SaintJackoInHurworth

I seem to remember some article a few years ago which tried to show that a new manager doesn't necessarily do any better than the the one they succeed. However, in order to show this they had to ignore the honeymoon period when the effect of having a new manager is to galvanise the squad for a short time. It is possible that that is what we are seeing in these other clubs. Nevertheless, even a honeymoon effect is better than the same old, same old of keeping this manager. Those extra 6-12+ points could be the difference between staying up and getting relegated.

To claim that we have a squad that is way weaker than we have had before is just plain making excuses for a rubbish/limited manager. OK, this is not the same squad that we had under Pochettino - in some ways it is weaker, in other ways stronger - but it is not much different than the squad that Claude Puel managed to get up to eighth. Only we now also have Lemina and Hoedt - both of whom are (or were) in my opinion good purchases and better than the alternatives: Hoedt is better than Yoshida or Stephens and Lemina is better than Davis and Hojbjerg (though I think Davis has always been a good player for us and Hojbjerg is now beginning to finally live up to some of the hopes we all had for him when he arrived). Of course, you could argue that now that we have sold VVD the squad is weaker, but that again ignores the fact that we have got to where we are with VVD until two weeks ago and that he was actually injured for half of last season. At the same time, I am not denying that we have lost some great players and that some of the players we have bought have yet to adequately replace the players that came before - but nevertheless, this is still a squad that a decent manager should be able to get up to the top half of the table without too much difficulty and with a full season of games in which to do it. In addition, each time we have sold a player for a lot of money we have generally used that to strengthen what used to be a squad with no depth, so that if a player gets injured we have players of sufficient quality to replace them that we should generally be able to minimise the effects of that (though, yes, there are still clearly weaknesses in the squad). So, let's avoid revisionism - Claude Puel was not the world's greatest manager but he did get this squad up to the top half of the table despite injuries and involvement in European competition and the League Cup. If he can do that, then this is certainly a squad that we should have been expecting to be able to get up to the top half. In short, the change that could have the biggest benefits in terms of how we fare for the rest of this season is a change of manager; other changes including the addition of a decent quality striker and centre back could also help that new manager to begin to restore our fortunes in the remainder of this season.

I've never called for a manager to be sacked before, but this guy needs to go imo. He seems pretty clueless about how to play football with a style that works in England. He only seems to have a clue about limiting the scoreline when playing the top sides whose style is much more what he would have been used to abroad. However, I am not among those who blame Les Reed - there has been too much good before this to blame him entirely. Yes, this has been a poor appointment, but there have been many other good appointments and purchases for which he deserves some credit. I also don't think you can blame the players - they are simply trying to implement the instructions they have been given by MoPe and Black (who also should go!). Redmond gave a very strong hint about that to Guardiola after the City game. The only player that deserves any significant blame is Van Dijk whose petulance has hung like a cloud over the club for far too long (though I still believe we need to hold out for the right money for him from the right club!)

I've never been one to call for a manager to be sacked and didn't think we should have sacked Puel, but I can't see this going any other way than for Pellegrino to be sacked. Puel had a weaker squad (no Lemina or Hoedt and only had Van Dijk and Gabbiadini for half a season each) yet he got us to Wembley and we still finished eighth. The biggest barrier to us sacking him is the question of who we bring in to replace him. I don't want to see Fat Sam, Hoddle or Pulis taking the reins; however, there may be other potential possibilities: Keegan - hadn't thought of him til I say the OP of this thread, but I don't think he would be a bad call at all - definitely would play an expansive attacking brand of football and would develop younger players. Koeman - I would not be averse to bringing him back, though I would be worried about our development of younger players. Monk - He has potential as a manager even though he has had some tough times recently. It might depend on who is put with him as he needs a good team around him. Dyche - Obviously... but I don't think he would leave Burnley to join Saints. Silva - Also, obviously, but again, I don't think he would leave them to join us! Michael Laudrup - Has done really well in football management for the most part and his approach would fit with the Southampton Way. Admittedly he had a bad run of form that led to him getting sacked by Swansea but I think that was not all his fault and to a large degree he was a victim of his own success in previous seasons. Chris Wilder - up and coming manager of Sheff Utd and former Saints trainee. Has had an up and up career in football management so far!

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but I haven't seen it... I see that Graham Potter who played for Saints briefly back in the Souness era has been achieving a fair level of success in football management in Sweden: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41902664 I wonder if/when Pellegrino is sacked we might consider an approach? Maybe he can at least match his playing record for Saints (maybe even double the length of his association with the club?!) Seriously, though, hats off to the guy for what he has achieved... and maybe at some stage he could be considered for a coaching job at the club (e.g. under 18s?)

* I would welcome Koeman over Pellegrino though I would make sure he is not given the power to spend millions on transfers as he has done at Everton and I would insist he is significantly involved in developing a good strategy for the development of youth - not one that forces him to play unready younger players but also not one in which younger players are largely ignored. * The only other former manager I would particularly welcome back would be Pochettino - though that is never going to happen... >> Pardew was great in League One but has never been able to discover that at Premier League level and when things go wrong he gets down on himself and everyone else and it all falls apart. >> Adkins was great at Championship level but didn't cut it in the Premier League. >> Pearson was also better in the lower divisions than in the Premier League. OK... actually I might possibly welcome wee Gordon Strachan back too...!

It was too early to get rid of Puel at the end of last season; it is currently too early to get rid of Pellegrino. However, you have to say that we seem to be worse under Pellegrino than under Puel at the moment so if we don't improve by the end of the season then you have to anticipate that he will have to go. If we do end up sacking Pellegrino then it is vital that we first identify who we are getting in and we must be absolutely sure that whoever we get in is going to be an improvement. It would be catastrophic to sack Pellegrino and then bring in someone who is even worse - as we seem to have done with replacing Puel with Pellegrino. Of course, one other consideration may be the current availability of Ronald Koeman. You would imagine that he wouldn't want to come back and we wouldn't want to bring him back, but who knows?! Personally I think we made a big mistake in the summer by acting too slowly and as a result not bringing in Marco Silva. If we had brought him in I think we would find ourselves in a much better position. Sadly, I currently fear that Pellegrino will not be able to turn it around and will be sacked at the end of the season. Who we bring in then I don't know - it is unlikely to be Tuchel, so it's hard to know. I certainly wouldn't want us to be looking at Hoddle, Allardyce, Pardew or any of the usual names that are linked (with the possible exception of Ranieri). I would have been interested in the Turkish coach we were linked with a couple of years ago but since returning from some time out of the game I'm not aware he has done much. Overall it is a big dilemma - not the simple decision that some seem to be suggesting.

Firstly, a disclaimer: I live up North so don't get to see Saints as often as I would like and have not seen a live match yet this season (just two pre-season matches against Augsburg and Sevilla) so I cannot claim to know better than those who have been to see us play. Nevertheless, I do find myself wondering if some of the comments on here are rather knee-jerk reactions to the disappointment of seeing us fail to win a match we would normally expect to win. Whether Pellegrino is failing to deliver or not I think it would be very difficult for the club to even contemplate sacking him just yet. I think there are a number of significant considerations that need to be taken into account: 1. We are only 5 points behind Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool. 2. We are above Everton, West Ham, West Brom and Leicester - all teams who have finished around us or above us in the last couple of years. 3. We rarely have a great start to the season - some of the last few seasons have seen us achieve better starts than we would normally expect. 4. The Van Dijk situation affected our start to the season and it will take time to deal with the aftermath of that. 5. Pellegrino has never managed in England before so needs time to adjust to the Premier League and the style of football of some English teams. 6. A number of players have been injured. 7. A number of players are suffering with low confidence going back to the Puel era and maybe even before. 8. We have had a number of interruptions to the season so far and have not yet had a long spell of stability for the squad. 9. The preferred option for a manager may well have been Thomas Tuchel but he ruled himself out of the running early on. 10. The other option for a manager was Frank De Boer. Would people have preferred we appointed him bearing in mind what has happened at Palace? 11. To those claiming we should have appointed an English manager rather than a foreign one, may I ask which English managers have made a huge success of management in England including taking teams to the Champions League or Europa League? And which of them have also developed young players and played an exciting brand of attacking football? Dyche and Howe aside most have struggled - and Howe is not doing so well this season so far! 12. As an extension of the above point, both Pochettino and Koeman were foreign managers and both achieved unprecedented success beyond what was expected of them. 13. For those wanting a manager with a record of success managing in the UK, the list of managers that we have had who may fit that bill includes Harry Redknapp, Paul Sturrock and Ian Branfoot. 14. One of our strikers has just managed to score two goals in a match, which could signal a change in fortunes and confidence - not really the time to be sacking our manager. I am not saying that I think Pellegrino is doing a great job - clearly we should be doing better than we are when we have arguably the best squad we have had for a couple of years - maybe potentially better than the squads managed by Koeman and Pochettino. What I am saying is that it is too early to think about sacking him yet.

I've always said that one day I would try to create a Fantasy Football team made of ex-Saints players supplemented by current Saints players up to the number limits for how many you can have from one club (the main Fantasy Football league has a limit of 3 players per team I believe). I've never quite got around to doing it though. If you were try to create a Fantasy football team in this way what would your team look like? I believe the following are all of the ex-Saints players playing in the Premier League: Goalkeepers: Gazzaniga (Spurs), Boruc (Bournemouth), Stekelenburg (Everton) Defenders: Cranie (Huddersfield), Shaw (Man Utd), Clyne (Liverpool), Martina (Everton), Lovren (Liverpool), Alderweireld (Spurs), Fonte (West Ham) Midfield: Wanyama (Spurs), Schneiderlin (Everton), Cork (Burnley), Surman (Bournemouth), Lallana (Liverpool), Mane (Liverpool), Antonio (West Ham), Oxlade-Chamberlain (Liverpool), Walcott (Arsenal), Puncheon (Crystal Palace), Dyer (Swansea) Strikers: Crouch (Stoke), Rodriguez (West Brom) Make a comment if there is anyone I have missed! Hopefully admins might amend my initial write up in that case!

I notice that for the last few minutes of the Palace game Pellegrino opted not just to bring on Van Dijk but to keep Hoedt and Yoshida on the pitch too. Does this give a clue as to where we might see our tactics change in coming weeks? Or at least might it be a clue as to what Pellegrino might try out against Man United next week? What would people think if we played five at the back? And if we did that how would the team be structured? With Lemina playing so well on Saturday does Romeu's place come under threat or does it free up the full backs to play a more attacking role resulting in one of the wide players being dropped and the other moving into the middle? I wonder whether we might see something like this... ..............................................Forster................................................ ......................Hoedt...............Van Dijk...............Yoshida..................... Cedric...................................................................................Bertrand ..................................Romeu..............Lemina.................................... ............................Davis.............................Tadic................................ ..........................................Gabbiadini...............................................

Well... I came on here looking for news that we have signed Hoedt but just found Toomer's bizarre comment about 'not so'. Maybe we should have a sweepstake as to its real meaning? I would guess at him implying rather scandalously that Biglia is known to his team mates as 'not so biglia' but I'm probably miles off and the actual meaning is instead something to do with Clasie not speaking in a Geordie dialect!

So if we don't shift Gardos but don't view him among the top four or five CBs does that mean he won't take up a place in the 25 but will still draw a wage and play occasionally for the reserves? Surely loaning him out to League 1 or Championship would be a better plan even if we have to contribute towards his wages!?!

So, a few questions... * If Hoedt signs will that be our last signing or will there be others? Some people have mentioned Vietto but from what others are saying that seems unlikely. * If Hoedt signs and assuming VvD stays, who from our current squad will miss out on a place in the 25? Will Gardos be the one to miss out? Or will this lead to the sale of Gazzaniga? * If we do sign another attacking player who else will miss out? Might that signal that we are going to sell Shane Long as some have suggested? Or again might this signal that both Gazzaniga and Gardos will be superfluous?

Oops! Actually of course since we don't have two lots of two players called Davis and Ward-Prowse it is only six players - which only serves to strengthen mny argument that we are not overloaded in midfield! LOL

If you want to include all midfield and attacking players then for completeness you need to also include at least Redmond, Austin, Sims, Long and Gallagher and you need to talk about seven different positions: Defensive midfield Box-to-Box Attacking midfield Right Wing Left Wing Striker Second striker ('in the hole') Alternatively, lets remove Gabbiadini, Tadic and Boufal from the reckoning and just look out the straight-forward midfield positions (i.e. ignore wingers and strikers). That leaves the following players to fill three midfield positions: Romeu, Lemina, Hojberg, JWP, Davis, Clasie, JWP, Davis - eight players for three tactical positions (or four if we were ever to pack the midfield and play two defensive midfielders and no wingers - though not advocating that particular set up!). On the basis that we have sought to have 2 or 3 players for every position I wouldn't say we suddenly have far too many midfielders at all just because we have signed one more! A few days ago many of us were arguing that we look incredibly short in the defensive midfield positions if Romeu were to get injured with only Clasie as direct back-up (in the sense of being a defensive midfielder). Compare it with the eight or so players in attacking positions, whether strikers, wingers or playing 'in the hole'. Or compare it with the ten players we have in defence (where many of us are also arguing we need to strengthen!): Left Back: Bertrand, McQueen, Targett Right Back: Cedric, Pied Centre back: VVD, Yoshida, Stephens, Bednarek, Gardos (NB You could of course also add in Flanagan, Jones and Wood, but equally you could add Valery and Hesketh as midfield options, so I am ignoring them for now - I don't it makes much difference) My point is that whether or not we keep Clasie is actually more about whether there is scope in the squad numbering system and I am arguing that while we do need to shed at least one player from the current squad I believe Gardos is more likely to be that player than Clasie.

Why does it have to be either of them that leave? It will depend on how many more players we sign, but surely the first players to make way are likely to be Gazzaniga (or possibly Taylor) and Florin Gardos. After those we might also loan out Gallagher. Surely Clasie is more likely to be picked than any of those three and certainly Gazzaniga and Gardos.

Targett has been given a new contract because he is playing well. He has benefitted from Bertrand's late return and then getting injured and he has played the best football we have seen from him. While there may remain questions about his defensive abilities he has been particularly good going forward. When we have Bertrand as first choice and then two up and coming young players as back up you can hardly expect us to be spending any money to strengthen in that position, especially bearing in mind the lack of spare places that we have in our squad. As for Ings and Barkley I have heard no credible rumours suggesting we are about to buy those two and I would be gutted if we wasted the small scope we have to develop our squad in bringing them in rather than a defensive/box-to-box midfielder and central defender. If we are to buy any attacking players they need to be better than what we already have and we only have the potential scope for one of them if we are to strengthen in those other two positions - and only if we are to omit two or three of our current squad players (eg Gazzaniga, Gardos and maybe one other e.g. Gallagher). Sent from my Fusion5 using Tapatalk

We will finish 6th, 7th or 8th, competing with Liverpool and Everton for those 3 places; we will be about ten points better than the team in ninth which will be West Ham or Palace. Liverpool will struggle defensively resulting in calls for them to meet whatever demands Saints have to get Van Dijk. We will benefit from playing a more pressing game with Hojbjerg particularly thriving from playing that way, though Boufal will not and will continue to struggle. Bournemouth will suffer some key injuries which will see them struggling against relegation alongside Burnley, Watford, Brighton and Huddersfield. Jack Stephens will establish himself alongside Virgil who will knuckle down and produce even better performances than last season, while Tadic will return to his best and improve on that to become our star performer. Sent from my Fusion5 using Tapatalk

I'm glad someone has picked up on this as it was certainly one of the issues in my mind when I started this thread. I actually think Hjobjerg is a better prospect there than Clasie. Whether he is the right player to provide that cover and whether that is the best way to develop his talent are other questions that need to be considered though too. I feel that we have a lot of general/'box-to-box' midfield players in Davis, Ward-Prowse, Clasie and Hjobjerg and if we can continue to develop the last three then that will be great; we shouldn't in that case need to buy others who are that type of player... Unless someone of the right age and greater ability should become available at the right cost (eg Ever Banega... highly unlikely!!) The big issue is definitely who can provide the cover for Romeu if he should become injured. The other issue is that those midfield players are not yet delivering enough in an attacking sense. I therefore agree that we need to find cover for Romeu at least plus cover for Van Dijk and if we can find someone of suitable ability a Schneiderlin-style box-to-box midfielder. To allow that sort of space in the squad I think we need to omit Taylor, Gazzaniga and Gardos from the final 25. Sent from my Fusion5 using Tapatalk

Cedric is only a good shout if he is first choice left back. Pied has the potential to challenge that though! Sent from my Fusion5 using Tapatalk

I've been thinking about our squad and the intention that we will have at least two in every position. When you look at the squad positions it makes interesting reading. Find my approximation below with apologies for times where I have mixed up right and left sided players... * Goalies - Forster, McCarthy, Taylor * Left back - Bertrand, McQueen, Targett * Right back - Pied, Cedric, Jones * Centre Back - Van Dijk, Yoshida, Wood * Centre Back - Stephens, Bednarek, Gardos * Defensive Midfield - Romeu, Hojbjerg * Midfield - Davis, Ward-Prowse, Clasie * Right Wing - Redmond, Sims * Left Wing - Tadic, Boufal, Hesketh * Striker - Austin, Long * Striker - Gabbiadini, Gallagher I recognise that these positions imply one particular tactical formation and I that at times we may play in a different tactical formation, but I hope nevertheless that it is helpful. Also, I've put Sims as right wing here, but personally I prefer him as a striker. Have I missed anyone? Does it throw any further light on where our squad is weak or strong? I think if we play a formation that is less based around wingers then the midfield is potentially lacking one or two players, though with this formation it is fine.

11 Transfer deadline day: Following the sale of Ryan Bertrand the club feel confident that Sam McQueen and Matt Targett are the future. Initially brilliant performances by McQueen justify the club's decision, but when he gets injured the club realise that Targett is still not yet ready for the first team and are forced to invest £6m, paying well over the odds, for 36 year old Patrice Evra from Marseille.

Mentioned again today in Huddersfield newspaper: http://www.examiner.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/huddersfield-town-transfer-rumours-southampton-13272162 It has also been mentioned here: http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2017/07/02/report-southampton-could-take-advantage-of-premier-league-rule-w/

I think it will be a tough ask for us to finish higher than eighth next season, even if Pellegrino has the desired effect. I am hopeful that we will see an improvement under Pellegrino - especially if we can keep our top players and maybe bring in a couple of extra players to further strengthen the squad/first team. Yet, that improvement may only be enough to close up some of the gap that opened up last season, rather than necessarily helping us to finish any higher. The problem is that the gap to the teams above us got a little too large last season and many of them seem to be working hard at improving their squads for the season ahead. The one thing that may help us however is that most of them will be competing in European competition this season so that could have the effect of putting pressure on their squad depth at times - especially if they suffer any problems with injuries. Looking at those teams though it is hard to see how we can do enough to catch up with and pass any of the seven teams that finished above us: * Chelsea - they were streets above us and everyone else last season. While the did poorly the season before, under Conte they look incredibly hard to beat. Even if they lose Costa, they still have huge resources of talented players including Eden Hazard and they are sure to find a quality player to replace him. * Tottenham - The Spuds may be set to lose Walker, but they have plenty of strength in depth and I have no doubt they will use the money from his sale to buy a good replacement and to strengthen their squad further. Even if they don't I can't see them falling back sufficiently for us to catch them. * Man City - You have to think that this season could well be the season that they come good, especially if they can finally sort our their fragile defence with good dealings in the transfer market. * Liverpool - They have maintained a steadily upwards trajectory over the past couple of seasons under Klopp and with continued high levels of transfer spending it seems likely that they should maintain that. Nevertheless, the return to European football this season could put extra pressure on their squad, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they could do less well in the league in the season ahead. If we are to catch anyone next season they could be one of the teams we might have an outside chance of catching. Yet, they have sufficient resources and strength in depth that this must remain unlikely. * Man Utd - They seem to be spending a lot this summer and Mourinho is a winner. They have certainly begun to look a lot better with him as manager than they have done since Ferguson retired. While I don't think it will be enough to make them genuine challengers for the title, I think it will mean that they should have the strength in depth to maintain at least Europa League qualification and possibly to compete for a Champions League spot. It would take a few catastrophes like in Mourinho's last season at Chelsea for them to be catchable. * Arsenal - While our expectations of them have slowly descended in recent seasons and there are big questions about whether they can cut it among the big boys any more, they seem to be looking at strengthening their squad more this year than they have done for a while. Whether that will be successful for them remains to be seen, but I still think it would take a much bigger drop in Arsenal's squad ability for them to be quite catchable yet. The fact that they are in the Europa League this season and not the Champions League could work either way and is probably not a significant factor. Nevertheless, if they fail to make the necessary improvements to their squad or if the players they get in are not good enough, then we have shown in recent years that we can match them on the field, so there is some vague outside possibility that we could catch them. It remains very unlikely though. * Everton - It is a bit shocking to see the amount that Everton are spending this summer. While they may be about to lose Lukaku it would seem more likely that they will push on this season rather than fall back under the pressure of European football. Nevertheless, if the new additions struggle to settle and if they are faced by an injury crisis due to playing so many fixtures there is the possibility that they could still be catchable. So, while it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Everton, Arsenal, Man Utd or Liverpool could be caught, it would seem highly, highly unlikely. The bigger challenge for Pellegrino will be to close the gap on those teams and to assert Saints as part of a distinct top eight rather than the top team of the bottom 13. Hopefully he can also prioritise continued commitment to doing well in the cups. What does anyone else think?

OK... slight correction... Xavi Tamarit is the author of a book about "Tactical Periodization" which is the name given to the coaching methods used by Jose Mourinho and others. He didn't co-author the original training manual. Apologies for any misunderstanding! Tamarit's book is called "What is Tactical Periodization?" Nevertheless, the following article describes him as a "keen proponent" of this approach: https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/lowdown-on-new-southampton-coach-mauricio-pellegrino Monk - has that dealt with whatever caused your unexplained outburst?