ISIS recruiting in Oxford Street - London

[mightysaints]

How stupid can our leaders be letting this happen. It's like seeing the different factions in Ireland during the troubles recruiting in regent st and that was never allowed. I am all for free speech but this is just plain wrong

[hypochondriac]

Source?

[Batman]

live and let live. Freedom of Speech and all that

if we silence these people we will be no worse than Hitler

[Hatch]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/radical-students-seen-handing-out-leaflets-on-oxford-street-encouraging-british-muslims-to-join-isis-9665280.html

[pap]

World was really dangerous with Saddam about, wasn't it?

 

[buctootim]

How stupid can our leaders be letting this happen. It's like seeing the different factions in Ireland during the troubles recruiting in regent st and that was never allowed. I am all for free speech but this is just plain wrong

 

There is a major difference in law between allowing free speech and recruiting for terrorism.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2648480/Brits-returning-fighting-Syria-face-life-jail-new-criminal-offence-committing-terrorism-abroad.html

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-woman-convicted-funding-terrorism-syria-24964256

[Grey Crab]

People complain when 'foreigners come over here and take our jobs'. Now you're complaining when they come over here and offer jobs. They just can't win.

[Smirking_Saint]

World was really dangerous with Saddam about, wasn't it?

 

 

Has this got specific relevance here papster ?

[pap]

Has this got specific relevance here papster ?

 

ISIS wouldn't exist without the dismantling of the Iraqi state.

 

We could have been dealing with one dictator quite happy to dictate within his own borders.

 

See also: Libya.

[Smirking_Saint]

ISIS wouldn't exist without the dismantling of the Iraqi state.

 

We could have been dealing with one dictator quite happy to dictate within his own borders.

 

See also: Libya.

 

Ahh, I see the angle

 

Whilst that is very true (i imagine see also afghanistan (good at this arent we )) Im not entirely sure we should be allowing an organisation like ISIS to openly recruit on the streets of our capital city (if at all true) but then realistically they're only going to do it in private anyway.

[Polaroid Saint]

ISIS wouldn't exist without the dismantling of the Iraqi state.

 

We could have been dealing with one dictator quite happy to dictate within his own borders.

 

See also: Libya.

I know you don't want this either though Pap; 'our' governments supporting dictators! THAT is not the model we wish to protect or promote surely?

 

Weirdly, ISIS have, by bloodily creating their Islamic State, set in motion a potentially beneficial redrawing of the map in Middle East. Give it a "few years", and an independent Islamic state will be recognised internationally, as will a Sunni state (probably southern Iraq), Kurdistan, a more 'democratic' coalition of Saudi states, a free Palestine and a separate Christian enclave in the Levant...

 

...a 'few years' might be 10 or 100 but this will happen, it must, it needs to. Only the gods know how much blood will be shed to get there or how 'free' the states will be after, but these rebels are actually doing something the west should have thought about (more seriously) decades ago.

[pap]

I know you don't want this either though Pap; 'our' governments supporting dictators! THAT is not the model we wish to protect or promote surely?

 

Weirdly, ISIS have, by bloodily creating their Islamic State, set in motion a potentially beneficial redrawing of the map in Middle East. Give it a "few years", and an independent Islamic state will be recognised internationally, as will a Sunni state (probably southern Iraq), Kurdistan, a more 'democratic' coalition of Saudi states, a free Palestine and a separate Christian enclave in the Levant...

 

...a 'few years' might be 10 or 100 but this will happen, it must, it needs to. Only the gods know how much blood will be shed to get there or how 'free' the states will be after, but these rebels are actually doing something the west should have thought about (more seriously) decades ago.

 

We already do support dictators, rather hypocritically.

 

I really liked all the "Russia is anti-gay" stuff in the media, when a law was passed making it illegal to promote homosexual lifestyles to children.

 

Homosexuality carries the death penalty in Saudi Arabia. The dictators that run that country have been our allies for decades, and they are not the only autocracy we're mates with. You don't see much press about their intolerance.

Edited 14 August, 2014 by pap

[ecuk268]

We already do support dictators, rather hypocritically.

 

Homosexuality carries the death penalty in Saudi Arabia. The dictators that run that country have been our allies for decades, and they are not the only autocracy we're mates with. You don't see much press about their intolerance.

 

But they but loads of weapons from us so they must be OK (and they've got lots of oil).

[Polaroid Saint]

We already do support dictators, rather hypocritically.

 

I really liked all the "Russia is anti-gay" stuff in the mida, when a law was passed making it illegal to promote homosexual lifestyles to children.

 

Homosexuality carries the death penalty in Saudi Arabia. The dictators that run that country have been our allies for decades, and they are not the only autocracy we're mates with. You don't see much press about their intolerance.

 

Yes, 'we' - by which I mean the governments or vested interests of the West, support and promote and prop up and create dictators everywhere it suits us. As you say, it is a lot easier to deal with one tyrant than it is an elected leadership of a genuine democracy (see US and South American relations of the last 15years!). Its old school imperialism by a different name. You are absolutely right that our media is very selective too; but there are certain cultural bogey men that do not tend to change that often (Eg the Russians) whereas others are fine for some reason (Shakey Sheiks).

 

BUT, 'we' - by which I mean you and I and others (leftish? Independent? Alternative? Dunno how you want to describe yourself?) who do NOT support the traditional puppet/tyrant model need to find an alternative - even in theory (forget practicalities for now) - for allowing other currently 'non democratic' countries to find their path to allowing individual freedoms to their citizens.

 

We (the leftists) often talk about Peoples and Countries being allowed to work it out for themselves (as foreign intervention normally has strings attached). Kinda a global version of the Prime Directive. This never used to happen in 'important' places (is where there are resources), but it now, mostly as the west is skint and Oil is not AS important anymore. Problem with this is, just as many people tend to die as when the US starts bombing, so its lose lose in the short term, but in the long term, countries must be self determined.

 

What is happening with the ISIS now is bloody, zealous and uncoordinated violence in many places (one key ISIS leader is a 23 year kid who has known nothing but an insurgent lifestyle, FFS). HOWEVER (and from a purely theoretical standpoint) it is exactly the sort of internal conflict that results in the formation of countries and the (temporary, always temporary) establishing of peace.

 

Should we allow an Islamic State in central Iraq? Yes, as I believe it will led to a fairer, freer middle east in the long long term, including more democratic ruling systems across the Arab states.

[pap]

But they but loads of weapons from us so they must be OK (and they've got lots of oil).

 

Yeah, that'd be the pity of letting much of our manufacturing go overseas, with the notable exception of military industrial. If all you've got to sell is weapons, fair chance your customers might be a bit dodgy. Oil doesn't hurt either.

[hypochondriac]

Tbf, sunni and shia have apparently managed to get on fine until we came and armed Isis in Syria. Now all we hear in the media over here is sunni against shia when the reality is that that has never been the conflict at all. It's just wrong.

[buctootim]

Should we allow an Islamic State in central Iraq? Yes, as I believe it will led to a fairer, freer middle east in the long long term, including more democratic ruling systems across the Arab states.

 

How will an ISIS led Islamic state lead to more dmeocratic ruling systems? They not only dont believe in freedom of choice of religion, or sexuality but also of politics. At moment you have plurality of states in the middle east which even if if most of the governments are totalitarian at least they represent the different cultures of their people. ISIS would sweep that away.

[hypochondriac]

Yes, 'we' - by which I mean the governments or vested interests of the West, support and promote and prop up and create dictators everywhere it suits us. As you say, it is a lot easier to deal with one tyrant than it is an elected leadership of a genuine democracy (see US and South American relations of the last 15years!). Its old school imperialism by a different name. You are absolutely right that our media is very selective too; but there are certain cultural bogey men that do not tend to change that often (Eg the Russians) whereas others are fine for some reason (Shakey Sheiks).

 

BUT, 'we' - by which I mean you and I and others (leftish? Independent? Alternative? Dunno how you want to describe yourself?) who do NOT support the traditional puppet/tyrant model need to find an alternative - even in theory (forget practicalities for now) - for allowing other currently 'non democratic' countries to find their path to allowing individual freedoms to their citizens.

 

We (the leftists) often talk about Peoples and Countries being allowed to work it out for themselves (as foreign intervention normally has strings attached). Kinda a global version of the Prime Directive. This never used to happen in 'important' places (is where there are resources), but it now, mostly as the west is skint and Oil is not AS important anymore. Problem with this is, just as many people tend to die as when the US starts bombing, so its lose lose in the short term, but in the long term, countries must be self determined.

 

What is happening with the ISIS now is bloody, zealous and uncoordinated violence in many places (one key ISIS leader is a 23 year kid who has known nothing but an insurgent lifestyle, FFS). HOWEVER (and from a purely theoretical standpoint) it is exactly the sort of internal conflict that results in the formation of countries and the (temporary, always temporary) establishing of peace.

 

Should we allow an Islamic State in central Iraq? Yes, as I believe it will led to a fairer, freer middle east in the long long term, including more democratic ruling systems across the Arab states.

 

That's absolute nonsense. Do you have experience in Iraq? Have you spoken to people that have lived there and others who still live there now?

[Polaroid Saint]

Tbf, sunni and shia have apparently managed to get on fine until we came and armed Isis in Syria. Now all we hear in the media over here is sunni against shia when the reality is that that has never been the conflict at all. It's just wrong.

????!!!!!

 

Sunni and Shi'a factions have been a loggerheads for centuries, sir!

 

The Persian and Mongol Empires treatment of non believers.

The Iraq/Iran war.

The entire basis of Saddam's program of terror.

The split between 'free Iraq' since the war.

Syria's decades long internal conflict.

 

All of these have their 'roots' (and certainly their rhetoric) in Sunni/Shi'a split going back centuries.

[hypochondriac]

????!!!!!

 

Sunni and Shi'a factions have been a loggerheads for centuries, sir!

 

The Persian and Mongol Empires treatment of non believers.

The Iraq/Iran war.

The entire basis of Saddam's program of terror.

The split between 'free Iraq' since the war.

Syria's decades long internal conflict.

 

All of these have their 'roots' (and certainly their rhetoric) in Sunni/Shi'a split going back centuries.

 

Thanks "sir" but I know the history. My information comes from conversations from people who live there. Their view is that almost all of the sunni versus shia rhetoric is manufactured in the media and used by those in political power. My father in laws parents come from different sunni and shia tribes so he knows what he is talking about and I had conversations with a girl who lives in Iraq and had come here for the first time this week to study.

Edited 14 August, 2014 by hypochondriac

[CB Saint]

World was really dangerous with Saddam about, wasn't it?

 

 

Was if you were a kurd

[Polaroid Saint]

That's absolute nonsense. Do you have experience in Iraq? Have you spoken to people that have lived there and others who still live there now?

I love that you call my entire post nonsense, with its various different points and questions about what 'we' should be thinking, feeling, what 'in theory' would be a solution. Alas you have already proven you know incredibly little about it yourself with your earlier comment about Sunni/Shi'a conflict.

 

What experience of Iraq do I need? I did not live through the English Civil war but I know what effect it had on the people and the politics of the nation and those nations around it. I am talking theory man, theory!

[hypochondriac]

I love that you call my entire post nonsense, with its various different points and questions about what 'we' should be thinking, feeling, what 'in theory' would be a solution. Alas you have already proven you know incredibly little about it yourself with your earlier comment about Sunni/Shi'a conflict.

 

What experience of Iraq do I need? I did not live through the English Civil war but I know what effect it had on the people and the politics of the nation and those nations around it. I am talking theory man, theory!

 

Hilarious that you say I know very little when my information comes directly from people who actually live there and yours cones from a text book or the news. What was nonsense was your suggestion that we should allow Isis to take hold in Iraq. The Americans have already armed them so the least we can do is sort out the mess we have created. We should have left it alone in the first place but that was never going to happen with oil at stake.

[buctootim]

Was if you were a kurd

 

or a Marsh arab

[buctootim]

Hilarious that you say I know very little when my information comes directly from people who actually live there and yours cones from a text book or the news.

 

Thats a dumb post on many levels. Like saying I know what the result of last UK election was because I spoke to two people and they both voted green.

[hypochondriac]

Thats a dumb post on many levels. Like saying I know what the result of last UK election was because I spoke to two people and they both voted green.

 

Ive spoken extensively to a number of people on the issue. Because it interests me and because it is something close to their hearts for obvious reasons. Of course I don't claim to know definitively what is going on, but I'd wager you would get a much better idea by talking to a number of Iraqis, people who have been and live there and people who have studied their own history and know the issues in their own country. The situation is portrayed very differently than how it is in the western media. Of course they all have an agenda but I tend to believe the people who have always lived there when they tell me what the situation is really like.

Edited 14 August, 2014 by hypochondriac

[Polaroid Saint]

How will an ISIS led Islamic state lead to more dmeocratic ruling systems? They not only dont believe in freedom of choice of religion, or sexuality but also of politics. At moment you have plurality of states in the middle east which even if if most of the governments are totalitarian at least they represent the different cultures of their people. ISIS would sweep that away.

 

I quite agree that ISIS are a bunch of reactionary religious fanatics that should not have control over others lives and freedoms and rights.

 

It is my postulation that an Islamic State would need to be countered by alternative states, eg a Christian enclave in the Levant, a Sunni state in Iraq, Kurdistan at the very least. These would be - in reaction to the IS - freer and more democratic. I am not suggesting it is the prefered way to bring individual rights and freedoms to the world but it is a (long and bloody) possibility.

 

I am looking at European history really to see how quickly waring factions of thousands of years very quickly coalesced in the 18th and 19th centuries, almost to the point of a European super state just 100 years later (or 400 years after the great protestant/catholic conflicts).

 

My point (although it is much a question to be discussed as any deep held opinion) is this could happen in the middle east and the aggressive construction of an Islamic State is the first step (my opinion is it should have been done years ago, non aggressively).

 

I am not talking about 'by next week' but generations of effort.

[hypochondriac]

I quite agree that ISIS are a bunch of reactionary religious fanatics that should not have control over others lives and freedoms and rights.

 

It is my postulation that an Islamic State would need to be countered by alternative states, eg a Christian enclave in the Levant, a Sunni state in Iraq, Kurdistan at the very least. These would be - in reaction to the IS - freer and more democratic. I am not suggesting it is the prefered way to bring individual rights and freedoms to the world but it is a (long and bloody) possibility.

 

I am looking at European history really to see how quickly waring factions of thousands of years very quickly coalesced in the 18th and 19th centuries, almost to the point of a European super state just 100 years later (or 400 years after the great protestant/catholic conflicts).

 

My point (although it is much a question to be discussed as any deep held opinion) is this could happen in the middle east and the aggressive construction of an Islamic State is the first step (my opinion is it should have been done years ago, non aggressively).

 

I am not talking about 'by next week' but generations of effort.

 

I think you. Misunderstand the mindset of these people. They would not tolerate a Christian enclave or anything of that nature. If it was set up they would immediately attempt to wipe it from the earth. They don't want peace, they want the entire middle East to bend to their will.

[holepuncture]

How stupid can our leaders be letting this happen. It's like seeing the different factions in Ireland during the troubles recruiting in regent st and that was never allowed. I am all for free speech but this is just plain wrong

 

Source? I have witnessed various protests by groups dressed entirely in black with black flags featuring Islamic text, around the west end over the years. They normally congregate around Marble Arch to Green Park areas, though ive never associated them with ISIS in the past, just general hate preachers.

 

Tony Blair warned us about this recently, saying our failure to intervene in Syria will cost us for many years to come, as the 'holy war' will come to our streets. Now we have University students, people who have jobs/careers etc, changing their life course forever as they go to fight with a view to becoming a martyr!

 

Many wealthy Arabs are spending their summer holiday/countries cash in London at the moment, I imagine they will be embarrassed by any ISIS presence in London.

 

Assads wife is a regular around Mayfair!!!

[pap]

Yes, 'we' - by which I mean the governments or vested interests of the West, support and promote and prop up and create dictators everywhere it suits us. As you say, it is a lot easier to deal with one tyrant than it is an elected leadership of a genuine democracy (see US and South American relations of the last 15years!). Its old school imperialism by a different name. You are absolutely right that our media is very selective too; but there are certain cultural bogey men that do not tend to change that often (Eg the Russians) whereas others are fine for some reason (Shakey Sheiks).

 

BUT, 'we' - by which I mean you and I and others (leftish? Independent? Alternative? Dunno how you want to describe yourself?) who do NOT support the traditional puppet/tyrant model need to find an alternative - even in theory (forget practicalities for now) - for allowing other currently 'non democratic' countries to find their path to allowing individual freedoms to their citizens.

 

We (the leftists) often talk about Peoples and Countries being allowed to work it out for themselves (as foreign intervention normally has strings attached). Kinda a global version of the Prime Directive. This never used to happen in 'important' places (is where there are resources), but it now, mostly as the west is skint and Oil is not AS important anymore. Problem with this is, just as many people tend to die as when the US starts bombing, so its lose lose in the short term, but in the long term, countries must be self determined.

 

What is happening with the ISIS now is bloody, zealous and uncoordinated violence in many places (one key ISIS leader is a 23 year kid who has known nothing but an insurgent lifestyle, FFS). HOWEVER (and from a purely theoretical standpoint) it is exactly the sort of internal conflict that results in the formation of countries and the (temporary, always temporary) establishing of peace.

 

Should we allow an Islamic State in central Iraq? Yes, as I believe it will led to a fairer, freer middle east in the long long term, including more democratic ruling systems across the Arab states.

 

I'm not sure that "democracy" (the package) is something that we should be trying to export to places that may not be ready for it. I'm with Russell Brand on the voting thing; I'm not sure it has much practical consequence. It's all neo-liberal, all the time. Mileage varies around the world.

 

The most important thing about established democratic countries is freedom of speech and the right of protest. I'm not sure that you can just "give" these concepts to people, particularly if they have lived under a dictatorship, or already moderate themselves on the basis of cultural consideration.

 

The West was never really interested in promoting democracy in Iraq, just creating enough tension to reap the benefits of the invasion. That's why we were training death squads, and perhaps why the British army had to attack a police station with a tank, after two SAS operatives, dressed as Arabs and going around planting bombs, were arrested by Iraqi locals.

 

ISIS probably aren't the answer for nation building, but saying that, I don't know what the answer is. The West has acted in poor faith throughout, and has helped to hand much of the Islamic world to extremists, in many cases funding them via proxy. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that ISIS was an intelligence operation.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/08/west-training-syrian-rebels-jordan

http://republicbroadcasting.org/blowback-u-s-trained-isis-at-secret-jordan-base/

[Polaroid Saint]

Hilarious that you say I know very little when my information comes directly from people who actually live there and yours cones from a text book or the news. What was nonsense was your suggestion that we should allow Isis to take hold in Iraq. The Americans have already armed them so the least we can do is sort out the mess we have created. We should have left it alone in the first place but that was never going to happen with oil at stake.

 

Yes, my information comes from text books (and university lecturers, and religious works, and news stories, and documentaries and popular culture). Which obviously makes it wrong. I will forget EVERYTHING from history and base my entire working knowledge on the opinions, thoughts and feelings of others. I will also make sure I chose the opinions of people who may be so closely involved they are unable to be subjective!

 

Seriously though, perhaps if you read up on the subject you would be able to get more fully formed opinions from your friends in Iraq? Might be nice for them if you took the time out to find out about their cultural history before speaking to them next?

 

However, I take your counter that my suggestion that will allow ISIS to take hold in Iraq is nonsense. Yes. It is nonsense. It is a horrible and stupid idea in the short term. But long term, forgetting those human beings and people we may know and love are in danger, I can see it is a possible opening for the international community to start rebuilding the middle east around more democratic structures.

 

As you say, we should have left it alone in the first place, and at some point we will have to leave it alone. Perhaps the Iraqis and their neighbours can be less bloody than the Europeans, but somehow I doubt it.

[hypochondriac]

I agree with pap over this by the way. Can't be bothered to argue over this issue. What pap is saying tallies broadly with what Iraqis themselves say and I expect someone like dubai Phil would say similar. It's wrong though because lecturers, textbooks and documentaries say so...

[whelk]

ISIS are similar to the SS. Nasty indoctrinated bastards who love the power of bullying.

[Polaroid Saint]

I agree with pap over this by the way. Can't be bothered to argue over this issue. What pap is saying tallies broadly with what Iraqis themselves say and I expect someone like dubai Phil would say similar. It's wrong though because lecturers, textbooks and documentaries say so...

 

Hypo, you are a donkey sometimes! You claimed there was no historical conflict between Sunni and Shi'a until western intervention in Syria. I called you out on tha, sorry for that, but dude let it go and admit you we're wrong! Don't grab hold of me qualifying what my resources were for this historical truth (books, lecturers etc) and try to crowbar in the suggestion I am dismissing the thoughts and feelings of your friends in the Middle East! I have no idea what their situations are (I used to have an Iraqi friend who was a fully paid up ba'ath party member, not sure I would take his view as objective!)

 

My fault here is I am TRYING to look at the situation theoretically and in context in the long term. Not saying I am right, but attempting to look at a much much bigger picture. I am ignoring my instincts to crave peace and look to history for pointers.

 

I agree with Pap that 'democracy' is something of a busted flush and trying to force and enforce it is an idiocy and most often a lie. Problem is I am so far left I meet the right on the way round the back sometimes; not good! But I do believe firmly in the three basic freedoms (Expression, Ownership and Movement) but also understand the world doesn't work like that. Yet.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I don't agree that democracy can't grow in this region because the Arab people will always remain too backward to handle it. It seems to me universally true that people everywhere yearn to have their voice heard and for their desires to count for something. I say this trend can only grow unstoppably as education and exposure to the outside world (and its media) grows.

 

Nor am I convinced that redrawing the borders of the Middle East to create new religiously homologous (or do we mean ethnically 'pure') states in the region is really the right road to go down either - even if that were possible anyway. There is perhaps a strong case for the creation of a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq, but if you understood anything of the history of this region and how Turkey (an important NATO ally) is likely to react to that idea then you'd also know just how problematic even that limited move is. I must add that the notion that we should prepare ourselves for centuries of bloodshed while this proposed mass redrawing of borders process runs it course is a true 'council of despair' if ever I heard one.

 

Dare I suggest that what we might loosely call 'the Arab world' really needs is not new lines on maps, but rather the wisdom to abandon its arcane Sunni/Shia divide, the pragmatism to accept the unpalatable truth that Israel is not going away anytime soon, and above all the courage to face up to modernity and all that implies. Only then might the term 'Middle East' not inevitably have to be synonymous with the term 'Middle Ages'.

 

.... and with that I log off to await the usual suspects and yet another oh-so-predictable 'but its all the USA's fault' diatribe.

Edited 14 August, 2014 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Tokyo-Saint]

Do they have a strict no non Muslim policy or can anybody join?

[Killers Knee]

The Hedge Fund I work for owns a College in Oxford, hope they don't recruit our Phd students, we need them to make ridiculous profits!!!

[buctootim]

The Hedge Fund I work for owns a College in Oxford, hope they don't recruit our Phd students, we need them to make ridiculous profits!!!

 

Indoctrinate them, have them fly out tob Iraq at their own expense, seize some oil fields then their corrupt leader sells the hedgies the oil at half price on the grey market. Good business starategy that.

[Window Cleaner]

Isis being the Oxford Uni reserve crew ??

[pap]

Dutch official suspended for tweeting that ISIS is a Zionist plot.

 

A project management official at the Dutch National Cyber Security Center has been suspended after tweeting that the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS), now known as the Islamic State (IS), was a “Zionist plot”.

 

According to the English-language NL Times website the employee, Yasmina Haifi, wrote, “ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. It is a preconceived plan of Zionists who want to deliberately make Islam look bad.”

 

http://www.nltimes.nl/2014/08/13/isis-zionist-plot-security-official-suspended/

 

Tallies with accounts of fighters being trained by Western forces, but needs still needs more substantiation and corroboration. One look at the job title would suggest potential inside information, but it could be like, just her opinion, man.

 

ISIS being Western-controlled makes a lot of sense. A story has been doing the rounds for a month, citing some non-existent Snowden source, that the ISIS leader Al-Baghdadi is a Western asset. Now while the easily debunkable Snowden part has been easily debunked, the reality is that we've got a horde of contemporary barbarians, calling themselves Islamic, rampaging around Iraq under black flags of war and rather handily for Israel, deciding to commit a widely-reported genocide on Iraqi Christians at the same time that Israel was firing ordnance at Palestinian citizens.

 

None of the US-backed dictators have been hit by ISIS, nor has Israel. Coincidentally, those countries funded and armed the Syrian rebels, including our "Al-Qaeda allies" (sorry, still makes me chuckle). The existence of a group like ISIS benefits those that are conducting their own campaigns of terror. Israel may have been bundling into Gaza, but ISIS were raping, decapitating, performing forced conversions, and if that didn't work - genocide. As obscene as it is to say so, Israel almost look civilised by comparison - and the comparison was repeatedly made in both mainstream and social media.

 

When you consider the propaganda impact, the messages that are perpetuated (barbarous savages, etc), and the media cover that the outrage over Iraqi Christians provided, you'd have to conclude that ISIS has been a benefit to Israel. Controlled by them or not, if you've achieved that, you've got to be in the running for least effective marauding Muslim army ever.

Edited 16 August, 2014 by pap

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

As our broadcast and print media overflow yet again with further (graphic) evidence attesting to both the scale and the medieval style savagery of atrocities committed by the fighters of the new 'Islamic State' in Northern Iraq, it seems remarkable to this observer of events that those here on the left who were so very keen to parade their humanitarian credentials and condemn Israel only a few days ago, now seem to have lost their voice for some reason - I am assuming here that the risible suggestion above that this 'IS' might be a tool of Israel is not meant to be taken seriously by grown ups.

 

To my way of thinking if your sense of empathy for your fellow Human Being's suffering is so very malleable that it can in effect be turned on or off at some politically motivated whim ... well I for one have to question just how genuine it was in the first place.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

As our broadcast and print media overflow yet again with further (graphic) evidence attesting to both the scale and the medieval style savagery of atrocities committed by the fighters of the new 'Islamic State' in Northern Iraq, it seems remarkable to this observer of events that those here on the left who were so very keen to parade their humanitarian credentials and condemn Israel only a few days ago, now seem to have lost their voice for some reason - I am assuming here that the risible suggestion above that this 'IS' might be a tool of Israel is not meant to be taken seriously by grown ups.

 

To my way of thinking if your sense of empathy for your fellow Human Being's suffering is so very malleable that it can in effect be turned on or off at some politically motivated whim ... well I for one have to question just how genuine it was in the first place.

[melmacian_saint]

Well it's only a matter of time before these lovely minorities impose their "multicultural" sectarianism in our territories. Unless a cheaply massifiable alternative to oil is found.

 

I don't think Ms. Warsi's surroundings would've been too happy if she had left office for disagreeing with the Government's inaction on the barbaric, medieval progress of the IS.

[melmacian_saint]

Well it's only a matter of time before these lovely minorities impose their "multicultural" sectarianism in our territories. Unless a cheaply massifiable alternative to oil is found.

 

I don't think Ms. Warsi's surroundings would've been too happy if she had left office for disagreeing with the Government's inaction on the barbaric, medieval progress of the IS.

[pap]

As our broadcast and print media overflow yet again with further (graphic) evidence attesting to both the scale and the medieval style savagery of atrocities committed by the fighters of the new 'Islamic State' in Northern Iraq, it seems remarkable to this observer of events that those here on the left who were so very keen to parade their humanitarian credentials and condemn Israel only a few days ago, now seem to have lost their voice for some reason - I am assuming here that the risible suggestion above that this 'IS' might be a tool of Israel is not meant to be taken seriously by grown ups.

 

Really appreciate the sterling effort at self-categorisation here, Charlie. It's first rate. Immediately, we can see that you are the kind of feeble-minded individual that is lulled into the spectacle of comparative horror. The sort of chap that'll be a relentless apologist for civilian slaughter in Gaza, then demand why those campaigning for Gazans have "lost their voice".

 

First off, do you actually understand what protesting is all about? The general idea is to voice dissatisfaction at the policies of a government, usually your own, in the hope that the attendant political pressure will get them to change course. The UK government was selling arms to Israel and refusing to condemn a campaign of violence against Gazans.

 

Where would an IS(IS) protest take place? Do they have an embassy that people can protest? Which branch of government is actively supporting their policies?

 

Where do people protest IS(IS), Charlie?

 

To my way of thinking if your sense of empathy for your fellow Human Being's suffering is so very malleable that it can in effect be turned on or off at some politically motivated whim ... well I for one have to question just how genuine it was in the first place.

 

Congratulations on the able demonstration of your "way of thinking". We were all very impressed.

[pap]

As our broadcast and print media overflow yet again with further (graphic) evidence attesting to both the scale and the medieval style savagery of atrocities committed by the fighters of the new 'Islamic State' in Northern Iraq, it seems remarkable to this observer of events that those here on the left who were so very keen to parade their humanitarian credentials and condemn Israel only a few days ago, now seem to have lost their voice for some reason - I am assuming here that the risible suggestion above that this 'IS' might be a tool of Israel is not meant to be taken seriously by grown ups.

 

Really appreciate the sterling effort at self-categorisation here, Charlie. It's first rate. Immediately, we can see that you are the kind of feeble-minded individual that is lulled into the spectacle of comparative horror. The sort of chap that'll be a relentless apologist for civilian slaughter in Gaza, then demand why those campaigning for Gazans have "lost their voice".

 

First off, do you actually understand what protesting is all about? The general idea is to voice dissatisfaction at the policies of a government, usually your own, in the hope that the attendant political pressure will get them to change course. The UK government was selling arms to Israel and refusing to condemn a campaign of violence against Gazans.

 

Where would an IS(IS) protest take place? Do they have an embassy that people can protest? Which branch of government is actively supporting their policies?

 

Where do people protest IS(IS), Charlie?

 

To my way of thinking if your sense of empathy for your fellow Human Being's suffering is so very malleable that it can in effect be turned on or off at some politically motivated whim ... well I for one have to question just how genuine it was in the first place.

 

Congratulations on the able demonstration of your "way of thinking". We were all very impressed.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Where should you protest my dear Pap?

 

Well I don't think 'gorgeous' George Galloway could make it this time, busy crusading for justice in the Middle East perhaps, but I see that some of your other mates decided to ransack a branch of Tesco's in Birmingham last Saturday. That seems a reasonable thing to do afterall because its a well known fact that Tesco's was founded by a bloke called Cohen (boo!) and it may have even outraged left wing sensitivities further by having some Israeli merchandise on its shelf's. Next I suppose that front for radical Zionism known as 'Marks & Spencer' better watch out ...

 

My suspicions remain that the real motivation behind your recent contributions on here are more political in nature rather than strictly humanitarian. Indeed, to be honest about it, I don't really believe that you (and your type in general) could give a 'tinkers cuss' for the Palestinians of Gaza, or the Yazidi of Iraq for that matter, as long as they provide a useful excuse to further your outdated leftist agenda. That is what really interests you is it not? The three or four attempts it took to get you to concede - at long last - that the murder of Israeli children too might just have been morally dubious kind of confirms that suspicion.

 

Moving on, I wonder has your ceaseless Googling provided any more 'evidence' that ISIS was created by Mossad yet? Because twenty more pages of yet another (deeply paranoid) conspiracy theory would help pass the time admirably.

Edited 18 August, 2014 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Where should you protest my dear Pap?

 

Well I don't think 'gorgeous' George Galloway could make it this time, busy crusading for justice in the Middle East perhaps, but I see that some of your other mates decided to ransack a branch of Tesco's in Birmingham last Saturday. That seems a reasonable thing to do afterall because its a well known fact that Tesco's was founded by a bloke called Cohen (boo!) and it may have even outraged left wing sensitivities further by having some Israeli merchandise on its shelf's. Next I suppose that front for radical Zionism known as 'Marks & Spencer' better watch out ...

 

My suspicions remain that the real motivation behind your recent contributions on here are more political in nature rather than strictly humanitarian. Indeed, to be honest about it, I don't really believe that you (and your type in general) could give a 'tinkers cuss' for the Palestinians of Gaza, or the Yazidi of Iraq for that matter, as long as they provide a useful excuse to further your outdated leftist agenda. That is what really interests you is it not? The three or four attempts it took to get you to concede - at long last - that the murder of Israeli children too might just have been morally dubious kind of confirms that suspicion.

 

Moving on, I wonder has your ceaseless Googling provided any more 'evidence' that ISIS was created by Mossad yet? Because twenty more pages of yet another (deeply paranoid) conspiracy theory would help pass the time admirably.

Edited 18 August, 2014 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[pap]

Where should you protest my dear Pap?

 

Well I don't think 'gorgeous' George Galloway could make it this time, busy crusading for justice in the Middle East perhaps, but I see that some of your other mates decided to ransack a branch of Tesco's in Birmingham last Saturday. That seems a reasonable thing to do afterall because its a well known fact that Tesco's was founded by a bloke called Cohen (boo!) and it may have even outraged left wing sensitivities further by having some Israeli merchandise on its shelf's. Next I suppose that front for radical Zionism known as 'Marks & Spencer' better watch out ...

 

My suspicions remain that the real motivation behind your recent contributions on here are more political in nature rather than strictly humanitarian. Indeed, to be honest about it, I don't really believe that you (and your type in general) could give a 'tinkers cuss' for the Palestinians of Gaza, or the Yazidi of Iraq for that matter, as long as they provide a useful excuse to further your outdated leftist agenda. That is what really interests you is it not? The three or four attempts it took to get you to concede - at long last - that the murder of Israeli children too might just have been morally dubious kind of confirms that suspicion.

 

Moving on, I wonder has your ceaseless Googling provided any more 'evidence' that ISIS was created my Mossad yet? Because twenty more pages of yet another (deeply paranoid) conspiracy theory would help pass the time admirably.

 

Man pulled up on his own bullshít inexplicably decides more bullshít is the answer

 

Meanwhile, SaintsWeb seeks new self-appointed expert of history as last one dies in bloody, unwitting suicide.

[pap]

Where should you protest my dear Pap?

 

Well I don't think 'gorgeous' George Galloway could make it this time, busy crusading for justice in the Middle East perhaps, but I see that some of your other mates decided to ransack a branch of Tesco's in Birmingham last Saturday. That seems a reasonable thing to do afterall because its a well known fact that Tesco's was founded by a bloke called Cohen (boo!) and it may have even outraged left wing sensitivities further by having some Israeli merchandise on its shelf's. Next I suppose that front for radical Zionism known as 'Marks & Spencer' better watch out ...

 

My suspicions remain that the real motivation behind your recent contributions on here are more political in nature rather than strictly humanitarian. Indeed, to be honest about it, I don't really believe that you (and your type in general) could give a 'tinkers cuss' for the Palestinians of Gaza, or the Yazidi of Iraq for that matter, as long as they provide a useful excuse to further your outdated leftist agenda. That is what really interests you is it not? The three or four attempts it took to get you to concede - at long last - that the murder of Israeli children too might just have been morally dubious kind of confirms that suspicion.

 

Moving on, I wonder has your ceaseless Googling provided any more 'evidence' that ISIS was created my Mossad yet? Because twenty more pages of yet another (deeply paranoid) conspiracy theory would help pass the time admirably.

 

Man pulled up on his own bullshít inexplicably decides more bullshít is the answer

 

Meanwhile, SaintsWeb seeks new self-appointed expert of history as last one dies in bloody, unwitting suicide.