norwaysaint Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Where do you get this information? The CIA said it has saved lives. The CIA has tried to hold this line, but the examination of all of the facts has shown "The information the CIA collected this way failed to secure information that foiled any threats". Also "None of 20 cases of counterterrorism "successes" attributed to the techniques led to unique or otherwise unavailable intelligence". So they only gave information already available and none of their information stopped a single threat. Where did I get this? Just about every article on the report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 The CIA has tried to hold this line, but the examination of all of the facts has shown "The information the CIA collected this way failed to secure information that foiled any threats". Also "None of 20 cases of counterterrorism "successes" attributed to the techniques led to unique or otherwise unavailable intelligence". So they only gave information already available and none of their information stopped a single threat. Where did I get this? Just about every article on the report. Different agency, but did you know that around half of the FBI's anti-terror successes are basically instances of entrapment? They radicalise someone, gee 'em up to do something, then nick 'em. Gotta justify that budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 This must be a wind up! Nobody can have failed to understand that much of the report! Yes, everybody talks, that's exactly the problem. It's no good if you just do something that makes everybody talk, you need to get the people who know something to say something useful, and it's been shown that that's not what torture accomplishes, it just makes everybody talk. The comment "I'm not sure where this proof has come from but I expect if it didn't work they wouldn't do it." is incredible. It didn't work, that's what the report showed. Do-gooders? Is everybody trying to find ways of stopping terrorism that actually work a do-gooder? Or are you only doing good if you stick to methods that don't actually get you anywhere? You're either on a wind up or this whole thing has gone entirely over your head. From what I have read from accounts of military people who have actually been tortured it does work. It may not be a very efficient way of getting information but you still get more information that if they say nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 The rise of ISIS has come about based on the torture handed out in Guantanemo. I don't think torture is a good idea, or the best way to get information. But that statement is just nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Different agency, but did you know that around half of the FBI's anti-terror successes are basically instances of entrapment? They radicalise someone, gee 'em up to do something, then nick 'em. Gotta justify that budget. I can't imagine it's actually that high, but I wouldn't be surprised that it happened. As a worker in central London (I actually work on Oxford Street) I never know how to react to all these foiled plots - on one hand it's good that them people are being found, but on the other hand it is darn worrying that so many are being caught (Pap, I'm sure you'll have an opinion on whether these are actual plots or a certain amount of propaganda to keep us supporting Government actions and further changes to the legal framework around terrorist offences). There have been rumours about Mumbai style attacks, beheadings on the street, further tube bombings. It's not something you can sit and worry about on a day to day basis, but still pretty worrying all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 (edited) I don't think torture is a good idea, or the best way to get information. But that statement is just nonsense. They recuit new members by showing video's of US atrocities and torture reports from Guantanemo apparently, was listening to it being debated on 5Live last night. The jumpsuits used for the prisoners during beheadings are based on those worn by inmates there. Edited 10 December, 2014 by Unbelievable Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Abroad Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Edit: double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 They recuit new members by showing video's of US atrocities and torture reports from Guantanemo apparently, was listening to it being debated on 5Live last night. The jumpsuits used for the prisoners during beheadings are based on those worn by inmates there. Maybe so, but that's not what you posted, is it? You directly linked the rise of IS to torture at Guantanamo, not just the recruitment of new members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Abroad Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 The rise of ISIS has come about based on the torture handed out in Guantanemo. This will cause more issues than the information garnered will solve. Wow, you actually believe that? Different agency, but did you know that around half of the FBI's anti-terror successes are basically instances of entrapment? They radicalise someone, gee 'em up to do something, then nick 'em. Gotta justify that budget. Did you read that on the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Maybe so, but that's not what you posted, is it? You directly linked the rise of IS to torture at Guantanamo, not just the recruitment of new members. By rise, I mean expansion, growth etc. How else would you categorise 'rise' in this context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Wow, you actually believe that? I believe that people will have joined ISIS based on seeing what happened in Guantenamo, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 (edited) I can't imagine it's actually that high, but I wouldn't be surprised that it happened. As a worker in central London (I actually work on Oxford Street) I never know how to react to all these foiled plots - on one hand it's good that them people are being found, but on the other hand it is darn worrying that so many are being caught (Pap, I'm sure you'll have an opinion on whether these are actual plots or a certain amount of propaganda to keep us supporting Government actions and further changes to the legal framework around terrorist offences). There have been rumours about Mumbai style attacks, beheadings on the street, further tube bombings. It's not something you can sit and worry about on a day to day basis, but still pretty worrying all the same. It's not really something you have to imagine. It has been widely reported. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-fbi-entrapment-is-inventing-terrorists-and-letting-bad-guys-off-the-hook-20120515 http://chicagomonitor.com/2014/07/the-newburgh-sting-hbo-documentary-explores-issue-of-fbi-entrapment/ The world is an odd place right now, much as it was around a century ago. The war on terror is as much about Western imperialism and the failure of capitalism in a post Cold War globalised environment. Western nations have let the east become their factory, and in the main, we don't make stuff anymore. Of the stuff left that we do still make, military shít is high on that list. We go to war, and we create demand for all those industries which were looking down the barrel of perpetual world peace. The US is having another schizophrenic episode, much as it did during the Spanish American war. We had a powerful lobby in the late '90s militating for a new American Century (much like Teddy Roosevelt and his cohort of adventurers at the turn of the 20th century) which massively contradicts what the US is supposed to be, the defender of freedom and the leaders of democratised people. The chickenhawks got exactly what they wanted after 9/11 - justification for pre-emptive wars in countries they wanted to invade anyway against ill-defined enemies. Edited 10 December, 2014 by pap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 By rise, I mean expansion, growth etc. How else would you categorise 'rise' in this context? Do you believe that IS would not exist in broadly it's present form had there been no torture at Guantanamo, and that the innocent people that they have executed would still be alive.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Do you believe that IS would not exist in broadly it's present form had there been no torture at Guantanamo, and that the innocent people that they have executed would still be alive.? Don't answer a question with a question. My point is that they have grown to be a bigger organisation due to these tortures and other US led atrocities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 (edited) Hypothetical situation...your wife, son, boyfriend ..whatever are in holiday somewhere, minding their own business...get kidnapped and been taken hostage and are about to have their head cut off in the next few hours.... However, in custody our is someone who knows full well where they are being kept and how to get them out..but isn't talking...Still stand by your statement or would you do what needs to be done to extract the info? Genuinely interested.... I can't for one second believe that if it became personal, you would stand by the 'human rights all men are equal, this is wrong' ********. You’re right, when things become personal 'human rights all men are equal, this is wrong' ******** is normally one of the first things to be jettisoned on the long descent into the abyss. No credible government or their agencies personalise issues such as torture. Edited 10 December, 2014 by Halo Stickman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 I believe that people will have joined ISIS based on seeing what happened in Guantenamo, yes. Just the same as people joining the IRA after Bobby Sands starved himself to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Abroad Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Don't answer a question with a question. My point is that they have grown to be a bigger organisation due to these tortures and other US led atrocities. O yea, totally. It has nothing to do with a power vacuum in northern Iraq, war in Syria and funding from Qatar. Totally a video they saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 O yea, totally. It has nothing to do with a power vacuum in northern Iraq, war in Syria and funding from Qatar. Totally a video they saw. Take it up with the bloke on 5live last night, I'm just the messenger. I do however believe that videos of the US atrocities and reports of the tortures in Guantanamo have contributed to the rise of ISIS. Fair enough if you don't believe it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Just the same as people joining the IRA after Bobby Sands starved himself to death. More akin to Bloody Sunday I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Do you believe that IS would not exist in broadly it's present form had there been no torture at Guantanamo, and that the innocent people that they have executed would still be alive.? Does your repertoire extend beyond "beggars belief" one-liners, hutch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Does your repertoire extend beyond "beggars belief" one-liners, hutch? Every post he seems exasperated beyond belief, as if there is no chance that it could happen. Like a few people on this site, they just need to open their minds a little bit. Play a bit of devils advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Abroad Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Does your repertoire extend beyond "beggars belief" one-liners, hutch? Every post he seems exasperated beyond belief, as if there is no chance that it could happen. Like a few people on this site, they just need to open their minds a little bit. Play a bit of devils advocate. Occam's razor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Occam's razor? That's fair enough, but it's not an unrealistic assumption. It's not like I'm saying that the US government have been indirectly funding ISIS or something like that, more that the war on Afghanistan and Iraq, the opening of Guantanamo and related tortures have led to an increase in ISIS members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Every post he seems exasperated beyond belief, as if there is no chance that it could happen. Like a few people on this site, they just need to open their minds a little bit. Play a bit of devils advocate. The closed-mindedness doesn't really bother me as much as you think it might, but I do get tired of the "me too" crowd. The whole point of posting here is so that you can share your views with others, yet we've an entire class of poster that chooses not to do this, in favour of asking redundant or inane questions when others actually have a go at expressing their opinions. Occam's razor? A reactionary internet version of a parasite, basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 The closed-mindedness doesn't really bother me as much as you think it might, but I do get tired of the "me too" crowd. The whole point of posting here is so that you can share your views with others, yet we've an entire class of poster that chooses not to do this, in favour of asking redundant or inane questions when others actually have a go at expressing their opinions. A reactionary internet version of a parasite, basically. Exactly. It's the incredulity that makes me laugh. How can people think that, blah, blah, blah. We don't agree on a lot of things but it doesn't mean you can't respect that persons opinion and argue a point rather than act in flabbergasted disgust and ire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Don't answer a question with a question. My point is that they have grown to be a bigger organisation due to these tortures and other US led atrocities. If you had posted that, I wouldn't have reacted. But it isn't what you posted, is it? Although I personally wouldn't use the term atrocities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Abroad Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Exactly. It's the incredulity that makes me laugh. How can people think that, blah, blah, blah. We don't agree on a lot of things but it doesn't mean you can't respect that persons opinion and argue a point rather than act in flabbergasted disgust and ire. I was called a parasite because I questioned the logic in forming your opinion. Note, no one called anybody any names before that. Your, or Pap's, opinion doesn't bother me its just blanket statements that ISIS has grown because of a video. To your previous post, yes I could definitely see how a video inspired a few disenfranchised people to travel to Iraq and lob people's heads off but those people had far deeper issues that drove them there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 I was called a parasite because I questioned the logic in forming your opinion. Note, no one called anybody any names before that. Your, or Pap's, opinion doesn't bother me its just blanket statements that ISIS has grown because of a video. To your previous post, yes I could definitely see how a video inspired a few disenfranchised people to travel to Iraq and lob people's heads off but those people had far deeper issues that drove them there. I wasn't referring to you specifically, but if the cap fits. Please don't say things are my opinions when they aren't. I'm good enough at English not to need a ghostwriter, ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 (edited) I was called a parasite because I questioned the logic in forming your opinion. Note, no one called anybody any names before that. Your, or Pap's, opinion doesn't bother me its just blanket statements that ISIS has grown because of a video. To your previous post, yes I could definitely see how a video inspired a few disenfranchised people to travel to Iraq and lob people's heads off but those people had far deeper issues that drove them there. I'm not sure myself and Pap even have the same opinion on this?! And I'm pretty sure he wasn't calling you a parasite... We're not talking about one video, we're talking about years of abuse in US based camps, contravening international law, not just a video. It's playing into extremists hands. If they need any sort of vindication for what they do they can point to this. Edited 10 December, 2014 by Unbelievable Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 I'm not sure myself and Pap even have the same opinion on this?! And I'm pretty sure he wasn't calling you a parasite... We're not talking about one video, we're talking about years of abuse in US based camps, contravening international law, not just a video. It's playing into extremists hands. If they need any sort of vindication for what they do they can point to this. They do what they do because of their extreme religious beliefs, not sure they seek any other vindication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 I'm not sure myself and Pap even have the same opinion on this?! And I'm pretty sure he wasn't calling you a parasite... I think your opinion, that US torture has been a factor in IS recruitment (or indeed, any Islamic extremist organisation), is valid. Here's a nation that says it is the leader of the free world, going around and kidnapping citizens of other countries, taking them to an off-shore military base so that they can torture them. No due process or evidence required. It's a huge own goal in the Islam vs America propaganda Cup Final, and it's not the first, nor will it be the last. The mistake that others have made is assuming that you think it's the only factor. On the Westminster paedos thread, I suggested that we employ jury style selection for anyone on the committee, as the establishment had repeatedly shown it was incapable of investigating itself. hutch took this to mean that I was suggesting that we all form fúcking mobs and go around Paulsgrove style. Not really your fault that others lack the ability to read or apply a bit of common sense, but hey, it generates activity, so there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 More akin to Bloody Sunday I would say. Same same but different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Many years ago when I was doing my degree in modern history I remember reading an account by one of the top people in SOE/MI5 (can't remember the details), but the essence was that they didn't use torture, not only on moral grounds but that it was such a useless tool. Information given through stupidity, pride, arrogance was always more valuable than somebody babbling whatever they thought you wanted to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 They do what they do because of their extreme religious beliefs, not sure they seek any other vindication. I don't even know anymore, it was at first but I'm not sure all fighters base it on religion, but more on a 'these people are doing us wrong' basis. Of course they believe their acts are backed by their religion, but not sure they do everything in the name of Allah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 They do what they do because of their extreme religious beliefs, not sure they seek any other vindication. And what helped to radicalise them, to give them these extreme views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 And what helped to radicalise them, to give them these extreme views? These people don't use Western logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 These people don't use Western logic. What is that then, oh wise one? Lecture us on Western logic. Is it like Gandhi's Western civilisation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 These people don't use Western logic. I'm fascinated to hear you doctorate piece on the radicalisation of Islam and how it didn't use Western norms to influence Western born Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 And what helped to radicalise them, to give them these extreme views? Certainly not Guantanamo Bay, 9/11 happened before that remember. I would say the Israel/Palestine conflict is probably the main reason for the anti US/Western attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Many years ago when I was doing my degree in modern history I remember reading an account by one of the top people in SOE/MI5 (can't remember the details), but the essence was that they didn't use torture, not only on moral grounds but that it was such a useless tool. Information given through stupidity, pride, arrogance was always more valuable than somebody babbling whatever they thought you wanted to hear. I've read a bit about the SOE and I'm pretty sure the Germans used torture to gain information. I'm sure I remember reading on more than one occasion that if an agent or part of the resistance got caught it was usually just a matter of time before information was given up because of torture. people can only hold out so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 What is that then, oh wise one? Lecture us on Western logic. Is it like Gandhi's Western civilisation? Let's just say that they don't need a reason to justify their actions. The Arabic world is not systematic like the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Let's just say that they don't need a reason to justify their actions. The Arabic world is not systematic like the West. Let's just say you're light on facts, and could have substantiated your Western logic point with a bit more than these noisemaker one-liners. If you got a point, make it and justify it, otherwise you'll look like some frightened bloke peddling fear of the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Certainly not Guantanamo Bay, 9/11 happened before that remember. I would say the Israel/Palestine conflict is probably the main reason for the anti US/Western attitude. Whilst I agree with your latter point I think you are way, way off the mark with the former. GitMo has certainly been used to help radicalise young Western Muslims as 99% if published research shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Let's just say you're light on facts, and could have substantiated your Western logic point with a bit more than these noisemaker one-liners. If you got a point, make it and justify it, otherwise you'll look like some frightened bloke peddling fear of the other. Ipad. There's only so much you can type with one finger. My point is that you cannot use our reasoning to argue and debate with someone who has been brought up to see the world from a different perspective. This doesn't make their philosophy any less valid, it just operates in a different dimension. My point was meant to refer to the argument that the hostility to the West was intensified by the actions of the West. Some people don't need any justification. It has been this way for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 we should ask them nicely You are a disgusting person: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/experts-most-shocking-findings-cia-torture-report?CMP=fb_gu https://mobile.twitter.com/trevortimm/status/542357594497875968/photo/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Surprisingly liberal thread. Refreshing is some ways. Pap and others - would you advocate sleep deprivation as measure to weaken resolve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Maybe delldays was working there at one point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Surprisingly liberal thread. Refreshing is some ways. Pap and others - would you advocate sleep deprivation as measure to weaken resolve? Only prior to George and Tony' public execution for war crimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Be honest. It is something we all get angry about on our keyboards Blairs lot were the masters of all this and he was voted back in to be our leader in 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 10 December, 2014 Share Posted 10 December, 2014 Be honest. It is something we all get angry about on our keyboards Blairs lot were the masters of all this and he was voted back in to be our leader in 2005 It's great to know the "f*ck em" attitude is common in the forces, no wonder the yanks used us to rendition children and innocent men round the world for torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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