4-3-3 to 4-4-2 transition

[Saint Fan CaM]

If AP decides to start with Connolly rather than bring him on as a super-sub (and therefore go 4-4-2), who should he replace? With his current form I cannot for one minute believe Lallana will go. And if that's the case, then I think Papa provides good balance on the right, so he shouldn't go. So that leaves us with central midfield. I cannot believe that Hammond will go - he is having a rich vein of form for us now and is a big presence in midfield.

 

So that leaves Wotton or Schneiderlin. Difficult call really given that Wotton seems to have recovered some composure - at the moment it seems that despite his better skill, Schneiderlin is perhaps a little less consistent and not as able to break down an opposition attack, so perhaps he should give way? :confused:

[Window Cleaner]

If AP decides to start with Connolly rather than bring him on as a super-sub (and therefore go 4-4-2), who should he replace? With his current form I cannot for one minute believe Lallana will go. And if that's the case, then I think Papa provides good balance on the right, so he shouldn't go. So that leaves us with central midfield. I cannot believe that Hammond will go - he is having a rich vein of form for us now and is a big presence in midfield.

 

So that leaves Wotton or Schneiderlin. Difficult call really given that Wotton seems to have recovered some composure - at the moment it seems that despite his better skill, Schneiderlin is perhaps a little less consistent and not as able to break down an opposition attack, so perhaps he should give way? :confused:

 

And I keep wondering why I keep hearing rumours that Morgan hates it at SMS and can't wait to move on. 70% of the fans just don't appreciate him because he is just too cultured for them.Why even Gillett was estimated to be better because he runs around like a headless chicken.IF Connolly starts then either Lallana or Waigo will make way for him, with the latter being more probable.It's about balance.

[Saint Fan CaM]

And I keep wondering why I keep hearing rumours that Morgan hates it at SMS and can't wait to move on. 70% of the fans just don't appreciate him because he is just too cultured for them.Why even Gillett was estimated to be better because he runs around like a headless chicken.IF Connolly starts then either Lallana or Waigo will make way for him, with the latter being more probable.It's about balance.

 

To be clear, I was NOT criticising MS atall so there's no need for the "'I'm a better fan" snidy comment. The question posed was who should be left out, given that everyone appears to be performing pretty well. You think that leaving out Papa will retain balance - I disagree - whenever there are two frontmen Lallana seems to lose his way, so Papa provides Lallana's balance and that's something Connolly will not be able to do in quite the same way, if atall IMO.

 

PS: I think your rumours of Morgan hating it here because 70% of fans don't appreciate him are complete and utter rubbish. Where did THAT come from?!?!?

[Matthew Le God]

IF Connolly starts then either Lallana or Waigo will make way for him, with the latter being more probable.It's about balance.

 

How would that be balanced?

[St Will]

To be clear, I was NOT criticising MS atall so there's no need for the "'I'm a better fan" snidy comment. The question posed was who should be left out, given that everyone appears to be performing pretty well. You think that leaving out Papa will retain balance - I disagree - whenever there are two frontmen Lallana seems to lose his way, so Papa provides Lallana's balance and that's something Connolly will not be able to do in quite the same way, if atall IMO.

 

PS: I think your rumours of Morgan hating it here because 70% of fans don't appreciate him are complete and utter rubbish. Where did THAT come from?!?!?

 

There is no such word as atall. It's at all.

HTH

[Window Cleaner]

To be clear, I was NOT criticising MS atall so there's no need for the "'I'm a better fan" snidy comment. The question posed was who should be left out, given that everyone appears to be performing pretty well. You think that leaving out Papa will retain balance - I disagree - whenever there are two frontmen Lallana seems to lose his way, so Papa provides Lallana's balance and that's something Connolly will not be able to do in quite the same way, if atall IMO.

 

PS: I think your rumours of Morgan hating it here because 70% of fans don't appreciate him are complete and utter rubbish. Where did THAT come from?!?!?

 

People that know him?? I've explained it before,won't go over it again.

[derry]

We didn't start scoring until Waigo came in on the right and with his pace opened things up. If Waigo is left out it won't matter a monkey's who else plays, because our lack of pace will cause a reversion to the narrow hit Lambert and hope scenario of the first nine matches, allowing the opposition to compact the defence, cause a static midfield and crowd us out.

[Professor]

We didn't start scoring until Waigo came in on the right and with his pace opened things up. If Waigo is left out it won't matter a monkey's who else plays, because our lack of pace will cause a reversion to the narrow hit Lambert and hope scenario of the first nine matches, allowing the opposition to compact the defence, cause a static midfield and crowd us out.

But it wouldn't be a return to what the side was before because the extra threat of Connolly would bolster the midfield play, putting more attacking pressure on the opponents and easing the defensive pressure on us. Reluctantly, as we can't play 12, it would have to be Wotton for me as I think Morgan edges it over him but its a close call.

[Clifford Nelson]

Conolly will hardly take a wide role, so I imagine Lallana and Waigo are both very safe. Like when he came on against Oldham AP will sacrifice a CM, which looks like Morgan or Wotton. With the massive success we've had with 4-3-3/4-5-1 I don't know why we should be in a terrible hurry to get back to 4-4-2. For some people it seems to be some conviction close to the religious kind. When did anyone see Saints produce the kind of entertaining football we've seen since the Bristol game?

[SaintDonkey]

I don't think we could seamlessly switch to a 4-4-2. Both Waigo and Lallana are too attack minded to be wingers in that formation so we need the extra man covering in midfield when they're coming into the box to support Lambert.

 

When we went 4-4-2 against Oldham Papa had already gone off for the more orthodox wide man Antonio. With Lallana on the left it was a no brainer to sacrifice the more creative Morgan instead of the more defensive Wotton when Connolly came on. However if Mills had already replaced Lallana at that point I think it would have been the other way round.

[ManorHouseSaint]

How people can put Schneiderlin and Wotton in the same sentence is beyond me...Wotton is perhaps one of the worst players I have ever seen pull on the red and white. (and before people start answering back with the scape goat theory, to me that is redundant. I just don't think he is very good). He might get stuck in and all that. But he is an awful footballer. Morgan can play either offensively or defensively. Whatever formation you play, Morgan has to be in ahead of Wotton. To me it is a no brainer.

[derry]

But it wouldn't be a return to what the side was before because the extra threat of Connolly would bolster the midfield play, putting more attacking pressure on the opponents and easing the defensive pressure on us. Reluctantly, as we can't play 12, it would have to be Wotton for me as I think Morgan edges it over him but its a close call.

 

I would be surprised if Pardew changes the side/formation that has won three league games on the trot. However if Connolly starts scoring regularly as a substitute and Lallana doesn't or gets injured then there will be a pressure to include him and go 4-4-2.

 

Unless Waigo falls out with Pardew he won't be left out. It will be a choice in midfield, I would go for Schneiderlin with Hammond but I suspect it will be Wotton.

 

If Lallana provided width down the left touchline then drifted in outside the far post for play down our right it would give us more solidity on the left.

 

I personally think Wotton doesn't do much in the middle, a few headers, uninspiring passing, no attempt to pick up anybody, just floating around and gesticulating.

[Saint Fan CaM]

People that know him?? I've explained it before,won't go over it again.

 

 

Hey, I am not in a position to question whether you have some form of direct or indirect contact with MS - the thing I cannot understand is where you got 70% from! If this is a guess, then it might be useful to say so rather than dressing it up as fact. As said, I cannot believe for one minute that 70% of Saints fans have no time for Schneiderlin - 7% perhaps - but whatever, if that makes a player hate the club then perhaps he's not mature enough to take centre stage and AP should be shipping him out?

[Saint Fan CaM]

In terms of the Wotton versus Schneiderlin debate, the essentials might be summed up as...

 

Wotton : Provides solid, no-nonsense defensive duty and breaks oppo play up, but offers less in the way of positive, attractive offensive play.

 

Schneiderlin : Provides a degree of defensive duty alongside positive, accurate passing, but is not a threatening physical presence and tends to go in for rash challenges due to his lesser experience.

 

With Connolly up front, whose attributes would servce the team more? It's a real dilemna because both of them offer benefits. Perhaps its a case of who would complement Hammond more? Incidentally, my take on the undercurrent to AP's recent comments are that he is readying Connolly for 4-4-2 action possibly at home.

 

Lastly, is it easier for us to go from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 or vice versa do you think?

[brmbrm]

And I keep wondering why I keep hearing rumours that Morgan hates it at SMS and can't wait to move on. 70% of the fans just don't appreciate him because he is just too cultured for them.Why even Gillett was estimated to be better because he runs around like a headless chicken.IF Connolly starts then either Lallana or Waigo will make way for him, with the latter being more probable.It's about balance.

 

 

Please use the button in future, WC.

[Thedelldays]

Morgan is miles better than wotton. And he is still a teenager

 

I like wotton around the squad. He is a captain, a winner and experienced.

 

But Morgan is by far a better player

[Clifford Nelson]

How people can put Schneiderlin and Wotton in the same sentence is beyond me...Wotton is perhaps one of the worst players I have ever seen pull on the red and white. (and before people start answering back with the scape goat theory, to me that is redundant. I just don't think he is very good). He might get stuck in and all that. But he is an awful footballer. Morgan can play either offensively or defensively. Whatever formation you play, Morgan has to be in ahead of Wotton. To me it is a no brainer.

 

Your post is silly! The issue was about whether AP would take an offensive or a defensive CM off to leave room for Conolly, not a 'good' or 'bad' player. For ... sake!

[Clifford Nelson]

In terms of the Wotton versus Schneiderlin debate, the essentials might be summed up as...

 

Wotton : Provides solid, no-nonsense defensive duty and breaks oppo play up, but offers less in the way of positive, attractive offensive play.

 

Schneiderlin : Provides a degree of defensive duty alongside positive, accurate passing, but is not a threatening physical presence and tends to go in for rash challenges due to his lesser experience.

 

With Connolly up front, whose attributes would servce the team more? It's a real dilemna because both of them offer benefits. Perhaps its a case of who would complement Hammond more? Incidentally, my take on the undercurrent to AP's recent comments are that he is readying Connolly for 4-4-2 action possibly at home.

 

Lastly, is it easier for us to go from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 or vice versa do you think?

 

It's a bit of a pity, don't you think, that british forwards seems to be so unadaptable so that they can't fit into more than one system. Or is this a dis-service to Conolly. Maybe he could fit into a 4-3-3 as well if he was asked. We know what he can do when fit and on form in a 4-4-2, but has anybody ever asked him to fit into something else?

[Clifford Nelson]

Morgan is miles better than wotton. And he is still a teenager

 

I like wotton around the squad. He is a captain, a winner and experienced.

 

But Morgan is by far a better player

 

Absolutely right, but he is also a completely different player. What we haven't got in the squad is somebody else who can play the role of a defensive CM. I think that the reason that many of us questioned Morgan's abilities was that he was played out of position. He is not a defensive player, and shines when some of that responsibility is taken off him.

 

What we need next is to recruit a younger player who can do what we're asking of Wotton, but better, and in the meantime let's be grateful to the old man for putting his heart and soul into the cause whilst getting mainly derision from the fans. He doesn't deserve it.

[Andy_Porter]

We won't switch to 442. It's pretty simple.

[derry]

Absolutely right, but he is also a completely different player. What we haven't got in the squad is somebody else who can play the role of a defensive CM. I think that the reason that many of us questioned Morgan's abilities was that he was played out of position. He is not a defensive player, and shines when some of that responsibility is taken off him.

 

What we need next is to recruit a younger player who can do what we're asking of Wotton, but better, and in the meantime let's be grateful to the old man for putting his heart and soul into the cause whilst getting mainly derision from the fans. He doesn't deserve it.

 

I don't see Wotton as the answer to a holding midfielder. He has his limitations but he is a man who gives 100%, that deserves respect.

 

I don't see a holding midfielder as vital. I prefer one of the midfielders to cover the one that goes forward.

 

I prefer 4-4-2 but if another formation works and suits the players that is the way to go. Shoehorning players into rigid systems is counter productive. The best way is to accommodate the strengths and weaknesses of the players and play whatever provides the best teamplay and results.

 

Even a wide left midfielder of 3 in the middle complemented by a wide right attacker like Waigo can be seen as 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 but who cares if it suits the players.

[derry]

We won't switch to 442. It's pretty simple.

 

If Pardew decides that Lambert, Connolly, Waigo and Lallana all play it will be almost certainly be 4-4-2.

 

In any event 4-4-2 is Pardew's plan B. Torquay second half, certainly the last 15 mins at Oldham were 4-4-2.

[CB Fry]

We won't switch to 442. It's pretty simple.

 

 

I think we'll have to.

 

Connolly is far too good for this division so I doubt Pardew brought him in to sit on the bench. His cameo against Oldham was superb.

 

It's a bit of an England Manager situation - we have a decent crop of players, and we have a system that has worked recently, but we now have a world class* player we have to fit in and the system will have to change. But it will work.

 

The Lambert/Connolly combination is just too good to ignore - they can rip this league apart.

Edited 22 October, 2009 by CB Fry
*world class as in - better than the league he is in. Not truly world class, of course.

[Andy_Porter]

I think we'll have to.

 

Connolly is far too good for this division so I doubt Pardew brought him in to sit on the bench. His cameo against Oldham was superb.

 

It's a bit of an England Manager situation - we have a decent crop of players, and we have a system that has worked recently, but we now have a world class* player we have to fit in and the system will have to change. But it will work.

 

The Lambert/Connolly combination is just too good to ignore - they can rip this league apart.

 

I think far too good for this division is pushing it somewhat, he's obvious a good player and a bit of a coup but I do think at least for a while 4-5-1 will be the way forward. We can't rush or expect too much from Connolly too soon, he probably won't be at full fitness untill after Christmas imo.

 

Maybe 4-5-1 away from home and against the better sides at home and a straight 4-4-2 against the bottom half teams at home will how it works out.

 

Either way it's nice to have options and a manager who knows more than one system. I won't be complaining how ever we line up, I just think it will be 4-5-1 for a while yet.

[SaintDonkey]

We won't switch to 442. It's pretty simple.

 

If Lallana is injured (as intimated in the training session thread) we might yet see it on saturday.

[CB Fry]

I think far too good for this division is pushing it somewhat, he's obvious a good player and a bit of a coup but I do think at least for a while 4-5-1 will be the way forward. We can't rush or expect too much from Connolly too soon, he probably won't be at full fitness untill after Christmas imo.

 

Maybe 4-5-1 away from home and against the better sides at home and a straight 4-4-2 against the bottom half teams at home will how it works out.

 

Either way it's nice to have options and a manager who knows more than one system. I won't be complaining how ever we line up, I just think it will be 4-5-1 for a while yet.

 

 

Agree with that - Connolly will probably need a few more weeks as a supersub before he is fully fit.

 

But having options is fantastic - we suddenly have strength and depth of squad.

[paulwantsapint]

Is it possible to play 3 5 2 / 3 3 4

KD

Trottman Jaidi Harding

Wotton

Papa Hammond Morgan Lallana

Rickie Connoly

 

Even if only when chasing a result

[John B]

Well I still think 4 4 2 is the best formation at home

 

 

But against most teams any formation will probably do;)

[hutch]

It ain't broke.

 

Don't fix it.

[Matthew Le God]

It ain't broke.

 

Don't fix it.

 

Well all 3 goals for Saints today came from 442

[hutch]

The OP was about starting 4-4-2

 

We haven't done that in any of the last 4 games we won. The change in formation half way through the game might be contributing to the result.

 

Whatever it is, I like it, so stick with it.

[John B]

The OP was about starting 4-4-2

 

We haven't done that in any of the last 4 games we won. The change in formation half way through the game might be contributing to the result.

 

Whatever it is, I like it, so stick with it.

 

Yes Good Point

 

But who would you start the next game with?

[hutch]

The same 11 we started the last 2 games with.

 

But what do I know. I'm not the manager, and don't profess to know anything about football management, so I suppose my real answer is whatever 11 AP thinks are most likely to win the game for us.

[John B]

The same 11 we started the last 2 games with.

 

But what do I know. I'm not the manager, and don't profess to know anything about football management, so I suppose my real answer is whatever 11 AP thinks are most likely to win the game for us.

 

Just want to see the team evolve and get better and better

Edited 24 October, 2009 by John B

[captainchris]

And I keep wondering why I keep hearing rumours that Morgan hates it at SMS and can't wait to move on. 70% of the fans just don't appreciate him because he is just too cultured for them.Why even Gillett was estimated to be better because he runs around like a headless chicken.IF Connolly starts then either Lallana or Waigo will make way for him, with the latter being more probable.It's about balance.

 

Waigo is plainly not ready for the first team yet and will probably be replaced by Antonio anyway as first choice. If Connoly was to start then it is one of Hammond or as today Wotton who would have to go and I don't think many people would disagree with Wotton stepping aside.......