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JP used to be so honest in his comments.


offix
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Sad to see JP resort to critisism of the referee as a reason for our loss yesterday. Takes me back to Burley's days.

 

Until now, even while I always thought JP is out of his depth big time, I also had respect for what I perceived to be his honesty in post match comments.

But to blame the ref for this one, as he is doing now, is completely ludicrous. We had no shots of any significance at goal, we created not a single real chance.

I don't care to debate if their goal was off-side, if the penalty was just; it doesn't matter at all. We would not have scored if we played for 5 days straight against them, and Kelvin can only make up for a limited number of defensive errors. Stay honest JP, and recognize where it's all going wrong!

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Were you at the ground?

 

I was an have been to all but three of our total games this year and i 100% agree with what Offix has said. It was a blatent red card and was a blatent penalty. Maybe JP should of spoke to Patterson and said something like "lunging in off the ground with studs showing over the ball and hitting the opponent is a auto red card". Or maybe telling DMG "Dave when you try to defend a set piece and your in your own area maybe dont jump with your hands above your head, keep them to the side like your team mates that way you dont give the opponents a chance to get a penalty". Or with the goal how about saying "for the millionth time dont stand around with your hands in the air waving at the ref or linesman, play until the whistle is blown, how the fook did the guy have no marker for the free header?!". You know maybe things like that rather then "we was robbed, the ref did us in". Because looking at the replays it would seem the ref got every decision right and thus Jan looks even more of a clueless muppet.

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Were you saying that at the time? Because i distinctly remember most of the ground going mental at the ref...

 

I did say to my dad as we walked back to the pub that i bet Paterson's challenge is one of those which looks terrible when shown in slow motion. And it did look pretty bad. But i don't think many people that were there really thought for a second that that was going to be a sending off...most around me (and i was in the Kingsland right in line with the incident) were amazed that he was going to book him in fact. Which was shown in the utter disbelief at the decision and general anger within the ground at the time. In fact someone quite close to me threw his bottle of pop onto the pitch in disgust.

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Were you saying that at the time? Because i distinctly remember most of the ground going mental at the ref...

 

I did say to my dad as we walked back to the pub that i bet Paterson's challenge is one of those which looks terrible when shown in slow motion. And it did look pretty bad. But i don't think many people that were there really thought for a second that that was going to be a sending off...most around me (and i was in the Kingsland right in line with the incident) were amazed that he was going to book him in fact. Which was shown in the utter disbelief at the decision and general anger within the ground at the time. In fact someone quite close to me threw his bottle of pop onto the pitch in disgust.

 

At the time i thought the ref was a total ****** and got all the decisions wrong especially the red card. It is one of those things were when your at the match you only see it in real time and only once, you dont get the chance to see a replay. When i got home i saw the replays and saw what everyone else was saying and you have to say the ref got them all right. Jan should of gone into the tv room and watched the clips before coming out saying what he did. The thing is he did not say it just for that game he said it was like that the whole season etc.. I could totally understand if week in week out we are hard done by but other then the Wolves game i dont think we have, in fact i would say in games we have had more decisions go our way then against us. We lose because we deserve to lose not because the ref doesnt give us decisions and i dont think Jan is the type who would accept that, he has not once taken any blame for any of our 13 or more defeats.

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Well that puts you into a very small minority.

 

Total ******** and you know it. It was a penalty. If you jump with your hands in the air and the ball hits your hand it is a free kick or in this instance a penalty. That is the rules of the game.

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"I think a lot of the 3-0 is down to the referee, because the goal for 1-0 was offside, I didn't think the penalty should have been one, and then we had a player sent off on top of that.

 

"The red card was too much because for me one leg was on the ball. After that happened though I have to give the boys a compliment because when everything is against you and you go on you can only give them praise."

 

"I felt sorry for the game in general because we could do more with eleven men and that would have been better for the people watching.

 

"Manchester United deserved to win for sure, but I think that's normal, especially against a side with 10 men.

 

"The game is always better when you play eleven against eleven, because you can do more. I think we started well but there was a time when we had too much respect for them and let them come too much and in that time they made the first goal.

 

"I think we should maybe do something in the second half but you need 11 players and we didn't have that.

 

"The positive is that the boys never gave up and fought till the end. That was what they had to do and next week they start again and fight to stay in the league. That is what they will do and we have to work hard.

 

"We have enough quality and we have players coming back as well, so the league is now what we will focus on.

 

"I don't think anyone else will leave. I think everyone will stay and that will be good and I hope we can do something to increase our options in defence because we are very small there, but we will have to wait and see what we can do to make the team stronger."

 

"The quality is there, they play so easy, such good football but I thought that sometimes we gave them a difficult time. With 11 against ten you saw the space they have and what they can do with the ball and that was very good.

 

"I can only give my players a compliment, because the worked to the end for a better result and that is all I can ask."

 

----------------------------------------------

 

It's hardly all blaming the ref though is it?

 

1) He acknowldeges they're a top side and deserved to win.

2) He feels the sending off ruined the game as a spectacle.

3) He feels the penalty was harsh.

4) He feels the second goal was offside.

 

I find it difficult to disagree with any of these things...

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Total ******** and you know it. It was a penalty. If you jump with your hands in the air and the ball hits your hand it is a free kick or in this instance a penalty. That is the rules of the game.

 

But it hit his shoulder or his head from all the replays i've seen. It would have been a lot easier for him not to give that penalty.

 

It was obvious we were never going to win at that point. Riley was just being a attention seeking c::ckend. As you have already acknowledged you felt at the time...

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Total ******** and you know it. It was a penalty. If you jump with your hands in the air and the ball hits your hand it is a free kick or in this instance a penalty. That is the rules of the game.

It hit the back of his head - he was stupid to have his arm raised but the ball missed it by at least six inches, which all the replays have shown quite clearly.

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But it hit his shoulder or his head from all the replays i've seen. It would have been a lot easier for him not to give that penalty.

 

It was obvious we were never going to win at that point. Riley was just being a attention seeking c::ckend. As you have already acknowledged you felt at the time...

 

The replay on http://www.lovefooty.net/southampton-vs-manchester-united-highlights-video-fa-cup/ if you look at 2.40 in super slow mo you see it hit his arm.

 

The point is the decisions were the actual correct laws of the game. If he did not give them people would of been *****ing that he didnt. The way i try to see it is imagine if it was on the other foot. Imagine say Vidic did that to patterson and the ref did not give it, imagine if Nani stuck his hands up from a DMG free kick and it hit his arm and was not given. We would of all gone even more anti ref im sure!

 

At the time as i said i felt he got them wrong because from where i was sitting it looked it. but i know full well what it is like in those situations, you sort of let your emotions run riot rather then your brain. No doubt it will be the same at Barnsley :)

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Like I said, whether his decisions were right or wrong (I happen to believe they were right) is irrelevant. We played without heart, without desire, without any significant work rate. For JP to say that the boys "kept fighting" is to say the least misleading, as they never really "fought" for the ball from the beginning.

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The replay on http://www.lovefooty.net/southampton-vs-manchester-united-highlights-video-fa-cup/ if you look at 2.40 in super slow mo you see it hit his arm.

 

The point is the decisions were the actual correct laws of the game. If he did not give them people would of been *****ing that he didnt. The way i try to see it is imagine if it was on the other foot. Imagine say Vidic did that to patterson and the ref did not give it, imagine if Nani stuck his hands up from a DMG free kick and it hit his arm and was not given. We would of all gone even more anti ref im sure!

 

At the time as i said i felt he got them wrong because from where i was sitting it looked it. but i know full well what it is like in those situations, you sort of let your emotions run riot rather then your brain. No doubt it will be the same at Barnsley :)

 

But surely from where Riley was stood and due to the fact there was no linesman on that side and the fact he had no super slow replays to base his decision on he shouldn't give it. And lets face it most commentators were struggling to make there mind up after multiple replays...

 

I say if there's any doubt you shouldn't be making the decision...but of course it is Manchester United and Riley wouldn't want to be on the end of a bollocking off Ferguson as it could seriously harm his career...

 

And i think that having a go at Jan for showing a bit of passion and sticking by his players regardless of the facts is a little harsh...we call out for passion...we know the manager needs to stick by his players...we know a manager needs to be a bad loser...

 

And then we pan him for it...

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Like I said, whether his decisions were right or wrong (I happen to believe they were right) is irrelevant. We played without heart, without desire, without any significant work rate. For JP to say that the boys "kept fighting" is to say the least misleading, as they never really "fought" for the ball from the beginning.

 

I agree, sadly. We were so far out of our depth, we nearly drowned. We can moan "We wuz robbed by the Ref/Lino/Weather/ManUre" as much as we like/want but it doe not hide the facts. Those are, we are like a ship without a rudder and a captain.

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But surely from where Riley was stood and due to the fact there was no linesman on that side and the fact he had no super slow replays to base his decision on he shouldn't give it. And lets face it most commentators were struggling to make there mind up after multiple replays...

 

I say if there's any doubt you shouldn't be making the decision...but of course it is Manchester United and Riley wouldn't want to be on the end of a bollocking off Ferguson as it could seriously harm his career...

 

And i think that having a go at Jan for showing a bit of passion and sticking by his players regardless of the facts is a little harsh...we call out for passion...we know the manager needs to stick by his players...we know a manager needs to be a bad loser...

 

And then we pan him for it...

 

Dont get me wrong i 100% agree with you about the fact you should not make a decision unless your sure. But if you look at the replay your see he is like 2 yards away from the wall when its struck. If you also listen to what Kelvin said in his post match interview he also said it was a definate penalty. He said ""From where I saw it, it definitely hit his hands," he said.

 

"It's not something you want but it hit the guy on the hands as far as I could see and I think it was the right decision."

 

You can read his remarks here

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Southampton-0-Manchester-Utd-3.4842227.jp

 

But that is football isnt it. If we all thought the same thing we would have nothing to talk about :)

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I admit that Jan is out of his depth, and I do feel sorry for him because he just isn't good enough and yet won't be sacked. But to say it was handball is rubbish. It clearly wasn't handball, if you can't see that, you need to make an appointment with your local Optician.

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Have to agree with jan here! I believe that the game was completely ruined by the referee. We all knew we were going to lose and we all saw that it could have been by many more, but for anyone to tell me that the referee would have sent off a Man Utd player for the same tackle and for anyone to say that the ball hit his hand when at the time of watching it and for countless other replays since it clearly hit the back of his head, then they must have been watching another game! The game i was watching for the first twenty minutes saw us passing it about and getting in amongst them. Fair enough they then took over and scored a goal that was offside but the linesman didnt see that! Altogether i think without the two major decisions by the referee we would have seen a completely different game!

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I was an have been to all but three of our total games this year and i 100% agree with what Offix has said. It was a blatent red card and was a blatent penalty. Maybe JP should of spoke to Patterson and said something like "lunging in off the ground with studs showing over the ball and hitting the opponent is a auto red card". Or maybe telling DMG "Dave when you try to defend a set piece and your in your own area maybe dont jump with your hands above your head, keep them to the side like your team mates that way you dont give the opponents a chance to get a penalty". Or with the goal how about saying "for the millionth time dont stand around with your hands in the air waving at the ref or linesman, play until the whistle is blown, how the fook did the guy have no marker for the free header?!". You know maybe things like that rather then "we was robbed, the ref did us in". Because looking at the replays it would seem the ref got every decision right and thus Jan looks even more of a clueless muppet.

 

Slow motion proves you and Riley wrong on every decision. The first goal was offside. Welbeck was offside at the precise moment O'Shea headed the ball.

 

Paterson, actually connected with the ball, admittedly one foot studs showing, but Vidic also was slightly lower, missed the ball but one foot studs showing. Vidic's foot and shin went under and across Patersons.

 

Both should have been booked for the studs up but it wasn't a sending off. Riley has record for sending off players in MU games and has given twice as many penalties all in favour of MU.

 

The penalty decision was a joke the slow motion shows it hit McGoldrick on the back of his head. It missed his raised arm completely. The referee was close enough to see that but was gesturing with his elbow, however he got it wrong.

 

In my view if the decisions were against MU. Riley wouldn't have given them.

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The replay on http://www.lovefooty.net/southampton-vs-manchester-united-highlights-video-fa-cup/ if you look at 2.40 in super slow mo you see it hit his arm.

 

The point is the decisions were the actual correct laws of the game. If he did not give them people would of been *****ing that he didnt. The way i try to see it is imagine if it was on the other foot. Imagine say Vidic did that to patterson and the ref did not give it, imagine if Nani stuck his hands up from a DMG free kick and it hit his arm and was not given. We would of all gone even more anti ref im sure!

 

At the time as i said i felt he got them wrong because from where i was sitting it looked it. but i know full well what it is like in those situations, you sort of let your emotions run riot rather then your brain. No doubt it will be the same at Barnsley :)

 

A quick scan of the internet show that not many people think it was a penalty...

 

Comment at 47 mins:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/04/manchester-united-southampton-fa-cup-live

 

Comment at 17:10:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/fa_cup/7810369.stm

 

Comment at 52 mins:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/liveScores.html?cid=114&mid=12957

 

Para 22:

 

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=259005&&cc=5739

 

"The decision clearly a poor one as TV replays showed the ball hitting McGoldrick's head as he turned away"

 

etc, etc

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hmmm

 

the PRO footballer with the best view (kelvin) said it was a penalty...

 

Kelvin was on the other side of the wall so how on earth could he see? It was stupid of McGoldrick to jump with his hand rasied but technically it was not a penalty.

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Kelvin was on the other side of the wall so how on earth could he see? It was stupid of McGoldrick to jump with his hand rasied but technically it was not a penalty.

 

 

either way...it was harldy a crucial moment..as i cant see THAT from stopping is winning the game....we already stopped putting up a fight from about the 20 minute mark...

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...but the television cameras, with slow motion replays show it wasn't a penalty...

 

 

ah..but the PRO who saw it (like the ref) once at full speed said it was a definate penalty..he was about 12 yards away and was looking straight at it...

 

like it said..it matters not..unless of course, you think we would have done anything of note if it had not been given..?

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ah..but the PRO who saw it (like the ref) once at full speed said it was a definate penalty..he was about 12 yards away and was looking straight at it...

 

like it said..it matters not..unless of course, you think we would have done anything of note if it had not been given..?

 

No, I doubt we would have, but if the first goal had been correctly disallowed and the penalty not given it would still have been 0-0 and there is a small chance we may have been able to hang on and force a replay. Unlikely but certainly possible.

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Usually if those descisions go against us I am seething, the first goal was offside, the penalty was very harsh and it was never a sending off.

 

However ManUre's reserves beat us without breaking sweat, the descisions were irellivant, we would have lost regardless, probably by the same score. If we had managed to fluke a goal early on United would have just stepped up a gear and probably would have beat us by a greater margin than 3-0.

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Usually if those descisions go against us I am seething, the first goal was offside, the penalty was very harsh and it was never a sending off.

 

However ManUre's reserves beat us without breaking sweat, the descisions were irellivant, we would have lost regardless, probably by the same score. If we had managed to fluke a goal early on United would have just stepped up a gear and probably would have beat us by a greater margin than 3-0.

 

Almost exactly how I saw the whole thing. I'm beginning to be torn with thinking JP is a perfectly good coach with poor players, or JP is a poor coach with perfectly good players. The truth is undoubtedly somewhere in between.

 

In any case, Ferguson is old enough to have encountered total football in his Aberdeen management days. ;)

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Slow motion proves you and Riley wrong on every decision. The first goal was offside. Welbeck was offside at the precise moment O'Shea headed the ball.

 

Paterson, actually connected with the ball, admittedly one foot studs showing, but Vidic also was slightly lower, missed the ball but one foot studs showing. Vidic's foot and shin went under and across Patersons.

 

Both should have been booked for the studs up but it wasn't a sending off. Riley has record for sending off players in MU games and has given twice as many penalties all in favour of MU.

 

The penalty decision was a joke the slow motion shows it hit McGoldrick on the back of his head. It missed his raised arm completely. The referee was close enough to see that but was gesturing with his elbow, however he got it wrong.

 

In my view if the decisions were against MU. Riley wouldn't have given them.

I agree completely. That's exactly how I saw it at the time and that's how I see it now after several looks at the replays. I still think that we would have lost comfortably, but that's not the point. It's always the same when a 'Premiership' referee handles a game between a 'top' team and one from the lower divisions. They are on first-name terms with the famous players whereas with our lot it's 'oi you, come 'ere'.

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Sad to see JP resort to critisism of the referee as a reason for our loss yesterday. Takes me back to Burley's days.

 

Until now, even while I always thought JP is out of his depth big time, I also had respect for what I perceived to be his honesty in post match comments.

But to blame the ref for this one, as he is doing now, is completely ludicrous. We had no shots of any significance at goal, we created not a single real chance.

I don't care to debate if their goal was off-side, if the penalty was just; it doesn't matter at all. We would not have scored if we played for 5 days straight against them, and Kelvin can only make up for a limited number of defensive errors. Stay honest JP, and recognize where it's all going wrong!

 

I agree it was probably just offside, although from where I was (block 5), I had no idea, and even fron tv replays later that evening didn't really notice it til it was mentioned.

 

I agree it wasn't a handball, but McG was stupid for having his hand up.

 

But to say it wasn't a red card is laughable. I was actually cringing when watching JP's comments on ITV last night when he said it was a good tackle which got a foot on the ball. If United player made the same tackle as Paterson I think it's safe to assume we'd all be up in arms about it had it not been a straight red...

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"I think a lot of the 3-0 is down to the referee, because the goal for 1-0 was offside, I didn't think the penalty should have been one, and then we had a player sent off on top of that.

 

"The red card was too much because for me one leg was on the ball. After that happened though I have to give the boys a compliment because when everything is against you and you go on you can only give them praise."

 

"I felt sorry for the game in general because we could do more with eleven men and that would have been better for the people watching.

 

"Manchester United deserved to win for sure, but I think that's normal, especially against a side with 10 men.

 

"The game is always better when you play eleven against eleven, because you can do more. I think we started well but there was a time when we had too much respect for them and let them come too much and in that time they made the first goal.

 

"I think we should maybe do something in the second half but you need 11 players and we didn't have that.

 

"The positive is that the boys never gave up and fought till the end. That was what they had to do and next week they start again and fight to stay in the league. That is what they will do and we have to work hard.

 

"We have enough quality and we have players coming back as well, so the league is now what we will focus on.

 

"I don't think anyone else will leave. I think everyone will stay and that will be good and I hope we can do something to increase our options in defence because we are very small there, but we will have to wait and see what we can do to make the team stronger."

 

"The quality is there, they play so easy, such good football but I thought that sometimes we gave them a difficult time. With 11 against ten you saw the space they have and what they can do with the ball and that was very good.

 

"I can only give my players a compliment, because the worked to the end for a better result and that is all I can ask."

 

----------------------------------------------

 

It's hardly all blaming the ref though is it?

 

Depends which quotes one refers to....

 

The OS 'mysteriously' missed this one:

 

Predictably, home boss Jan Poortvliet tore into Riley: 'Arsene Wenger has said United always get the 50-50 decisions and I agree. Alex stood up once to have a word and after that everything went their way.

 

'I was very disappointed with the game but I was also disappointed with the decisions. You need neutral people, because maybe he did not know my players - referees who are not going to help the top teams.'

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1105123/Southampton-0-Man-Utd-3-Too-easy-United-Saints-suffer-Patersons-red.html

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Depends which quotes one refers to....

 

The OS 'mysteriously' missed this one:

 

Predictably, home boss Jan Poortvliet tore into Riley: 'Arsene Wenger has said United always get the 50-50 decisions and I agree. Alex stood up once to have a word and after that everything went their way.

 

'I was very disappointed with the game but I was also disappointed with the decisions. You need neutral people, because maybe he did not know my players - referees who are not going to help the top teams.'

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1105123/Southampton-0-Man-Utd-3-Too-easy-United-Saints-suffer-Patersons-red.html

 

Very good summary from the Mail I thought. Surprising.

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1) He acknowldeges they're a top side and deserved to win.

2) He feels the sending off ruined the game as a spectacle.

3) He feels the penalty was harsh.

4) He feels the second goal was offside.

 

I find it difficult to disagree with any of these things...

 

The "offside" goal. When exactly do you think he was offside? When the ball came back off the bar? Not offside. When the ball was first played towards the bar from middle-left of the penalty area? Didn't look offside at that point to me. Dozing defenders when the ball came off the bar was the problem.

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The "offside" goal. When exactly do you think he was offside? When the ball came back off the bar? Not offside. When the ball was first played towards the bar from middle-left of the penalty area? Didn't look offside at that point to me. Dozing defenders when the ball came off the bar was the problem.

 

http://www.lovefooty.net/southampton-vs-manchester-united-highlights-video-fa-cup/

 

Quite plainly offside when the header from O'Shea comes in...not an easy decision to make as it was quick...but he definitely is offside.

 

Dozing defenders when O'Shea ran completely unchallenged into our box would be fairer. Once it crashes off the bar they've got no chance as it happens so quickly and Wellbeck is running onto it...

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The "offside" goal. When exactly do you think he was offside? When the ball came back off the bar? Not offside. When the ball was first played towards the bar from middle-left of the penalty area? Didn't look offside at that point to me. Dozing defenders when the ball came off the bar was the problem.

He was offside at the moment that the corner was headed towards the goal and standing in the goalmouth so definitely gaining an advantage.

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He was offside at the moment that the corner was headed towards the goal and standing in the goalmouth so definitely gaining an advantage.

 

It wouldn't have been offside if he had left it for his mate next to him to nod it in because he had come from an onside position but Welbeck, in an offside position when O'shea headed originally, became active when he decided he would nod in the rebound.

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