, I’ll say so as well.

Going to bed shortly as voluntary working tmw (but off on Sunday!) so it may be tomorrow that I see it.

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Appreciate we're going off topic here but would appreciate recommendations of which part(s) of Sardinia to stay as it's on our shortlist for next year. Would be out first visit. Cheers. 

Lovely. Did Mrs Trousers not fancy the Falklands in the end.

Bit cold for me.

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Genuine question, can you show an example?

No straw men involved and I’ll look with open eyes, if I think they have, I’ll say so as well.

Going to bed shortly as voluntary working tmw (but off on Sunday!) so it may be tomorrow that I see it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66060490

Quote

Initiatives to increase the numbers of women and people from ethnic minorities in the RAF led to unlawful positive discrimination, an inquiry has found.

He was quoted saying he wanted to "test the limits of the law" to fast track women and ethnic minorities over white men.

He acted illegally/unlawfully

Edited 11 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[iansums]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

So not racist but derogatory then right?

Give it a rest FFS, we’re talking about Italy now

[Sheaf Saint]

10 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Positive discrimination has happened over here in certain government areas. 

This is true, it has. But what it hasn't done, as Kirk was trying to make out, is actually place people in roles that they are not qualified or capable of doing purely because of their skin colour or religious background. What it has done is ensure that people from those minority groups are given the equal opportunity to demonstrate their capability at the selection stage that their socio-economic status might otherwise have prevented.

So it's all very well CK saying that he just wants the best people for the job to be selected regardless of skin colour, and he's absolutely right that this should always be the right way to employ people. But no matter how much he tries to rationalise it, to say that he has to question whether or not a black pilot is actually qualified demonstrates a) a total misunderstanding of how DEI principles actually work and b) a very revealing tendency towards racial profiling. 

[trousers]

1 minute ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Lovely. Did Mrs Trousers not fancy the Falklands in the end.

Bit cold for me.

Ha! No... I won that particular battle... Ended up going to The Seychelles... 😁⛱️☀️

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66060490

He was quoted saying he wanted to 'test the limits of the law" to fast track women and ethnic minorities over white men.

He acted illegally. 

Yep, that’s unfair practice, trying to change too quickly and the pace they were trying to do it would likely penalise some applicants, which the opposite of what it’s trying to do.

Give you that one, said I’d be objective.

An interesting question is whether people agree with white people from low income backgrounds receiving EDI encouragement or say bursaries to attend FE/changing careers/university?

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

Ended up going to The Seychelles... 😁⛱️☀️

Not a fan...

which part did you stay? Mahe?

[trousers]

1 minute ago, Sheaf Saint said:

But what it hasn't done, as Kirk was trying to make out, is actually place people in roles that they are not qualified or capable of doing

In the video I watched, he wasn't saying that. He was simply saying that if you have quotas based on factors other than how good you are, you *might* not end up with the very best people in a given role. He never says that unqualified or incapable people could end up in said roles. I've only watched that one video though. 

[Gloucester Saint]

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

Ha! No... I won that particular battle... Ended up going to The Seychelles... 😁⛱️☀️

Lush! Was it great?

Been to Bahamas and all around the Caribbean but never there. Another destination I’d love to go to is the South Seas islands, Moorea and Cook Islands.

But need to finish renovating this house first…

Edited 11 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Not a fan...

which part did you stay? Mahe?

We loved it. Yep, Mahe. Having our own villa with a private pool might have helped the enjoyment levels to be fair

That said, I preferred Mauritius to the Seychelles, but would recommend both. 

Edited 11 hours ago by trousers

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

3 minutes ago, iansums said:

Give it a rest FFS, we’re talking about Italy now

I'm just jealous. Only time I've been was about 18 years ago with AliItalia.

Did get to go to the Como area though for a wedding. Amazing.