egg

You're not focusing on the whole picture. Hamas as an organisation does not want Israel to exist. The Israeli government, representing the country, does not want a Palestine to exist. Your focus on what the Arab people decided in the 1940's, and what Hamas did on 7/10, but completely ignoring the 75 years in between and the events of the last 12 days, is a very strange approach.

Only if a) you focus on the event since 7/10, and b) have a complete lack of regard for proportionality and international law

How does that help now? What's the solution now? Several eyes for 1 eye? Destroying Gaza?

Where does all this equivalence talk come from? Where there is equivalence: There are two sides at fault. Two sides who don't want the other to exist. Two sides who want their own state. Two sides killing the people of the other. Where there is not equivalence: One side doing a hell of a lot more killing and causing a hell of a lot more destruction. Anyone who believes that Israel do not want to see all Palestinians off of what they see as Israeli land is misguided and naive. The assault on Gaza ain't about getting rid of Hamas. It's about getting rid of the Palestinians. And Hamas are not Palestinians.

Do Hamas want an Israel any more than the Israeli government want a separate Palestine? The answer is that neither want the other, but Israel smashing the shit out of Gaza and knicking chunks of the West Bank ain't going to stop the Palestinians wanting what that they should have. The need for acceptance of the reality doesn't rest with just the Palestinians.

I spoke with an Jewish Brit yesterday. He has family in Israel who he describes as "caught up" in what has happened, but did not elaborate. His view is that the popular view in Israel is that they feel that the IDF actions have gone way too far, as has the settlement policy and other stuff. His view was that the Israeli populous would support a 3 state solution, with Israel having some of the west bank and that becoming an independent Palestinian state, Gaza (if there's anything left) a separate Palestine state, and Israel having it's own state. I'd never considered that an option, but I can see the wisdom.

This won't stop Hamas. It's an organisation underpinninned by an ideology. Every death of the parent or sibling of a Palestinian child cements hate of Israel into that child. In time, that leads to a wish for vengeance from that child, and a perpetual cycle of hate/death/instability. Israel are doing the opposite of their stated ambition.

There'll be nothing from either. Neither will deviate from the american line, and neither will want the anti semitic allegation. Very sad when civilised nations can't/won't speak out against the behaviour that we're seeing. Alas, I still think we ain't seen anything yet, and I don't think the americans are even close to calling a stop to it.

The overnight events were utterly predictable - "move to south Gaza where you'll be safe", only to then get bombed in the south. "Ministry of Health officials have told us that at least 71 people were killed overnight in Israeli bombardments. The heaviest bombardments occurred in three areas in the south of Gaza: Khan Younis, Rafah and Deir el-Balah. Many of those killed are families who evacuated from Gaza City and the northern part of the Strip as ordered by Israel. Ambulances are transporting the injured to already overcrowded hospitals, and we are told that many people are still trapped in the rubble of the targeted buildings, awaiting rescue". Can any of the Israeli supporters explain how this gets anywhere near Israel defending itself?

Yeah, hideous behaviour. They can take out some of the individuals. All that'll achieve is a short term win, but result in a longer term and bigger fight. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

They will indeed. Regardless, wherever they are, Hamas can't be wiped off the map. Kill a leader, another steps up. Even then, you can't kill an ideology, and that ain't going anywhere as long as Israel occupy Palestinian land. The point that many are missing (not least Israel) is that this collective punishment will only breed the hatred/ideology/instability.

Recuperation

Sabbath

If you want to have a chat about Afghanistan (or Syria) crack on and start a thread mate.

I don't doubt that, and that ia why I believe there's a genuine push to force the Gaza population over the permanently. Netanyahu can't genuinely believe that he'll eradicate the Hamas threat from Gaza with military action. However, he'll be pretty certain that it is achievable if there's no Palestinians in Gaza and/or Gaza is destroyed to such an extent that no Palestinians can live there.

There's no loathing of Israel on this thread. There's loathing for the behaviour of the Israeli government. The difference is huge.

I'm not sure on the answer, but the Israeli government know that they won't wipe out Hamas or it's ideology. Until occupation ends I don't think that the ideology has even a modicum of hope of being erased. Even then I'm struggling to see that it will end, and events like this past week (the actions of both sides) only amplify the ideology that exists on both sides. Fwiw, I think we haven't seen anything yet in terms of this conflict. It won't end well for Palestinians, or Gaza and the West Bank, and it's people.

Ditto. I get that they'd had enough, but what they did was large scale terrorism. Sure, they expected a response , but did they expect something on this scale? The denial of water and food? The forced exodus to South Gaza, and then in all likelihood over the border? In terms of motivation I think that they thought that others would draw themselves in and attack Israel. In reality I can't see that happening. On that, Hamas didn't read the room.

I'm not getting into a Corbyn chat, but the rest of it is spot on. I honestly don't think that Western governments, and their supportive media, have read the room in terms of public opinion.

Sorry Badger, well reminded.

This is a very passionate and honest article from a Canadian journalist. I couldn't agree more with this part: "The monstrous plan is as plain as Netanyahu’s wretched character: Be done with Gaza by erasing Gaza. Anyone, anywhere, in any forum who denies this fact is either a liar, blind – or willfully, happily, and comfortably both". https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/14/this-is-genocide

Yep. Too good a game for the QF. 30 odd phases at the end, but superb defence from NZ.

Bath

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