Is it because I is white?

[hamster]

Just saw the report on BBC South news that says that in Southampton whhite people are about 7 times less likely to be subjected to the archaic 'Stop and Search' laws than non-whites.

 

Clearly not effective and leaves no doubt that the 'force' is well behind the times. i wouldn't necesarily accuse them of institutionalised racism, but come on, wtf are they playing at.

 

Hope this is not too controversial for the LOUNGE.

 

Thoughts?

[Weston Super Saint]

Thoughts....

 

OK - with respect, I am NOT posting anything racist or controversial, just asking for facts here....

 

Can someone please post the 'statistics' or 'facts' whichever is more readily available, as to the colour, race or creed of ALL people arrested AND convicted of crimes that could reasonably have been prevented had they been 'stopped and searched' beforehand?

 

If not, I guess the argument for or against institutional racism in the police force is a moot point.

[hamster]

/\

apparently those forces who use 'Stop and Searcg' as a major tool in their crime prevention/solving strategies are way behing those that use 'intelligence' based tac-tics, and it is a tac-tic no matter how they dress it up imho.

 

Source? It's out her and I shall try to find the BBC link in a mo.

[nathan]

Thoughts....

 

OK - with respect, I am NOT posting anything racist or controversial, just asking for facts here....

 

Can someone please post the 'statistics' or 'facts' whichever is more readily available, as to the colour, race or creed of ALL people arrested AND convicted of crimes that could reasonably have been prevented had they been 'stopped and searched' beforehand?

 

If not, I guess the argument for or against institutional racism in the police force is a moot point.

 

I'd be interested in this stat as well. If twice as many ethnic minorities are stopped, but they commit twice as many crimes that could have been prevented by stop and search then surely it's justified? I honestly don't have any idea what the numbers would be, but I would doubt that there are any 'publically' available stats on this.

[hamster]

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/warning-from-commission-over-disproportionate-use-of-stop-and-search-by-police/

 

i think it has come from this report.

[St Landrew]

Tbh hamster, I thought it was common knowledge that non-whites are far more likely to be stopped and searched by police.

[chrisobee]

Tbh hamster, I thought it was common knowledge that non-whites are far more likely to be stopped and searched by police.

 

TBH it clearly is common knowledge that non whites are far more likely to be stopped but the question is why and is it justified?

Unfortunately I suspect the ever growing need for political correctness prevents Police forces going into detail as to the ratio between stop and search and the resulting prosecutions which arise. In relation to the point made by Nathan there must be stats available ( aren't there stats for everything these days!) and I see no reason why they should not be public knowledge, indeed I believe we have a right to know. However, the absence, as far as I'm aware, of these stats in the public domain might lead someone more cynical than me to believe the stats may reveal that the disproportionate amount of non whites who are stopped and searched is not justifiable. The report quoted by hamster ( http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/warning-from-commission-over-disproportionate-use-of-stop-and-search-by-police/ ) seems to me at least to indicate that stop and search is on the whole used incorrectly and as quite rightly stated this is likely to be self defeating. However, I feel you need to try to read between the lines to draw proper conclusions whereas simply publishing the stats showing how many of those who are stopped and searched are found to have committed a crime is a far more accurate and easier guide to the issue.

[Kev]

Most police forces in England and Wales still unfairly target black and Asian people in their use of stop and search powers, the equality watchdog has said.

 

The Equality and Human Rights Commission said it could not rule out legal action against some forces.

 

Its research found black people were at least six times more likely and Asian people around twice as likely to be stopped and searched as white people.

 

The Home Office acknowledged that there were "improvements still needed".

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8567528.stm

[Gingeletiss]

Thoughts....

 

OK - with respect, I am NOT posting anything racist or controversial, just asking for facts here....

 

Can someone please post the 'statistics' or 'facts' whichever is more readily available, as to the colour, race or creed of ALL people arrested AND convicted of crimes that could reasonably have been prevented had they been 'stopped and searched' beforehand?

 

If not, I guess the argument for or against institutional racism in the police force is a moot point.

 

I spoke to an ex assistant Chief Constable about this, some ten years ago. He told me then, that the proportion of young Blacks committing 'minor' crimes, was significantly higher than young Whites. Assaults and Rapes were high on that list. PC gone made IMO, if the police know what creed or colour commit 'street' crime, then they are the ones who should be stopped.

 

Hamster, watch more news mate, re-adjust your political thinking;)

[JustMike]

Most police forces in England and Wales still unfairly target black and Asian people in their use of stop and search powers, the equality watchdog has said.

 

The Equality and Human Rights Commission said it could not rule out legal action against some forces.

 

Its research found black people were at least six times more likely and Asian people around twice as likely to be stopped and searched as white people.

 

The Home Office acknowledged that there were "improvements still needed".

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8567528.stm

 

doesnt go on to say..."of which X% were arrested" surely thats the stat that would show this "research" for what it is?

[Fowllyd]

I spoke to an ex assistant Chief Constable about this, some ten years ago. He told me then, that the proportion of young Blacks committing 'minor' crimes, was significantly higher than young Whites. Assaults and Rapes were high on that list. PC gone made IMO, if the police know what creed or colour commit 'street' crime, then they are the ones who should be stopped.

 

Hamster, watch more news mate, re-adjust your political thinking;)

 

Assault and rape count as minor crimes then, according to this particular ex-copper? And, for that matter, ones which would have been prevented by using stop and search?

[dune]

I spoke to an ex assistant Chief Constable about this, some ten years ago. He told me then, that the proportion of young Blacks committing 'minor' crimes, was significantly higher than young Whites. Assaults and Rapes were high on that list. PC gone made IMO, if the police know what creed or colour commit 'street' crime, then they are the ones who should be stopped.

 

Hamster, watch more news mate, re-adjust your political thinking;)

 

In other words the Police are simply doing their job, but it's something for the lefties to get in tizz about.

[GenevaSaint]

In other words the Police are simply doing their job, but it's something for the lefties to get in tizz about.

 

Dune, please do stop your political leftism, socialism ramblings. This could be a good thread that doesn't need the whole leftie do gooder ****e.

[dune]

Dune, please do stop your political leftism, socialism ramblings. This could be a good thread that doesn't need the whole leftie do gooder ****e.

 

It's crucial to the debate. Those on the left care more about political correctness than national security/the safety of our streets.

[norwaysaint]

Surely if you stop and search a higher amount of black people, you're going to find a higher proportion of guilty black people.

 

I passed my driving test at the same time as a black mate, I stopped working at the same place as him around that time, but met up about a year later. He'd by then been pulled over by the police for "random checks" seven times, he was as straight as they come. Twenty years later I still haven't experienced this once. Surely this kind of activity is skewing crime statistics. If you look hard enough at any one group you'll find crime, if you don't look at another group, you won't find it.

[StuRomseySaint]

Just saw the report on BBC South news that says that in Southampton whhite people are about 7 times less likely to be subjected to the archaic 'Stop and Search' laws than non-whites.

 

Clearly not effective and leaves no doubt that the 'force' is well behind the times. i wouldn't necesarily accuse them of institutionalised racism, but come on, wtf are they playing at.

 

Hope this is not too controversial for the LOUNGE.

 

Thoughts?

 

They are also about 7 times less likely to commit a crime than non-whites... get over it.

[greg_hill]

Let's remember that the Equality Commission is a government agency and no doubt has people at the top earning themselves a nice fat salary courtesy of the tax payer.

 

I find it highly unlikely their report could say: " Stop and Search seems to be used fairly well. There really is no need for an agency to investigate stuff like this any more" even if that were the case!

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Stop and search policies achieve only the illusion of safety. As a society, you will never be able to make in-roads into minor crime through this culture of suspicion.

 

Tackle the problems that cause these people to commit these minor crimes - then, when these problems have been dealt with, as a nation we might have an excuse to randomly stop and accuse INNOCENT PEOPLE of offending.

[solentstars]

They are also about 7 times less likely to commit a crime than non-whites... get over it.

oh dear:rolleyes:

[solentstars]

Just saw the report on BBC South news that says that in Southampton whhite people are about 7 times less likely to be subjected to the archaic 'Stop and Search' laws than non-whites.

 

Clearly not effective and leaves no doubt that the 'force' is well behind the times. i wouldn't necesarily accuse them of institutionalised racism, but come on, wtf are they playing at.

 

Hope this is not too controversial for the LOUNGE.

 

Thoughts?

stop and search did not work in the 80 within the black community, there were riots in some parts of the country in majority black areas (Brixton, Handsworth, Toxteth, Southall & Moss Side) in the early 1980s and "sus" was repealed in 1981[2]. Under PACE, the law states that the grounds for a standard "stop & search" are limited to a situation where the officers have reasonable grounds for suspicion.

if the officers have reasonable grounds for suspicion i can not see any problems with that, but i don,t think southampton has a history of trouble with its coloured population so the figures need looking at.

[Huntingdon]

I'm not being racist, I'm just stating official facts

 

2% of UK's population are black

11% of UK prisoners are black

 

You do the maths..............statistically a black person is more likely to enter a life of crime than a white person

[solentstars]

I'm not being racist, I'm just stating official facts

 

2% of UK's population are black

11% of UK prisoners are black

 

You do the maths..............statistically a black person is more likely to enter a life of crime than a white person

or is it that they are more likely to be jailed rather then cautioned or let of ?

[GenevaSaint]

stop and search did not work in the 80 within the black community, there were riots in some parts of the country in majority black areas (Brixton, Handsworth, Toxteth, Southall & Moss Side) in the early 1980s and "sus" was repealed in 1981[2]. Under PACE, the law states that the grounds for a standard "stop & search" are limited to a situation where the officers have reasonable grounds for suspicion.

if the officers have reasonable grounds for suspicion i can not see any problems with that, but i don,t think southampton has a history of trouble with its coloured population so the figures need looking at.

 

That is soooo crap, please call them the black community.

[buctootim]

Yes. Its because you are white

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6521199.ece

[AndyNorthernSaints]

They are also about 7 times less likely to commit a crime than non-whites... get over it.

 

Like getting arrested and thrown out of football grounds?

[StuRomseySaint]

oh dear:rolleyes:

 

ITS THE TRUTH!!!!

 

There is even a stat on here showing that!!!

 

2% of the UK are black.

 

11% of the prisoner population are black.

 

That makes it 5.5 times more likely to commit serious crime.

 

Loon.

[StuRomseySaint]

Like getting arrested and thrown out of football grounds?

 

Ooooooooooh get you.

 

You could compare it to football.

 

If you go to football wearing designer clothing you are 7 times more likely to get searched than someone who goes to the game wearing a replica shirt.

 

Is it right that people should be discriminated against because they choose to dress smartly for football over people who dress like clowns?

 

Stop pulling out the 'colour' card people... they are searched more because they are more likely to be commiting an offence. FACT

[norwaysaint]

ITS THE TRUTH!!!!

 

There is even a stat on here showing that!!!

 

2% of the UK are black.

 

11% of the prisoner population are black.

 

That makes it 5.5 times more likely to commit serious crime.

 

Loon.

 

No, that makes it 5.5 times more likely a black person will be caught and convicted of a crime. The more people of a group you stop an search, the more criminals you will find. In my younger days I would often walk around with an amount of cannabis or speed in my pocket. It was unlikely I'd ever be checked. If I had been black, there would have been a much higher chance I would have been convicted for drug possession. The fact that I wasn't doesn't mean that whites are less guilty of drug crime than blacks, it means whites are less likely to be caught. This follows through to more serious crimes too.

 

Statistics can be very misleading.

[nathan]

No, that makes it 5.5 times more likely a black person will be caught and convicted of a crime. The more people of a group you stop an search, the more criminals you will find. In my younger days I would often walk around with an amount of cannabis or speed in my pocket. It was unlikely I'd ever be checked. If I had been black, there would have been a much higher chance I would have been convicted for drug possession. The fact that I wasn't doesn't mean that whites are less guilty of drug crime than blacks, it means whites are less likely to be caught. This follows through to more serious crimes too.

 

Statistics can be very misleading.

 

Oh, the irony! You say statistics can be very misleading, yet you use them to support your argument. It can never be proved beyond doubt which one of the arguments is true, but quite frankly, if 100 people getting stopped prevents one crime, then that's a-ok in my book!

[aintforever]

No, that makes it 5.5 times more likely a black person will be caught and convicted of a crime. The more people of a group you stop an search, the more criminals you will find. In my younger days I would often walk around with an amount of cannabis or speed in my pocket. It was unlikely I'd ever be checked. If I had been black, there would have been a much higher chance I would have been convicted for drug possession. The fact that I wasn't doesn't mean that whites are less guilty of drug crime than blacks, it means whites are less likely to be caught. This follows through to more serious crimes too.

 

Statistics can be very misleading.

 

I think you're being the most misleading.

 

If someone is stabbed by a black guy, the police looking for the criminal will only stop and search black guys. That's the simple fact.

[ecuk268]

I'm not being racist, I'm just stating official facts

 

2% of UK's population are black

11% of UK prisoners are black

 

You do the maths..............statistically a black person is more likely to enter a life of crime than a white person

 

Not at all. The figures show that more blacks are convicted. There are many crimes that go unsolved or are not reported. Maybe if police tactics were different, the results would change. Be very careful of simple statistics - they may not tell the complete story.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Ooooooooooh get you.

 

You could compare it to football.

 

If you go to football wearing designer clothing you are 7 times more likely to get searched than someone who goes to the game wearing a replica shirt.

 

Is it right that people should be discriminated against because they choose to dress smartly for football over people who dress like clowns?

 

Stop pulling out the 'colour' card people... they are searched more because they are more likely to be commiting an offence. FACT

 

How many times though are those wearing replica shirts going to be involved in any trouble compared to the 'causal'?

 

You say that it is fine to SnS black and asian groups as they arguably commit more crimes, yet you say it's discrimination for stewards/police to search a casual when they commit the highest number of football offences!

[scotty]

I wonder how long it took BBC South to sweep the dust off this non-story. I remember the exact same reports and arguments from the sixties, and it resurfaces every few months with monotonous regularity.

[dune]

I'm not being racist, I'm just stating official facts

 

2% of UK's population are black

11% of UK prisoners are black

 

You do the maths..............statistically a black person is more likely to enter a life of crime than a white person

 

These figures show that the Police are doing their job correctly with their weighted stop and search tactic. Profiling might not sit well with the PC brigade but it's crucial to keeping our streets safe.

[GenevaSaint]

ITS THE TRUTH!!!!

There is even a stat on here showing that!!!

2% of the UK are black.

11% of the prisoner population are black.

That makes it 5.5 times more likely to commit serious crime.

Loon.

 

Stu, that 2% doesn't include those of mixed race which is also an option on the census. So the 5.5 time is not strictly correct.

[ericofarabia]

Conclusive evidence here .....

 

 

Oh for the non PC days of comedy

[View From The Top]

The standard stop and search is a blunt tool where as targeted SaS is much more effective.

 

I remember when West Mids OB did a big anti-gang drive in Lozzells and Nechells and all the complaints as it was mainly young black men getting stopped. No one seemed to work out it was becasue it was young black men who were, in the main, involved in the gangs in those two neighbourhoods!

[solentstars]

ITS THE TRUTH!!!!

 

There is even a stat on here showing that!!!

 

2% of the UK are black.

 

11% of the prisoner population are black.

 

That makes it 5.5 times more likely to commit serious crime.

 

Loon.

 

you make me laugh :heart:you really are sad:rolleyes:

[INFLUENCED.COM]

The more people of a group you stop an search, the more criminals you will find.

 

Not if less within that group commit crime.

[StuRomseySaint]

How many times though are those wearing replica shirts going to be involved in any trouble compared to the 'causal'?

 

You say that it is fine to SnS black and asian groups as they arguably commit more crimes, yet you say it's discrimination for stewards/police to search a casual when they commit the highest number of football offences!

 

'Casuals' are more likely statistically to get into trouble than jester hat wearing clowns... I give you that one... in the same way that black/asian people are more likely to be up to no good.

 

So the polices response to both these is the same... they target the ones most likely to be breaking the law based on years of knowledge and statistics.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Ooooooooooh get you.

 

You could compare it to football.

 

If you go to football wearing designer clothing you are 7 times more likely to get searched than someone who goes to the game wearing a replica shirt.

 

Is it right that people should be discriminated against because they choose to dress smartly for football over people who dress like clowns?

 

Stop pulling out the 'colour' card people... they are searched more because they are more likely to be commiting an offence. FACT

 

What if you are someone from a ethnic minority group who keeps up with your casual dress code? they would'nt stand a chance?

[solentstars]

What if you are someone from a ethnic minority group who keeps up with your casual dress code? they would'nt stand a chance?

he he:D mind you you got to have your fat belly and beer to go with your casual gear

[AndyNorthernSaints]

'Casuals' are more likely statistically to get into trouble than jester hat wearing clowns... I give you that one... in the same way that black/asian people are more likely to be up to no good.

 

So the polices response to both these is the same... they target the ones most likely to be breaking the law based on years of knowledge and statistics.

 

Years of knowledge does not seem to have improved Police football intelligence.

 

Have you got any real facts/statistics to back up your claim that non white people are more likely to be up to no good. And i don't mean from some BNP website btw.

[ecuk268]

ITS THE TRUTH!!!!

 

There is even a stat on here showing that!!!

 

2% of the UK are black.

 

11% of the prisoner population are black.

 

That makes it 5.5 times more likely to commit serious crime.

 

Loon.

 

No it doesn't. If the police only went after black people, then 100% of the prison population would be black. The reverse is true if they only went after white. The crime statistics depend a lot on police priorities and tactics.

 

If they had a purge on drink- driving then the drink-driving stats would soar. You cannot make generalisations without knowing the complete picture.

 

I can recommend some good books on statistics if you're interested.

[StuRomseySaint]

What if you are someone from a ethnic minority group who keeps up with your casual dress code? they would'nt stand a chance?

 

 

There is limited police resources... there are only so many people who you can stop and search because there are only so many police officers.

 

Do you go for the ones who's statistics show you have a far less chance of commiting a crime... or do you search the people that statistics prove you have more chance of discovering something.

 

Its not racist... it is called intelligence and using available resources in the best way.

[StuRomseySaint]

No it doesn't. If the police only went after black people, then 100% of the prison population would be black. The reverse is true if they only went after white. The crime statistics depend a lot on police priorities and tactics.

 

If they had a purge on drink- driving then the drink-driving stats would soar. You cannot make generalisations without knowing the complete picture.

 

I can recommend some good books on statistics if you're interested.

 

All this stop and search b*llocks does not effect the prison population... only a tiny percentage of the stop and searches will find something which would mean a custodial sentance...

 

People in prison have been to court and stood before a jury who have seen sufficient evidence to convict them... and still they are 5.5 times more likely to commit an offence deemed worthy of prison.

[solentstars]

No it doesn't. If the police only went after black people, then 100% of the prison population would be black. The reverse is true if they only went after white. The crime statistics depend a lot on police priorities and tactics.

 

If they had a purge on drink- driving then the drink-driving stats would soar. You cannot make generalisations without knowing the complete picture.

 

I can recommend some good books on statistics if you're interested.

 

i agree ,i find it hard to believe that southampton has higher rate of black crime compared to london and manchester,so i think they need to look at why the figures are so out of line.

[ecuk268]

All this stop and search b*llocks does not effect the prison population... only a tiny percentage of the stop and searches will find something which would mean a custodial sentance...

 

People in prison have been to court and stood before a jury who have seen sufficient evidence to convict them... and still they are 5.5 times more likely to commit an offence deemed worthy of prison.

 

Forget stop and search. The numbers and types of people appearing in court are a consequence of how the police do their job. If they concentrate on a specific part of the population then they will appear more in the courts. If they totally ignored the Chinese, then, according to the statistics, they'd never have committed any crimes.

 

I'm not saying that the statistics are wrong, but there are many factors that could influence them and we would need a lot more information before forming a firm conclusion.

[Weston Super Saint]

Forget stop and search. The numbers and types of people appearing in court are a consequence of how the police do their job. If they concentrate on a specific part of the population then they will appear more in the courts. If they totally ignored the Chinese, then, according to the statistics, they'd never have committed any crimes.

 

I'm not saying that the statistics are wrong, but there are many factors that could influence them and we would need a lot more information before forming a firm conclusion.

 

I was under the impression that the police arrested, charged and took to court people who had committed a crime.

 

You seem to be suggesting that they are specifically targeting minority groups to 'blur' the statistical figures!

 

I wonder what the CPS would have to say about your assumptions

[Redondo Saint]

These figures show that the Police are doing their job correctly with their weighted stop and search tactic. Profiling might not sit well with the PC brigade but it's crucial to keeping our streets safe.

 

Wow, I agree with you on this!

 

The PC brigade are in full force at Heathrow airport when stopping and searching passengers. The amount of times I have seen elderly couples, kids (regardless of colour) stopped and searched is a poor joke, in their attempt to not 'profile' potential threats.

 

PC is and will continue to be, a weapon in the armoury of the criminals, in my opinion.