sadoldgit

What if this forum didn't exist? You would have to go out and find people to p*ss off instead of staying in the warm and doing it. What if we had won the American War of Independence? What if my auntie had balls?

Yes.

Are you and Sour Mash one in the same person? In fact I think both of you are C B Fry. Read the article again.

Why so pedantic? My point was it could have been which is borne out in the article. Lighten up mate, it is New Year's Eve!

As are a great many of the population. We Brits are also mostly a bunch of mongrels.

Marcus

Are you saying that we cant form an opinion about America and Americans because we don't know them all? Surely we base our perceptions on what we think we know? I agree that there are many smart and well informed Americans. The issue with America is that it is the most powerful nation on the planet at the moment and their foreign policies affect us all - for better or worse. I don't know if there is any truth in the rumour that George W Bush did not have a passport at the time he was elected as President but if so I find it more than worrying that the man with his finger on the button hadn't been out of his own back yard. I would also argue that for such a large and powerful nation, they have managed to elect some very poor people to lead them. It must bother you that the role call of Presidents includes the like of Regan and Bush as well as Lincoln and Kennedy?

Bloody hell, is that all? Basically says you are now playing for us and this is what we will pay you. My contract with the Civil Service looks like War & Peace in comparison!

Not sure what your point is?

In the 1830s, a story began to circulate in the US press that German had almost became the official language of the newly founded US—the motion apparently defeated by only one vote. Actually, to this day, America does not have an official language—not even English. The story— now known as the Muehlenberg legend—was mostly fabrication, but it did have a kernel of truth. In 1794 a group of German-speaking immigrants petitioned the House of Representatives to have laws and regulations published in both English and German to facilitate integration and political participation. It was this request that was rejected 42 to 41. Some say that ironically, the decisive vote was cast by Fredrik Augustus Muhlenberg, the first German-American Speaker of the House—though records show that he diplomatically abstained. But what if there was an official language, and what if back in 1795 the US had said wir sprechen Deutsch? The dealings of the young American republic with Europe during the first half of the 19th century were shaped mainly by negotiating their position vis-à-vis France and in relation to Britain. Prussia had a trade agreements with the US but that was about it and the Habsburg empire was looking east rather than west. There was no real German dimension to the Louisiana Purchase nor to the War of 1812—how could there have been, when Germany was not even a unified state yet? In fact, during the first half of the 19th century, by speaking German, America would probably have changed the history of central Europe more drastically than its own development at that time. After all, in the movement for unity and liberalisation, sparked by the Napoleonic Wars and culminating in the 1848 revolutions, language was a crucial ingredient for the German lands. A German-speaking republic across the sea could have provided a powerful point of reference in political debates as well as in questions of national identity. Back in America tensions were mounting over slavery and the rift between north and south was growing deeper around the middle of the century. Had German been the official language, the large German communities of the midwest could have turned their weight into political presence and a third regional block might have diffused the situation. Furthermore, particularly in Missouri and Kansas, the strong anti-slavery sentiment among German immigrants could have made a difference during the late 1850s. These areas saw the prelude to the Civil War with violence erupting over the question of whether slavery should be allowed in states that newly joined the union. But German immigrants were not able to make their voices heard nationally—partly because their language barriers limited them to local politics. After the Civil War and with German unification in 1871, the two nations eyed each other across the Atlantic with a mixture of rivalry and mutual fascination as they both strove to carve out their position on the world stage against the mighty British empire. However, it is unlikely that a common language would have softened this competition. The 20th century saw the German language become closely linked to cruelty. This started in the First World War and the US passed legislation to ban German classes from schools and German music from concert halls. The anti-German sentiment was so strong at this time that dachshunds were stoned in the streets of New York. Therefore, had German been America’s national language, it might well have been abolished in 1917. On the other hand, Germany’s propaganda effort to keep America neutral could have been more effective had it been accessible to the masses. Contemporaries complained about what they saw as an unjust advantage for British propaganda due to language. Had the US stayed out of the Great War, the effect on developments in Europe and the world throughout the 20th century and beyond would have been enormous. Today, 50m Americans claim German descent. Sometimes there is German heritage in what seems most American. Walt Disney draws heavily on German fairytales and numerous US-state hymns use German melodies. The pretzel and the hot dog and the hamburger are German imports, as are Santa Claus and the Christmas tree. Nineteenth-century German immigrants brought gymnastics clubs, kindergartens and the PhD. When Jewish-Germans and other German emigrants were forced out of their country during the Second World War, they too left their mark on American culture and society. Philosophers of language argue that our mother tongue affects the way we see and understand the world. Would American pragmatism have worked in German? What about the particularities in the Anglo-American interpretation of freedom, liberty, republicanism or even culture? Could the world deal with a largely German-speaking movie and music business? And finally, could the “awful German language” (Mark Twain) ever be a lingua franca like English is today? Language has always been a key feature of German nationalism and imperialism. If the US had chosen German as their official language, from early on, it would have ideologically strengthened Germany’s position in Europe—for better or worse.

Most of the people I know (and I appreciate it is a small sample) have been to the Americas, Australia and Asia as well as many countries from Europe. When I was last in America I was better travelled in America than many of the Americans I met let alone the rest of the world. There is an old saying, travel broadens the mind.

Maybe a case of too much too quickly, although as it was colonised by millions of Europeans maybe we have something to answer for? On another note, apparently the vote was very close as to whether the national language of the US would be English or German. Perhaps we would be living in a very different world now if the vote had been for German!!!

I was indeed but appreciate that with your experience Verbal it was not in the best taste. I used to know people who worked in a kiosk at South Hampstead tube and would regularly tell me tales of how some poor people had to clear up the mess after a track suicide. I also went to school with someone who climbed over the train roof on a BR service only to be hit by a bridge. His friends ran back up the track from the next station and what they found was not pretty.

I particularly like the jumping in front of a train way to go. Not only is it quick for the victim but causes a massive mess and inconvenience for others to deal with once you are gone. A great f*ck you way to go!

Great clip! I was in Washington state at the time of the Iraqi war. I took my friends kid to get some ice cream. While waiting in line the guy behind me heard my accent and engaged me in conversation. He hated the French because they had bailed out but loved us Brits as we were "in this together." He was with his boy who I'd say was no older than 10. They had just been out to buy some new ammo for their guns. When I asked why he said with a very straight face that if the Iraqis landed in this very small town a few miles SE of Seattle, then he was "going to take them out." I assume he meant kill them rather than take them for ice cream. I toyed with the idea of trying to explain to him that the chance of on Iraqi invasion of the NW seaboard of the USA was highly unlikely but in the end thought better of it and just said, "cool." He then wanted us to go to the parking lot to look at his guns and ammo. I thanked him but declined his kind invitation and wished him and his boy well. I relayed this story to the people I was staying with and their friends and they all laughed but then admitted that they were all armed with guns and ammo at home. Still, it worked though clearly because up to now the ragheads have not invaded the Seattle suburbs!

The famous line that the gun nuts trot out whenever guns are involved in a tragedy is "Guns don't kill people. People do.". That statement sits on very shaky ground in light of this incident. That line used to come up at the dinner parties I was invited to in sleepy Sumner near Seattle. I used to respond that it is much easier for people with guns to kill other people. I also used to point out that there is no threat from marauding native Americans escaping the reservations and attacking them any more but they seem fixated with their right to bear arms. One very pleasant lady explained that she had here pappy's old rifle in the attic and wouldn't give it up without a fight. Not that she ever used it for anything of course. One of the problems with Americans I have found is the fact that very few of them have travelled extensively - some even not outside their own stateline. I brought a girlfriend over about 10 years ago and suggested whist she was here that we also visited Paris via the Eurotunnel. She had no idea where Paris, France was in relation to the UK (or the UK in relation to anywhere else other than "it was a hell of a long way from Seattle." America is still a relatively young country by European standards and gained superpower status very quickly. There is still a Wild West approach to many situations - ride into town, shoot it up, ride out again. My uncle fought with the 8th Army in Italy and said they were more worried about the American artillery than they were about facing the Axis troops. I have had some lovely trips to the States and made some good friends there. I nearly ended up living there 10 years ago. Like someone said I mostly felt safe there (apart from one time when I found myself in Central Park after dark) and it has a lot going for it. What does worry me though is that it allows complete fruitcakes to arm themselves to the teeth with all kinds of very dangerous weapons and that supposedly very intelligent people argue that these people have a perfect right to own those weapons. It is far easier to kill someone with a gun than with say, a knife. Heck, even a 2 year old could do it!

JRod was far from the finished article when he arrived here but her certainly improved.

A few years ago I spent some time in Seattle. You could buy a gun in a supermarket. Whilst dropping off my friends kids at school there was a sign at school that said no guns beyond this point. WTF?

What is wrong with America is that it is full of Americans and their right to bear arms. Sadly many of them seem to think that this gives them the right to shoot anybody they like. I am sure if Charlton Heston was still alive he would insist that the 2 year old had a right to bear arms.

I suppose a duck is out of the question?

Lets hope that Roma or Lazio aren't interested in him too then

Echo says we are linked in a £12m move for Rhodes.

I know that Pardew isn't everyone's cup of tea but I think he did a great job for us and laid the foundations of the team that got us where we are today. Good luck to him at Palace, he will need it.

Loving the reruns of Games of Thrones at the moment which makes more sense to me the second time round as there is so much going on and I hadn't read the books. Last night was one of the most awesome bits of TV history for me - to lose so many main characters in one event is something you don't get but GoT never had a problem with offing a central character as Sean Bean can testify and that episode is TV gold. GoT and The Sopranos have got to be two of the best series ever. You know nothing, Jon Snow.....

Thanks Batman!