egg

Do you genuinely believe that Israel are attacking Gaza in an attempt to eradicate Hamas? Netanyahu said that they would turn Gaza into an island of rubble. It's an opportunity to destroy the land in Netanyahu's own words. Supposing you're correct though, do you believe that Hamas as a movement will disappear after this Israeli action? I think it's pretty obvious that it'll be the opposite.

Palestine did not behead babies. That was Hamas. Is bombing families in their homes really any better? Feels like a different type of evil to me.

Seems that she's made a unilateral decision that the Palestinian flag is now the Hamas flag. Tad daft of her.

Do you think that flattening Gaza, destroying mosques, homes, businesses, a university, etc, killing and maiming thousands of innocent civilians is a proportional response? Do you think it'll get the hostages back? Is depriving 2.3m people of fuel, energy and water until 150 hostages are returned a reasonable action? If the latter was the Israeli tactic, why flatten the country as well? As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the action in Gaza has nothing to do with eradication of Hamas - this will just breed Hamas support , and it's ideology. It's about levelling Gaza, and Netanyahu is delivering on his promise to turn Gaza into a "deserted island of rubble". It's a wholly disproportionate response.

I think that's pretty obvious. Both sides need their own state, to be left alone by the other, and to respect the others right to existence.

Indeed. There's no defence of Israel in the Gaza attacks. Is purely about revenge and demolition. Biden have them a hall pass to do wtf they like thou so they'll carry on. Two wrongs don't make a right etc.

The BBC didn't report. Sky did but misquoted Netanyahu. We get plenty of talk about Hamas not recognising Israel, but nothing about Israel wanting to obliterate Gaza despite them doing it in front of the world. The discussion needs balance, but the comments from some on here highlight that some believe this to be a one side at fault issue, presumably because that's what the media tell them.

That all ignores that Israel does not want Palestine to be a thing. It is Israel who have built settlements ignoring the UN's views on it. They don't allow Arabs to build land on the bit of land that they have left. They destroy the houses that are built. They grab land. They allow settlers to attack the Arabs. The Arabs have had it terribly for years. That should be undeniable. The Israeli behaviour has been disgraceful, and it's understandable that Arabs resist and fight their corner. What isn't understandable or acceptable is what Hamas have done. I can understand why Israel want Hamas gone but bombing the shit out of Gaza and wrecking the homes and lives of innocent civilians won't achieve anything positive. Indeed, the Gaza assault is about wiping it off the map - Netanyahu said the other day that he intends to turn it into a "deserted island of rubble". That's the place, not Hamas. As you say, there needs to be dialogue but I cannot accept your assessment that it's only the Arabs who need to alter their mindset. Their has to be change and movement on both sides.

7/7 was 7/7. That was different to this. I find it bewildering that anyone cannot acknowledge that the behaviour of the Israeli government towards Palestinians - settlements, supporting settler attacks, destruction of houses, denial of housing permits, shooting of civilians, etc - is wrong. It's odd that anyone cannot acknowledge that it's possible to criticise the behaviour of the Israeli government whilst being disgusted with the appalling actions of Hamas. What's interesting is some of the language used on this thread. People who make criticism both ways are being hit with the "equivalence" stick, seemingly in an attempt to suppress a view that both sides have done wrong. That's an extension of an issue that's always been there when discussing the Israel/Palestine issue - anti Zionist views have wrongly been deemed anti semitic and been shot down. Just criticism doesn't need a set of scales to assess the balance of blame, but even so, who's been most at fault doesn't detract from the fault of the other side. Both sides have been a disgrace, and Israel are not so naive as to think that they can destroy Hamas. They want to destroy as much of Gaza and it's infrastructure as they can. We all know that the Israeli response will only increase the size of the vicious circle. It's a sorry carry on. Whether a 2 state solution will now be possible I'm not sure, but the sad thing is that we kind of had one with Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem.

My recognising that both sides have behaved appallingly (albeit in different ways) is not me suggesting equivalence, or sympathy to the actions of Hamas - poor form of you to insinuate that. I've made it clear that I consider their actions appalling, but you know that.

Goal

What an odd comment. I agree that the Hamas attacks were an act of sheer evil. I've never suggested otherwise. What I have said is that you are wrong to suggest that there is only one bad side in this sorry situation. That's a statement of fact. What it isn't is a suggestion from me that Hamas behaviour is somehow justified, or that I'm suggesting that there is equivalence. It's possible to be disgusted with Hamas and recognise that Israel also behave appallingly.

The point made by whelk is that there's only one bad side in this. There isn't.

Imo any right minded person should accept that the Israeli government have acted disgracefully. Particularly as the UN have said so many times. Whilst that doesn't condone in any way what Hamas have done, it's ridiculous to say that only Hamas are the had guys. Both sides are a disgrace. I'll leave it there, but I'm happy that my view is the proper one.

What's embarrassing is intelligent people only seeing what they want to see. Israel have been a disgrace for years, surely you agree with that. Hamas have been a disgrace for years, and have taken it to a new and appalling level. I'll carry on looking at the full picture. I couldn't give a monkeys what your view is.

Both sides are. Don't let the hideous acts of Hamas kid you that the behaviour of the Israeli government, historically and currently, is acceptable.

American

None of that addresses the point that you were replying to, namely that Martin's way of playing is costing us points.

Do we know if we have managed to get him into our official EFL squad list? He wasn't in the original published list for some reason.

Yep. If Leeds were willing to pay similar money to us, there was never any realistic prospect if Swansea selling the lad to us.

It began Saturday. The disgraceful Hamas actions have given the Israeli government the opportunity to flatten Gaza and force it's people out. They've been told to leave (go where?) and Netanyahu has said he'll turn Gaza into an 'isolated desert' of 'rubble' (not that you'll find the BBC reporting that).

Hamas can't get any further than they've got, and their incursion will be squashed quickly enough. It's no war - the issue is how much punishment Israel choose to give Gaza/the West Bank, and whether they decide to occupy Gaza.

Tie

Yep. It's a massive own goal politically, but the whole thing looked doomed from the off. A G7 country unable to finish building a train line because they can't manage the budget, or figure out how to fund it ain't a great look.

None of the countries are rich - Paraguay, Uruguay, Morocco and Argentina are far from it. That said, 6 host countries from 3 continents is just weird.