More UKIP bother

[Sour Mash]

Personally I'm happy with inter-EU migration for work as it works both ways. The Poles, Slovaks, Lats etc that I know & work with are all decent hardworking people trying to make a better life for their kids. Hard to begrudge them that.

Most do not begrudge the individuals that simply work hard and want a better life for their families. What they do begrudge is how the system pushes down wages for ordinary folk, while pushing up the cost of living on things like rent. That is why so many are unhappy.

[Sour Mash]

Do you think there should be any limit on immigration or can anybody turn up and work in the UK?

 

It's a tough one, and something I constantly find myself torn on.

You find yourself "torn" as to whether there should be any limit on immigration or not?

[Lord Duckhunter]

I love how UKIP are now trying to present themselves as the anti-racists with this line.

 

They ban ex BNP members from the party, the liblabcon don't.

 

To me there's 3 coherent lines to take on immigration.

1. Ban everybody no matter which country them come from.

2. Let everybody in, no matter which country they come from

3. Have a system that bases numbers on quality and the needs of the UK economy. Importantly, it shouldn't matter which country you come from, just which skills you have and your willingness to contribute to our society.

 

An incoherent policy is ;

Pick 26 countries and use policy 2 from above. Whilst using policy 3 for the rest of the world.

 

Would the anti ukip posters be happy if they picked 26 countries and changed their policy for those countries? Would this make them less anti immigrant. What if they allowed unrestricted immigration from Australia, new Zealand, Canada, USA,Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland, whilst imposing restrictions on Indians, Chinese, Jamaicans and Africans. Would people say, " wow, what an inclusive fair and nice party they are". .

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You find yourself "torn" as to whether there should be any limit on immigration or not?

 

Yes. For the reasons I explained below that sentence. Or could you not understand the rest? No one is actually suggesting just "opening the doors" and letting the entire planet come in.

 

Even if they did, not everyone wants to.

[View From The Top]

They ban ex BNP members from the party, the liblabcon don't.

 

To me there's 3 coherent lines to take on immigration.

1. Ban everybody no matter which country them come from.

2. Let everybody in, no matter which country they come from

3. Have a system that bases numbers on quality and the needs of the UK economy. Importantly, it shouldn't matter which country you come from, just which skills you have and your willingness to contribute to our society.

 

An incoherent policy is ;

Pick 26 countries and use policy 2 from above. Whilst using policy 3 for the rest of the world.

 

Would the anti ukip posters be happy if they picked 26 countries and changed their policy for those countries? Would this make them less anti immigrant. What if they allowed unrestricted immigration from Australia, new Zealand, Canada, USA,Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland, whilst imposing restrictions on Indians, Chinese, Jamaicans and Africans. Would people say, " wow, what an inclusive fair and nice party they are". .

 

The EU policy on freedom of movement is perfectly coherent, you simply don't like it.

[Sour Mash]

Yes. For the reasons I explained below that sentence. Or could you not understand the rest? No one is actually suggesting just "opening the doors" and letting the entire planet come in.

 

Even if they did, not everyone wants to.

I could understand it, I just found that bit funny.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I could understand it, I just found that bit funny.

 

So basically, you find it funny that I struggle with the idea of people being tied to the bit of land to life, simply through a fluke of birth?

 

Yeah, hilarious that.

[Sour Mash]

So basically, you find it funny that I struggle with the idea of people being tied to the bit of land to life, simply through a fluke of birth?

 

Yeah, hilarious that.

Wouldn't go as far as hilarious, just quite funny.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The EU policy on freedom of movement is perfectly coherent,

 

Not if you only want the brightest and the best its not. Or if you want the fairest system.

[View From The Top]

Not if you only want the brightest and the best its not. Or if you want the fairest system.

 

The brightest and the best still come from all over the world and will continue to do so.

 

The biggest drain, immigrant wise, on our economy comes from the unskilled newcomers from Africa & Asia, not Europe. 8 years working in some of the poorest wards in The Black Country has convinced me of that.

Edited 12 May, 2014 by View From The Top

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Do you think there should be any limit on immigration or can anybody turn up and work in the UK?

 

Yes, clearly there is a point at which immigration would becoming unsustainable, but I'm not convinced we've reached that point. And the more UKIP do their ridiculous scaremongering the less likely I am to believe that there is a problem.

 

I wouldn't care if they got rid of freedom of movement, and it is a problem that Euro elections have such low turnouts. But ultimately we need to be in the EU in order to have a say in world affairs, and we need to try to share our wealth with Eastern Europe so that we don't have any more wars. So reform is the answer rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater and leaving the EU.

[hypochondriac]

The brightest and the best still come from all over the world and will continue to do so.

 

The biggest drain, immigrant wise, on our economy comes from the unskilled newcomers from Africa & Asia, not Europe. 8 years working in some of the poorest wards in The Black Country has convinced me of that.

 

Tbf, I work with loads of brilliant Polish workers and they say often they are embarrassed by many of their countrymen who come here and do nothing or just cause trouble.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

You can do that yourself though, why do you need the government to take from you and decide which charitable project to spend it on? I'd rather choose myself, we're one of the most charitable nations in the world- something to certainly be proud of. That said I wouldn't support cutting the aid budget all together.

 

I don't have any money!

 

Eastern Europe needs economic growth, not some charitable dependency

[Ex Lion Tamer]

It's a tough one, and something I constantly find myself torn on.

 

On the one hand, I don't really see why through the fluke of birth we should be able to stay in this little part of the planet where we have more opportunities than those not so lucky to be born into somewhere with equally good opportunities. It does seem nasty to say, no, you were not born here, only people born here can work here. I have no problem with anyone that wants to work hard and further there lives coming to the UK to do so. Why should they not? I would probably do the same thing if I was in their situation.

 

There also seems to be some misconception amongst some (not everyone) that all foreign immigrants come to the UK and live a life of luxury. That is rarely the case. They often work and live in some pretty squalid conditions.

 

But, I do too share concerns about things such as infrastructure. Housing, hospitals, doctors, schools, transport etc. These are genuine concerns, and there is a strong case that when immigration was very high earlier this century, these things were neglected - this of course causes problems.

 

I have no problem with immigration, as long as plans are put into place to make sure we can accommodate immigrants. This is something we have not done well previously.

 

My problem with UKIP is the way they frame the debate. It is nothing but fear mongering and scare tactics. Those election campaign posters were vile. Even if they were not racist, they certainly were nasty.

 

UKIP served a purpose in raising the issues of immigration and EU. Yes, at the time they weren't being discussed. It simply isn't true that that is still the case.

 

Stewart Lee's quote above feels pretty apt for me. They are nasty, you can blame the media all you want, but there members constantly show themselves as pretty nasty people, who for all their protestations are no better than those they claim to be a change from. They also are total one trick ponies. We want out of the EU, 95% of people of say they will vote for them have no idea what they stand for other than EU, and probably think they will stop immigration. If they got any where near power it would be an utter disaster.

 

The EU is far from perfect, I'm certainly not its biggest fan. But I would be concerned about just pulling out as UKIP want. For the wailing that was thrown at the poster that listed some of the good things that have come about as a result of the EU, and the "oh it's as if we would be a destitute 3rd world country without the EU" if one listened to the Anti-EU & UKIP crowd, it is as if we are full to bursting and a 3rd world destitute country with it. The truth of course lies somewhere in the middle.

 

No doubt it's time for me to put a hard hat on now.

 

Edit: ps: Just becuase I agree with Stewart Lee, I'm not a leftie, just ask pap.

 

Great post.

[View From The Top]

Tbf, I work with loads of brilliant Polish workers and they say often they are embarrassed by many of their countrymen who come here and do nothing or just cause trouble.

 

I've no doubt it happens but my experience, and I can only judge by my own experience, is that most are very sound. My next door neighbours are Slovak and at the back of us they are Poles. Their kids were all born here and they are all settled, in good jobs, consider England home and nicer people you'd struggle to meet.

 

We get a lot of seasonal workers, mainly young males, but they seem to all live together in rented houses but cause no issues. The indigenous thick white scum are far more if a problem.

[TwoPints]

Hi Woah! You lot have been busy while I've been away ... lets go back a bit

 

Complete and utter nonsense, are you trying to say that there would be no holiday entitlement if we weren't in the EU, that we'd be swimming around on dirty beaches, that the labour government wouldn't have banned smoking at work, that we had 13 years of labour and they wouldn't have legislated against equal pay and labour protection. Complete and utter nonsense. Do the Swiss not have holidays, do Australians not recycle, are there not clean beaches in Florida? Laughable..........

 

I was just wondering today, out of the list of new laws that have been introduced by the EU, which one's do you disagree with so much that you want out of the EU as a result? If you don't disagree with any of them then what's the problem?

 

I've recently employed polish and Romanian workers. They were the best candidates in a selection process that included Brits. Therefore is it right to assume that those British people who didn't get the job were adversely affected. During the boom we were struggling to recruit for our minimum wage jobs, we didn't need to put the wages up to attract people because we suddenly got a steady supply of very willing and hard working people to take those jobs. Is it beyond your comprehension to see that the effect of this kept wages down

 

This is the best argument I've seen for open borders! Let me get this right, as a business owner or recruiter, you're happy to be restricted in your choice of candidates and forced to choose employees that, by your own admission, wouldn't have been as good as those that you did employ! How on earth is that of any benefit to the UK if business leaders are prevented from employing the best candidates?

 

As a white middle class 50 year old , immigration hasn't really affected me much, but then I guess the " cost of living crises" hasn't really hit the milliband household, doesn't stop him having an opinion though doers it? Are you seriously saying that you can only comment on issues that affect yourself, that's quite a selfish point of view. For low paid unskilled poor people, immigration from eastern Europe has been a nightmare, not to mention builders etc who have had their wages undercut.

 

So, the answer then is 'No' you haven't been adversely affected by the open border policy (and nor has anyone else I've come across so far) but you imagine that people must be worse off because they might not have been successful in achieving employment when an EU citizen gets the job ahead of them (again without any direct evidence to this effect). Had you considered that maybe the immigrants from the EU also employ people and maybe even UK citizens?

 

By the way, I note that you're again twisting my words as I haven't for one minute suggested that you're not allowed an opinion, if you read my previous posts you'll be aware that I have asked this question to try and understand whether this really is a problem or just a perception based on certain media elements and so far, from the arguments here I'm of the opinion that it's the latter for the reasons I have stated above.

 

But what if allowing more poles and Romanians in means that less people from Africa or India are able to live and work here. Why should somebody from Germany be treated differently than somebody from India?

 

Not your best argument. In one breath you're decrying an open border policy and in the next suggesting that if we do it for Europeans, then we should do it for everyone. There clearly has to be a benefit to the UK in having an open border policy (details of which I have explained earlier) which clearly wouldn't apply to the whole world. We have different immigration rules for a number of different nationalities based on the benefits to be gained by the UK in doing so.

 

That'll do for now.

Edited 12 May, 2014 by TwoPints

[Sour Mash]

Woah! You lot have been busy while I've been away ... lets go back a bit

 

 

 

I was just wondering today, out of the list of new laws that have been introduced by the EU, which one's do you disagree with so much that you want out of the EU as a result? If you don't disagree with any of them then what's the problem?

 

 

 

This is the best argument I've seen for open borders! Let me get this right, as a business owner or recruiter, you're happy to be restricted in your choice of candidates and forced to choose employees that, by your own admission, wouldn't have been as good as those that you did employ! How on earth is that of any benefit to the UK if business leaders are prevented from employing the best candidates?

 

 

 

So, the answer then is 'No' you haven't been adversely affected by the open border policy (and nor has anyone else I've come across so far) but you imagine that people must be worse off because they might not have been successful in achieving employment when an EU citizen gets the job ahead of them (again without any direct evidence to this effect). Had you considered that maybe the immigrants from the EU also employ people and maybe even UK citizens?

 

By the way, I note that you're again twisting my words as I haven't for one minute suggested that you're not allowed an opinion, if you read my previous posts you'll be aware that I have asked this question to try and understand whether this really is a problem or just a perception based on certain media elements and so far, from the arguments here I'm of the opinion that it's the latter for the reasons I have stated above.

 

 

 

Not you're best argument. In one breath you're decrying an open border policy and in the next suggesting that if we do it for Europeans, then we should do it for everyone. There clearly has to be a benefit to the UK in having an open border policy (details of which I have explained earlier) which clearly wouldn't apply to the whole world. We have different immigration rules for a number of different nationalities based on the benefits to be gained by the UK in doing so.

 

That'll do for now.

Just so I understand it right, are you saying that open door EU immigration hasn't had a negative affect on sections of this country's population?

[TwoPints]

Just so I understand it right, are you saying that open door EU immigration hasn't had a negative affect on sections of this country's population?

 

What I'm saying is that I have yet to be convinced that the issue is as great as it is being portrayed by those that want out of the EU. I have no doubt that there are people that may have been unsuccessful in getting a job because a European immigrant may have been better suited to the role, I also suspect that there are Europeans that have been unsuccessful in a role because a UK citizen was better qualified for the role in their own country. This inevitably changes the dynamic but not to the degree that it becomes such a problem as we're being lead to believe.

 

The message we're hearing is that immigration is out of control, is causing hardship to UK citizens etc etc (when the unemployment rate is as low as it's been in a good while) but I have seen or heard no direct evidence of this. I suspect the system isn't perfect and the better the deal we can get for the UK, well I'm all for it but I am convinced that leaving the EU just to avoid the open door policy (which doesn't appear to be as bad for the country as is being made out) would do the country much more harm than good.

[Sour Mash]

What I'm saying is that I have yet to be convinced that the issue is as great as it is being portrayed by those that want out of the EU. I have no doubt that there are people that may have been unsuccessful in getting a job because a European immigrant may have been better suited to the role, I also suspect that there are Europeans that have been unsuccessful in a role because a UK citizen was better qualified for the role in their own country. This inevitably changes the dynamic but not to the degree that it becomes such a problem as we're being lead to believe.

 

The message we're hearing is that immigration is out of control, is causing hardship to UK citizens etc etc (when the unemployment rate is as low as it's been in a good while) but I have seen or heard no direct evidence of this. I suspect the system isn't perfect and the better the deal we can get for the UK, well I'm all for it but I am convinced that leaving the EU just to avoid the open door policy (which doesn't appear to be as bad for the country as is being made out) would do the country much more harm than good.

Just a yes or no would do.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Just a yes or no would do.

 

Life's much easier when things are black and white, isn't it.

[TwoPints]

Just a yes or no would do.

 

No it wouldn't. If I'd said 'Yes' you'd have called me a bloody idiot. If I'd said 'No' you'd have asked me what the hell I was talking about then. Where words are easily twisted and misrepresented, I find its best to give a full answer.

[pap]

My grandad tells me he's voting UKIP. Farage is really bagging that Karachi crowd.

[Sour Mash]

No it wouldn't. If I'd said 'Yes' you'd have called me a bloody idiot. If I'd said 'No' you'd have asked me what the hell I was talking about then. Where words are easily twisted and misrepresented, I find its best to give a full answer.

Not really, it's an easy question to answer one way or another.

[pap]

My main issue with the EU is no longer immigration, although that's huge.

 

For those who are banging the pro-EU drum, can I ask for your thoughts on the EU's role in Ukraine, and in a broader sense, its role in antagonising Russia.

 

Seems to me that the EU has acted as a political belligerent for the last 20 years, and that it might be a little naive to think of a post-Empire world.

[TwoPints]

My main issue with the EU is no longer immigration, although that's huge.

 

For those who are banging the pro-EU drum, can I ask for your thoughts on the EU's role in Ukraine, and in a broader sense, its role in antagonising Russia.

 

Seems to me that the EU has acted as a political belligerent for the last 20 years, and that it might be a little naive to think of a post-Empire world.

 

In what way has the EU antagonised Russia? I'm not an expert on the whole Ukraine issue but from memory, their leader at the time changed his position from wanting closer ties to the EU/West to having closer ties to Russia. The people (mainly of Kiev as I recall) weren't best pleased about this about turn and unceremoniously ousted the man at the top.

 

Now, clearly in the East of Ukraine they have different views on matters and Russia seems to have taken it upon itself to annex Crimea as a result and claim it as Russian. Some might consider such action as an invasion and therefore inappropriate as the EU do. Is that antagonising Russia?

 

Now if the EU had gone into Ukraine and militarily decided that parts of it were going to form parts of Germany then I would grant you that such action might antagonise Russia but in no way has that happened.

 

Maybe you could expand on how you believe Russia has been antagonised by the EU in this scenario.

[pap]

In what way has the EU antagonised Russia?

 

 

[Verbal]

My main issue with the EU is no longer immigration, although that's huge.

 

For those who are banging the pro-EU drum, can I ask for your thoughts on the EU's role in Ukraine, and in a broader sense, its role in antagonising Russia.

 

Seems to me that the EU has acted as a political belligerent for the last 20 years, and that it might be a little naive to think of a post-Empire world.

 

Good god, you're crass - and clearly watching too much Russia Today. So your 'main issue' with the EU is its 'belligerence' in the fall of the Soviet empire and its fall out? What 'belligerence' is this exactly? And showing maps of the post-Soviet East is not an answer acceptable to anyone but a craven admirer of the FSB.

 

You have no idea how national movements work and have worked in what was the East European Communist bloc. You have no idea how post-Communist regimes in Eastern Europe have been the ones to initiate political and economic alignment with the EU, in fear of what has always been a xenophobic Russian state, intent on crushing independent political movements and civil rights. You have no idea how Russia has used energy as a weapon to cow neighbouring states. And you clearly have no idea how Russia has manipulated pockets of Russian speakers in Ukraine and many other countries. How dare Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, East Germany, abandon their place in the enlightened orbit of the Soviet Union! How dare they apply for EU membership! And how dare anyone suggest that they might do so of their own volition, rather than at the manipulative behest of the evil EU!

 

Turning the EU into another one of your gullibly stupid conspiracy theories is beyond tiresome. I suppose you'll have us believe that Pussy Riot are part of a plot led by Baroness Ashton to overthrow the preening idiot Putin, whom you clearly adore.

 

Weird.

[pap]

Good god, you're crass - and clearly watching too much Russia Today. So your 'main issue' with the EU is its 'belligerence' in the fall of the Soviet empire and its fall out? What 'belligerence' is this exactly? And showing maps of the post-Soviet East is not an answer acceptable to anyone but a craven admirer of the FSB.

 

You have no idea how national movements work and have worked in what was the East European Communist bloc. You have no idea how post-Communist regimes in Eastern Europe have been the ones to initiate political and economic alignment with the EU, in fear of what has always been a xenophobic Russian state, intent on crushing independent political movements and civil rights. You have no idea how Russia has used energy as a weapon to cow neighbouring states. And you clearly have no idea how Russia has manipulated pockets of Russian speakers in Ukraine and many other countries. How dare Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, East Germany, abandon their place in the enlightened orbit of the Soviet Union! How dare they apply for EU membership! And how dare anyone suggest that they might do so of their own volition, rather than at the manipulative behest of the evil EU!

 

Turning the EU into another one of your gullibly stupid conspiracy theories is beyond tiresome. I suppose you'll have us believe that Pussy Riot are part of a plot led by Baroness Ashton to overthrow the preening idiot Putin, whom you clearly adore.

 

Weird.

 

Welcome back, your old self too; devoting your very first sentence to an attack. I will respond to one of your insults; "craven". I find that extremely amusing coming from a man who spent his Saturday night harassing a mod to purge all traces of his identity, because he is shít-scared of being associated with his words. You don't get to use that word with any credibility.

 

That aside, let's try to pick some substance from this shítburger of a post. You place the most effort into your second paragragh, enumerating the horrors of the Soviet regime and how it pushed formerly oppressed states into signing their sovereignty away for a taste of the west. That's a fair point, but then you're speaking from the perspective of a slavish defender of Western establishment and all its attendant hypocrisies.

 

Putin probably places more concern on those two maps, NATO on his doorstep, the usual economic hitman routine going on in Ukraine and putting the Eurasian Union together. He probably doesn't have the same priorities as you, and therefore isn't going to let historical guilt, if he feels any at all, impede whatever plans he has.

 

The EU has moved the borders, expanding into former Eastern Bloc countries. The Russians are probably looking at the territory and the shiny new NATO bases. Do you reckon they think "EU as imperialist vehicle" is a conspiracy theory?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Hi Woah! You lot have been busy while I've been away ... lets go back a bit

 

 

 

I was just wondering today, out of the list of new laws that have been introduced by the EU, which one's do you disagree with so much that you want out of the EU as a result? If you don't disagree with any of them then what's the problem?

 

 

 

This is the best argument I've seen for open borders! Let me get this right, as a business owner or recruiter, you're happy to be restricted in your choice of candidates and forced to choose employees that, by your own admission, wouldn't have been as good as those that you did employ! How on earth is that of any benefit to the UK if business leaders are prevented from employing the best candidates?

 

 

 

So, the answer then is 'No' you haven't been adversely affected by the open border policy (and nor has anyone else I've come across so far) but you imagine that people must be worse off because they might not have been successful in achieving employment when an EU citizen gets the job ahead of them (again without any direct evidence to this effect). Had you considered that maybe the immigrants from the EU also employ people and maybe even UK citizens?

 

By the way, I note that you're again twisting my words as I haven't for one minute suggested that you're not allowed an opinion, if you read my previous posts you'll be aware that I have asked this question to try and understand whether this really is a problem or just a perception based on certain media elements and so far, from the arguments here I'm of the opinion that it's the latter for the reasons I have stated above.

 

 

 

Not your best argument. In one breath you're decrying an open border policy and in the next suggesting that if we do it for Europeans, then we should do it for everyone. There clearly has to be a benefit to the UK in having an open border policy (details of which I have explained earlier) which clearly wouldn't apply to the whole world. We have different immigration rules for a number of different nationalities based on the benefits to be gained by the UK in doing so.

 

That'll do for now.

 

 

 

I was just wondering today, out of the list of new laws that have been introduced by the EU, which one's do you disagree with so much that you want out of the EU as a result? If you don't disagree with any of them then what's the problem?

 

It is not for a foreign trading body to impose new laws on a sovereign state.

 

 

 

This is the best argument I've seen for open borders! Let me get this right, as a business owner or recruiter, you're happy to be restricted in your choice of candidates and forced to choose employees that, by your own admission, wouldn't have been as good as those that you did employ! How on earth is that of any benefit to the UK if business leaders are prevented from employing the best candidates?

 

Stupid argument, how does it help the British economy if millions of youngsters are on the dole?

 

 

 

So, the answer then is 'No' you haven't been adversely affected by the open border policy (and nor has anyone else I've come across so far) but you imagine that people must be worse off because they might not have been successful in achieving employment when an EU citizen gets the job ahead of them (again without any direct evidence to this effect). Had you considered that maybe the immigrants from the EU also employ people and maybe even UK citizens?

 

With a quality test you'll still get immigrants who will employ people. Nobody is suggesting no immigration at all. As for only believing in policies that affect you, what a selfish approach. Why was Bob Crow against the EU, Tony Benn against, it didn't affect them, but they were concerned about the working man. You're opinion on this is bizarre.

 

 

 

 

Not your best argument. In one breath you're decrying an open border policy and in the next suggesting that if we do it for Europeans, then we should do it for everyone. There clearly has to be a benefit to the UK in having an open border policy (details of which I have explained earlier) which clearly wouldn't apply to the whole world. We have different immigration rules for a number of different nationalities based on the benefits to be gained by the UK in doing so.

 

The biggest load of nonsense yet. I'm not suggesting open borders for everyone, I'm suggesting quantity and quality test for all nations.

 

"We have different immigration rules for a number of different nationalities based on the benefits to be gained by the UK in doing so.". This is clearly nonsense. It is not based on "benefits", how do you define "benefits" of Romanians over Americans or Australians.

 

 

The simple truth is the EU was founded on the principle of "ever closer union". One major plank in this is the free movement of people. The UK has free movement of people, from Wales to England, Scotland to Ireland ect ect. That's how the EU nutters see it ,a EUSSR by stealth.

[TwoPints]

It is not for a foreign trading body to impose new laws on a sovereign state.

 

So you don't actually disagree with any of them then?

 

Stupid argument, how does it help the British economy if millions of youngsters are on the dole?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that there are 'millions of youngsters' on the diole purely as a result of immigration from the EU? Have you seen the latest unemployment figures and the direction they're going in and compared that the the pre open-borders levels taking into account that we have been through a world wide recession in the meantime? This is exactly what I mean when I say that the consequences have been blown out of proportion when the reality is nothing like as dramatic as you make out.

 

 

As for only believing in policies that affect you, what a selfish approach. Why was Bob Crow against the EU, Tony Benn against, it didn't affect them, but they were concerned about the working man. You're opinion on this is bizarre.

 

I'm not sure how many times I have to explain this (I think this is the third time now and my explanation around this appears to be the only line you haven't quoted from my text above). I am not for one minute suggesting that you can only have an opinion on issues that affect you and nowhere have I said this. My rationale for asking the question is to try and guage the level of impact that people have had as a result of immigration from the EU not that you can't have an opinion on it.

 

This is clearly nonsense. It is not based on "benefits", how do you define "benefits" of Romanians over Americans or Australians.

 

We're not just talking about immigration from Romania are we, we're talking about immigration and emmigration from and to EU countires, with whom we have trading agreements, open borders etc etc etc. I understand that you don't recognise the benefits of being in the EU but those in Government at the time did, hence the reason for accepting this immigration policy. You may recall we allow certain types of people from China into the UK or example that we don't allow from elsewhere as the Government of the day (rightly or wrongly) percieves that here is a benefit to the UK in doing so.

 

The simple truth is the EU was founded on the principle of "ever closer union". One major plank in this is the free movement of people. The UK has free movement of people, from Wales to England, Scotland to Ireland ect ect. That's how the EU nutters see it ,a EUSSR by stealth.

 

Yet again an insult 'EU nutters' to end your argument. presumably the definition of nutter is someone with a different opinon to you?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Not really, it's an easy question to answer one way or another.

 

Yes, immigration is as easy as a yes or no answer.

 

Simple solutions for simple minds eh?

[Batman]

Yes, immigration is as easy as a yes or no answer.

 

Simple solutions for simple minds eh?

 

Hence why most politicians waffle

[Ex Lion Tamer]

UKIP’s Magnus: ‘People who fought to extend the vote were probably doing the wrong thing’

http://richardosley.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/ukips-magnus-people-who-fought-to-extend-the-vote-were-probably-doing-the-wrong-thing/

 

Are there now more bad apples than good ones?

[Sour Mash]

Yes, immigration is as easy as a yes or no answer.

 

Simple solutions for simple minds eh?

Who has asked for immigration to be answered as a yes or no answer? What does that even mean? Simple minds indeed

[Minty]

Who has asked for immigration to be answered as a yes or no answer? What does that even mean? Simple minds indeed

 

No one specifically, but you led us down this path by asking for a yes or no after TwoPints had actually given a fuller answer to this question:

 

...are you saying that open door EU immigration hasn't had a negative affect on sections of this country's population?

 

Which gives the impression that you're trying to simplify the issue.

[Sour Mash]

No one specifically, but you led us down this path by asking for a yes or no after TwoPints had actually given a fuller answer to this question:

 

 

 

Which gives the impression that you're trying to simplify the issue.

No, I'm not trying to simplify the issue, it has many facets, I was just asking for clarification on his position, as it seemed unclear. Immigration clearly has had a negative effect on sections of this country's population, I was just establishing that fact.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

At least we can rely on UKIP to stand up for free speech right

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-free-speech-row-police-tell-blogger-to-take-down-legitimate-facts-taken-from-official-eurosceptic-party-policy-9358196.html

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I'm probably going to need to go into hiding after this, but yeah they DEFINITELY aren't racist.

 

I mean what would she know?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/13/ukip-sanya-jeet-thandi-racism-nigel-farage_n_5316718.html?1399996410

[Verbal]

I'm probably going to need to go into hiding after this, but yeah they DEFINITELY aren't racist.

 

I mean what would she know?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/13/ukip-sanya-jeet-thandi-racism-nigel-farage_n_5316718.html?1399996410

 

Thandi added: "Ukip is exploiting the stupidity of ignorant anti-immigrant voters for electoral gain. While the party deliberately attracts the racist vote, I refuse to be associated with them."

 

In one - although it does surprise me that she didn't notice they were the BNP in blazers earlier.

[bridge too far]

At least we can rely on UKIP to stand up for free speech right

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-free-speech-row-police-tell-blogger-to-take-down-legitimate-facts-taken-from-official-eurosceptic-party-policy-9358196.html

 

They've also threatened another well-known blogger 'Another Angry Voice

 

[pap]

Thandi added: "Ukip is exploiting the stupidity of ignorant anti-immigrant voters for electoral gain. While the party deliberately attracts the racist vote, I refuse to be associated with them."

 

In one - although it does surprise me that she didn't notice they were the BNP in blazers earlier.

 

She should vote for NO2EU.

[Sour Mash]

They've also threatened another well-known blogger 'Another Angry Voice

 

What threats have UKIP made to them?

[bridge too far]

What threats have UKIP made to them?

 

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/ukip-censorship-facebook-aav.html

 

About a third of the way down

[Sour Mash]

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/ukip-censorship-facebook-aav.html

 

About a third of the way down

I stopped taking it seriously when I saw the mention of "UKIP already sending the police around to one man's house"

[KelvinsRightGlove]

At least we can rely on UKIP to stand up for free speech right

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-free-speech-row-police-tell-blogger-to-take-down-legitimate-facts-taken-from-official-eurosceptic-party-policy-9358196.html

 

I stopped taking it seriously when I saw the mention of "UKIP already sending the police around to one man's house"

 

Guessing you didn't read this either then?

 

Guessing the young lady that left UKIP for them being racist didn't happen either, or she's just lying.

 

Or you could just bury your head in the sand.

[Sour Mash]

Guessing you didn't read this either then?

 

Guessing the young lady that left UKIP for them being racist didn't happen either, or she's just lying.

 

Or you could just bury your head in the sand.

So one random party members makes a complaint to the local police and they (wrongly) visit the person who wrote the tweets - that's the fault of the local police who should have told the caller to get lost, it's clearly got nothing to to with UKIP as a party.

 

I suppose this young lady that has left the party has got a long list of examples of racist behaviour and policies from UKIP? What's that? Just empty conjecture.

 

Why don't you drop the other UKIP members from ethnic minorities a line and let them know how racist they're being? http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/474603/You-can-NEVER-call-us-racist-again-Ukip-s-black-and-ethnic-minority-members-fight-back

Edited 13 May, 2014 by Sour Mash

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So one random arty members makes a complaint to the local police and they (wrongly) visit the person who wrote the tweets - that's the fault of the local police who should have told the caller to get lost, it's clearly got nothing to to with UKIP as a party.

 

I suppose this young lady that has left the party has got a long list of examples of racist behaviour and policies from UKIP? What's that? Just empty conjecture.

 

Why don't you drop the other UKIP members from ethnic minorities a line and let them know how racist they're being? http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/474603/You-can-NEVER-call-us-racist-again-Ukip-s-black-and-ethnic-minority-members-fight-back

 

Haha.

 

 

Nope nope nope. Can't be true.

 

Everyone is just lying about UKIP and nige. They're all just jealous. We're nice really.

[Sour Mash]

Haha.

 

 

Nope nope nope. Can't be true.

 

Everyone is just lying about UKIP and nige. They're all just jealous. We're nice really.

Stick up some examples of racist policy. It must be easy for you, just take your time.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Stick up some examples of racist policy. It must be easy for you, just take your time.

 

Stick up examples of where I said the policies are racist.

 

They pander to the racists by talking about isolating Britain and stopping people coming over here taking their jobs, there's 26 million people wanting to come here and take YOUR job don't you know.

 

Not to mention the fact that 95% of the time any other than Farage opens his mouth, something hateful, racist and often misogynistic comes out.

 

But, they got a load of black people on stage, so they can't be racist. Guarantee you look on BNP, EDL, Britain First pages they will hold up their minority of minority supporters. It's basically, "I can't be racist, I'm friends with the local black man".

[solentstars]

Haha.

 

 

Nope nope nope. Can't be true.

 

Everyone is just lying about UKIP and nige. They're all just jealous. We're nice really.

well you got to admit ukip has hit its target market ..like the old saying theres none so blind they can,t see lol..anyway let them have there day in the sun when they do well in the euro elections with its low turnouts,this time next year at the general election they will not win a single seat and i expect a majority of the crusty reactionary old right wing tories who follow them will return to the fold except even though cameron is glad to rid the party of its extreme elements has he continue to modernise.