whelk Posted 19 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 19 February, 2015 Not condoning it or anything, but the reaction since has been ridiculous. Someone being pushed off a busy train, which I see happen a lot in London most mornings on packed tube/trains when people try and cram on.. Singing a song is hardly illegal either is it? Typical social media mob who love to be outraged at everything and anything.. Apparent 3 year sentences inside for those fellas?! Ridiculous. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2480463/Seven-Charlton-Athletic-fans-jailed-banned-football-52-years-Stephen-Lawrence-racist-abuse-train.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 it would be great if people did learn from this and society move forward, but you can see the problem in some of the responses on this thread. Some people, like Turkish and Griffo, don't seem to think this behaviour is either racist or a problem. When you have someone who spends as much time on forums as Turkish does, a lot of people will read his message. Its a shame that rather than pretending that he's doing some sort of public service for free speech or justice, Turkish cant just admit that this is a racist incident perpetrated by football hooligans. I wonder why he would want to defend such behaviour? Quote where I have condoned the behaviour of the ones who did this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 19 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 19 February, 2015 I did think why was someone randomly filming a train pulling into an underground station with only one person trying to get on it. Seemed a bit odd. Explained here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/18/why-filmed-chelsea-fans-paris-metro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 Explained here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/18/why-filmed-chelsea-fans-paris-metro So the threw people off because they were PSG fans then. Kind of proves it wasn't a racist incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 19 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 19 February, 2015 So the threw people off because they were PSG fans then. Kind of proves it wasn't a racist incident. Not backed up from a quote from the black guy. From the Beeb..... The father of three, a French-Mauritanian born in Paris, said he had not understood what the fans were saying but that he knew he was being targeted because of the colour of his skin. He said he had no idea he was being filmed, and had not told anyone about the incident. "What could I tell my children? That daddy was shoved around on the Metro because he is black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 So the threw people off because they were PSG fans then. Kind of proves it wasn't a racist incident. Don't see a PSG scarf on that bloke - rather someone who's on the way home from work. Or maybe he's the Cass Pennant of the Boulogne Boys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 Don't see a PSG scarf on that bloke - rather someone who's on the way home from work. Or maybe he's the Cass Pennant of the Boulogne Boys? That what he said, other people were thrown off who had PSG scarves on. So it seems like he wasn't the only one. Let's not forget this issue isn't if they were acting like a bunch of bullying c*nts, there's no doubt about that, its if this was racist or not. The FACT that an eye witness has said he wasn't the only one and a few PSG fans were thrown off too suggests the lone black guy wasn't a victim because a black man happened to try and get on the wrong carriage, it was because a non Chelsea fan tried getting on the wrong carriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 Not backed up from a quote from the black guy. From the Beeb..... The father of three, a French-Mauritanian born in Paris, said he had not understood what the fans were saying but that he knew he was being targeted because of the colour of his skin. He said he had no idea he was being filmed, and had not told anyone about the incident. "What could I tell my children? That daddy was shoved around on the Metro because he is black? If he couldn't understand them how did he know? Or did he just assume this was the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 The blokes were being complete dicks but the over-reaction to this thing has been ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 If he couldn't understand them how did he know? Or did he just assume this was the case? Maybe it was Jason Roberts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 That what he said, other people were thrown off who had PSG scarves on. So it seems like he wasn't the only one. Let's not forget this issue isn't if they were acting like a bunch of bullying c*nts, there's no doubt about that, its if this was racist or not. The FACT that an eye witness has said he wasn't the only one and a few PSG fans were thrown off too suggests the lone black guy wasn't a victim because a black man happened to try and get on the wrong carriage, it was because a non Chelsea fan tried getting on the wrong carriage. Exactly that, bullying idiots, but talk of prison sentences and the overall reaction is well over the top. I wonder if they'll be an equally sized social media hunt for the perpetrators of this? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/this-flat-blacks-only-shocking-5193505 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 (edited) Having watched it a few times, the singing seems to come from a different part of the train to the people/person that pushed the bloke off the tube. Either way, a song (free speech whether you like it or not) or a push are hardly illegal. Tube looks busy and could have been over crowded. Singing appears to be at a different time from the push as well. Picture a bloke being pushed off the train because it was overcrowded and then another part of the train making a joke of it saying it's racist.. Just another viewpoint. Potentially innocent people there with their faces plastered all over the news for having done nothing. Would be going straight to a lawyer with that. Chance of losing their jobs etc. There is no proof to prosecute anyone from that video. Edited 19 February, 2015 by Griffo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 Oh dear. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/19/chelsea-fan-in-paris-metro-video-posed-in-picture-with-nigel-farage Oh Dear, oh dear - another Marxist rag... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2959280/Former-public-schoolboy-season-ticket-holder-one-fans-train-racist-football-thugs-claims-friend-Twitter.html UKIP may or may not be a racist party, but the undeniable fact is it's a magnet for racist scumbags. If anyone wants to be a fellow traveller with racists, be my contemptible guest. This is the guy who the sun have 'named and shamed' but has not actually done anything yes? still it's not like you to react hysterically. http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/sun-chelsea-fans-caught-racism-storm-paris-metro/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 19 February, 2015 Share Posted 19 February, 2015 Having watched it a few times, the singing seems to come from a different part of the train to the people/person that pushed the bloke off the tube. Either way, a song (free speech whether you like it or not) or a push are hardly illegal. Tube looks busy and could have been over crowded. Singing appears to be at a different time from the push as well. Picture a bloke being pushed off the train because it was overcrowded and then another part of the train making a joke of it saying it's racist.. Just another viewpoint. Potentially innocent people there with their faces plastered all over the news for having done nothing. Would be going straight to a lawyer with that. Chance of losing their jobs etc. There is no proof to prosecute anyone from that video. Yes, I thought that as well. When saw the original footage, thought " hang on.....that singing isn't even coming from the right part of the train" and then when I looked even closer, a little like you and Turkish have done, I noticed that that black man wasn't even pushed off of the train. He just fell off. If you look closely, no one actually touches him but all those social media lefties have convicted the Chelsea innocents already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Yes, I thought that as well. When saw the original footage, thought " hang on.....that singing isn't even coming from the right part of the train" and then when I looked even closer, a little like you and Turkish have done, I noticed that that black man wasn't even pushed off of the train. He just fell off. If you look closely, no one actually touches him but all those social media lefties have convicted the Chelsea innocents already. Still missing the point. Who decides if it's racist or not? The ones at the front who are plastered across the front of the papers were not singing the song, as the video shows.. And only 2 of them could have pushed him as there were two pushes. So out of that group pictured, the majority of them haven't done ANYTHING yet are all over the media with people calling for them to lose their jobs and be put in prison. Absolute joke and it's no surprise the amount of people joining in with the outrage on here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Yes, I thought that as well. When saw the original footage, thought " hang on.....that singing isn't even coming from the right part of the train" and then when I looked even closer, a little like you and Turkish have done, I noticed that that black man wasn't even pushed off of the train. He just fell off. If you look closely, no one actually touches him but all those social media lefties have convicted the Chelsea innocents already. It wouldn't even be in the papers at all if the fella that was pushed off was white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1885 Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 It wouldn't even be in the papers at all if the fella that was pushed off was white. Yes. Because this would not be racist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Yes, I thought that as well. When saw the original footage, thought " hang on.....that singing isn't even coming from the right part of the train" and then when I looked even closer, a little like you and Turkish have done, I noticed that that black man wasn't even pushed off of the train. He just fell off. If you look closely, no one actually touches him but all those social media lefties have convicted the Chelsea innocents already. Again, who said he wasn't pushed? the singing didn't come from the area where he was pushed. You really do seem to have a problem excepting FACTS when it doesn't suit you don't you pal. Still Keep on inventing things people have said instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Yes. Because this would not be racist... Yes it could could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Wow, there are some whining, hand-wringing apologists on this thread. They were big boys, they knew what they were doing, now they can face the consequences, stop bleating on about how unfair it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Wow, there are some whining, hand-wringing apologists on this thread. They were big boys, they knew what they were doing, now they can face the consequences, stop bleating on about how unfair it is. Spot on. They should face the consequences of their actions. But they should face the consequences of what they actually did, not a trial by social media whipped up by what we are told to think they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 You're being a little bit paranoid. I think most people watched that film and made up their own minds, just like you and I did. You're over-thinking it and seeing a conspiracy that isn't really there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 You're being a little bit paranoid. I think most people watched that film and made up their own minds, just like you and I did. You're over-thinking it and seeing a conspiracy that isn't really there. But the point is, they have done nothing wrong some of them. Didn't push someone of a tube and didn't sing the song in question either, so how on earth is that deserving of being all over the front of every paper? No one is making up excuses for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 You're being a little bit paranoid. I think most people watched that film and made up their own minds, just like you and I did. You're over-thinking it and seeing a conspiracy that isn't really there. See the "Public Schoolboy" who has had all his background details, name, place of work etc plastered over the media and even this thread, but has no evidence of him either pushing the bloke or singing anything, he's just stood on the train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffo Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Racism problem is bigger than football and actions within football will not fix a social problem. The chelski fans were silly but this type of stuff happens all the time. I have faced it first hand more than a few times. Not complaining just think it is not footballs issue, it is a social problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Racism problem is bigger than football and actions within football will not fix a social problem. The chelski fans were silly but this type of stuff happens all the time. I have faced it first hand more than a few times. Not complaining just think it is not footballs issue, it is a social problem. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Racism problem is bigger than football and actions within football will not fix a social problem. The chelski fans were silly but this type of stuff happens all the time. I have faced it first hand more than a few times. Not complaining just think it is not footballs issue, it is a social problem. It is indeed a social problem and whilst actions in football will not solve this problem on their own, I do think they can play a significant part. Football clubs hold an elevated position in our society and the ethnic mix of most clubs should be used in a positive manner in helping to educate and over time eradicate racism. Have to take exception at the use of the word "silly" though, as think that is far too throwaway to describe them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 It's sh!t like that that actually makes people want to vote UKIP. How is the fact that he is photographed with Farage supposed to mean anything? Everyone is running scared of UKIP because they are the only party who are correct about immigration and they know it. Hmmm really. There is nothing that would make me want to vote for UKIP. Also you say that they are the only party who are correct about immigration. Really? I suppose the Nazis were the only ones who got it right about ethnic cleansing too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Hmmm really. There is nothing that would make me want to vote for UKIP. Also you say that they are the only party who are correct about immigration. Really? I suppose the Nazis were the only ones who got it right about ethnic cleansing too? how is that remotely comparable? Godwins law in action once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Racism problem is bigger than football and actions within football will not fix a social problem. The chelski fans were silly but this type of stuff happens all the time. I have faced it first hand more than a few times. Not complaining just think it is not footballs issue, it is a social problem. It is a social problem but then so is violence and as we know, there used to be a great deal of violence at football matches. The sort of thing you don't get at rugby or cricket matches. There is a certain type of dangerous and unpleasant tribalism within football crowds. You would like to think that in 2015 and with so many "foreign" players plying their trade in clubs across the world, that racism in football would be no more. Sadly many clubs still have racist supporters in their ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 how is that remotely comparable? Godwins law in action once again. So you think that UKIPs solution to immigration is the only solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 So you think that UKIPs solution to immigration is the only solution? How is ukips immigration policy comparable to nazi ethnic cleansing? What a stupid stupid comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 How is ukips immigration policy comparable to nazi ethnic cleansing? What a stupid stupid comparison. I think you are deliberately trying to be obtuse. But at least you are showing your true colours. I hope that you and Nigel will be very happy together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 How is ukips immigration policy comparable to nazi ethnic cleansing? What a stupid stupid comparison. My point is that UKIPs solution to the immigration issue is no more the only right one than the Nazis idea of how to deal with non Aryans. Not hard to grasp surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 how is that remotely comparable? Godwins law in action once again. Haha, love Godwins law. As soon as someone invokes it you realise they can only deal in black and white, and not the intricacies of argument, or in this case social behaviour/politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I think you are deliberately trying to be obtuse. But at least you are showing your true colours. I hope that you and Nigel will be very happy together. Weird that you think I am supporting ukip when really all I'm doing is pointing out your daft comparisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffo Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 It is indeed a social problem and whilst actions in football will not solve this problem on their own, I do think they can play a significant part. Football clubs hold an elevated position in our society and the ethnic mix of most clubs should be used in a positive manner in helping to educate and over time eradicate racism. Have to take exception at the use of the word "silly" though, as think that is far too throwaway to describe them. Good feedback thanks. Yes clubs do have an elevated position however they are not the law, nor is sport. We pay taxes for the right legal system to deal with it. There are racists that don't follow football. So they are exempt? Please feel free to change the word silly to what ever you want but at the end of the day know one got killed, beaten, or raped. No kids where hurt. Remember the only winner in this debate is the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Yes, I thought that as well. When saw the original footage, thought " hang on.....that singing isn't even coming from the right part of the train" and then when I looked even closer, a little like you and Turkish have done, I noticed that that black man wasn't even pushed off of the train. He just fell off. If you look closely, no one actually touches him but all those social media lefties have convicted the Chelsea innocents already. He just fell off??? I guess he sang those racists chants himself too? And good to see all of those lovely gents saying to their mates make room and help him into the carriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Good feedback thanks. Yes clubs do have an elevated position however they are not the law, nor is sport. We pay taxes for the right legal system to deal with it. There are racists that don't follow football. So they are exempt? Please feel free to change the word silly to what ever you want but at the end of the day know one got killed, beaten, or raped. No kids where hurt. Remember the only winner in this debate is the media. Under the banner of racial intolerance plenty of people have been killed, beaten and raped. That is why we make a stand against it. Because it is abhorrent and should not be tolerated. It what is know as the slippery slope. Once you say it is okay for casual incidents of racist behaviour before you know it you have parties like UKIP and their policies becoming more and more mainstream. If history teaches us something it is not to let this crap grow again and to call it wherever we see it for what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Yeah stop being a ridiculous racist Ludwig! I think the authorities should clamp down hard on this sort of post, banning orders aren't enough, Ludick needs to serve time for this sort of racial hatred posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I find it very sad that these thugs are being defended by some on here. It has nothing to do with levels of offence. It is out of order. The guy was clearly prevented from getting on the train and there was clear racist chanting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I find it very sad that these thugs are being defended by some on here. It has nothing to do with levels of offence. It is out of order. The guy was clearly prevented from getting on the train and there was clear racist chanting. Well, let's not beat around the bush. It was fúcking out of order and there should be no excuse for it in this day and age. Unfortunately, racism is something like a hereditary disease, as I found out when I had to explain to my then five year old daughter what the n-word meant. It's actually a little worse than a hereditary disease. Even if your parents don't have it, you can still acquire it via a combination of being fúcking thick and hanging around with similarly afflicted people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Well, let's not beat around the bush. It was fúcking out of order and there should be no excuse for it in this day and age. Unfortunately, racism is something like a hereditary disease, as I found out when I had to explain to my then five year old daughter what the n-word meant. It's actually a little worse than a hereditary disease. Even if your parents don't have it, you can still acquire it via a combination of being fúcking thick and hanging around with similarly afflicted people. The difference is whether this was indeed racially motivated, or whether or not these are faux racists. Essentially they don't have a problem with people of a different colour, but it's something controversial to chant and makes them feel big. For instance, when watching Chelsea do you think they boo their black players? Also, from what is written on here about numerous people of all backgrounds being pushed off the train, I don't think it is racist. Stupid, bullying behaviour yes, but racist, I'm not sure. I think this incident just shows how ****ing stupid these fans are, and how socially inept they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I used to use the underground a lot and never saw anyone pushed off a train. What makes this act racist is the chanting. They might not boo their own players but it didn't stop Terry saying something stupid did it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 The difference is whether this was indeed racially motivated, or whether or not these are faux racists. Essentially they don't have a problem with people of a different colour, but it's something controversial to chant and makes them feel big. For instance, when watching Chelsea do you think they boo their black players? Also, from what is written on here about numerous people of all backgrounds being pushed off the train, I don't think it is racist. Stupid, bullying behaviour yes, but racist, I'm not sure. I think this incident just shows how ****ing stupid these fans are, and how socially inept they are. Good post. I doubt they go around in KKK masks but the racist singing just goes to show how utterly brain dead stupid they are. The ones who did the singing and the pushing deserve everything they get, those that just happened to be stood in that carriage not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I used to use the underground a lot and never saw anyone pushed off a train. What makes this act racist is the chanting. They might not boo their own players but it didn't stop Terry saying something stupid did it? Yes, but would you call John Terry racist? One of his best mates is Ashley Cole, and I am sure he doesn't make his black teammates sit at the back of the bus, or treat them any differently. He made a racist comment. I'm not 100% sure that makes him a racist. The chanting doesn't make them racist, as the chanting isn't inherently racist. They are not saying bad things about black people in those chants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 So you think that UKIPs solution to immigration is the only solution? No but they are the only party who seem to take the problem seriously. Labour, in their own words, don't want the subject brought up. The Tories would obviously want to adopt UKIP's policies but can't because of the Europe split in their party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 The difference is whether this was indeed racially motivated, or whether or not these are faux racists. Essentially they don't have a problem with people of a different colour, but it's something controversial to chant and makes them feel big. For instance, when watching Chelsea do you think they boo their black players? Also, from what is written on here about numerous people of all backgrounds being pushed off the train, I don't think it is racist. Stupid, bullying behaviour yes, but racist, I'm not sure. I think this incident just shows how ****ing stupid these fans are, and how socially inept they are. Good post. They looked to me like a bunch of stupid ***ts just trying to be as offensive as possible. If the bloke trying to get on had been fat or ginger he may have got the same treatment just a different song. Having said that, I lived in London for 5-6 years and the place does have a bigger racism problem than down here in Southampton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Good post. They looked to me like a bunch of stupid ***ts just trying to be as offensive as possible. If the bloke trying to get on had been fat or ginger he may have got the same treatment just a different song. Having said that, I lived in London for 5-6 years and the place does have a bigger racism problem than down here in Southampton I work in London and live on the outskirts, and I haven't really seen any racism up here, but then I doubt I frequent the right places for that. The only racism I see is towards gypsies (and nothing violent, just the fact that you are told to be very careful around them), but then I'm not sure if it's racism as I am yet to meet one who won't try to steal things out of your garden... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 20 February, 2015 The difference is whether this was indeed racially motivated, or whether or not these are faux racists. Essentially they don't have a problem with people of a different colour, but it's something controversial to chant and makes them feel big. For instance, when watching Chelsea do you think they boo their black players? Also, from what is written on here about numerous people of all backgrounds being pushed off the train, I don't think it is racist. Stupid, bullying behaviour yes, but racist, I'm not sure. I think this incident just shows how ****ing stupid these fans are, and how socially inept they are. Not booing their own players does not mean people are not racist. Lots of people are hate filled and will mock anyone they think they may perceive they are above. Beered up and in numbers they become more confident so same ***ts could have been laughing at somebody disabled etc. Racism is just one of their lovely traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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