Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Not booing their own players does not mean people are not racist. Lots of people are hate filled and will mock anyone they think they may perceive they are above. Beered up and in numbers they become more confident so same ***ts could have been laughing at somebody disabled etc. Racism is just one of their lovely traits. The same as pushing various people off a train, and then singing that song also does not make them racist. They may be racist, but I don't think this behaviour is racist. It's ****ing stupid, and shouldn't happen, but not sure if racist myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 The difference is whether this was indeed racially motivated, or whether or not these are faux racists. Essentially they don't have a problem with people of a different colour, but it's something controversial to chant and makes them feel big. For instance, when watching Chelsea do you think they boo their black players? Also, from what is written on here about numerous people of all backgrounds being pushed off the train, I don't think it is racist. Stupid, bullying behaviour yes, but racist, I'm not sure. I think this incident just shows how ****ing stupid these fans are, and how socially inept they are. The distinction between whether they're really racists, or just faux racists, is irrelevant - particularly from the perspective of the person being abused. It's like saying "ah, such and such isn't normally violent, except when he's in a mob". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 (edited) I work in London and live on the outskirts, and I haven't really seen any racism up here, but then I doubt I frequent the right places for that. The only racism I see is towards gypsies (and nothing violent, just the fact that you are told to be very careful around them), but then I'm not sure if it's racism as I am yet to meet one who won't try to steal things out of your garden... You live in a village and commute to central London - not sure you're in the best position to comment. Having shared many a train-ride home with Chelsea fans, there's definitely something nasty that follows them around -would say their reputation for racism is pretty justified. Will leave it up to you to decide whether it applies to this lot in particular. All Ill say is that using race opportunistically to get a rise out isn't incompatible with actually holding those attitudes in some form or another. If anything, it makes it easier to cross breach certain taboos and view them as 'fair game'. Never mind how the victim interprets things. Edited 20 February, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 (edited) The distinction between whether they're really racists, or just faux racists, is irrelevant - particularly from the perspective of the person being abused. It's like saying "ah, such and such isn't normally violent, except when he's in a mob". But were they abusing him? They did the same thing to other people not dependant on creed or colour. It's like us being in the same situation. Numerous people have tried to get on. The last one is black. We tell him he can't get on (I wouldn't push him off), and me turning to you and saying jokingly 'God, I'm such a racist', as that is how it could be perceived in isolation. That is the kind of thing I believe has happened here, with the chant being to a certain extent, ironic. ****ing stupid thing to do though, should and will get banned if found out. Prison though? Nah, not for me. Edited 20 February, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Some of my best friends are train pushers but I wouldn't let my daughter marry a Chelsea fan. It's just not natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 You live in a village and commute to central London - not sure you're in the best position to comment. Having shared many a train-ride home with Chelsea fans, there's definitely something nasty that follows them around -would say their reputation for racism is pretty justified. Will leave it up to you to decide whether it applies to this lot in particular. All Ill say is that using race opportunistically to get a rise out isn't incompatible with actually holding those attitudes in some form or another. If anything, it makes it easier to cross breach certain taboos and view them as 'fair game'. Never mind how the victim interprets things. I did say that I doubt I frequent the right places, but I go out in London a lot and have never experienced anything. That is not to say it doesn't happen, as I would say it definitely does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Obviously not just Chelsea but they are the only team I recall booing their own players - Paul Canoville Leeds are as bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 But were they abusing him? They did the same thing to other people not dependant on creed or colour. It's like us being in the same situation. Numerous people have tried to get on. The last one is black. We tell him he can't get on (I wouldn't push him off), and me turning to you and saying jokingly 'God, I'm such a racist', as that is how it could be perceived in isolation. That is the kind of thing I believe has happened here, with the chant being to a certain extent, ironic. ****ing stupid thing to do though, should and will get banned if found out. Prison though? Nah, not for me. Going back to my "he's only violent when in a mob" example, let's imagine our usually non-violent person stowing a load of white people before attacking a black person. He hits away when he's battering the caucasians without comment. When he hits the black person, he makes a racist remark. Now is this person merely violent, or is he a racist as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 (edited) But were they abusing him? They did the same thing to other people not dependant on creed or colour. It's like us being in the same situation. Numerous people have tried to get on. The last one is black. We tell him he can't get on (I wouldn't push him off), and me turning to you and saying jokingly 'God, I'm such a racist', as that is how it could be perceived in isolation. That is the kind of thing I believe has happened here, with the chant being to a certain extent, ironic. ****ing stupid thing to do though, should and will get banned if found out. Prison though? Nah, not for me. Never had you down as a health and safety warrior. Let's be clear, they weren't pushing off all and sundry. They pushing off PSG fans including talk of stabbing someone - none of which is incompatible with being racist. Think about it. Edited 20 February, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Going back to my "he's only violent when in a mob" example, let's imagine our usually non-violent person stowing a load of white people before attacking a black person. He hits away when he's battering the caucasians without comment. When he hits the black person, he makes a racist remark. Now is this person merely violent, or is he a racist as well? Not sure, frankly. The attack isn't racially motivated, but he does use racist language. I guess it's like getting into a fight with a fat bloke after lots of thin blokes, and then him saying 'take that you fat fück' whilst punching him. Would that mean he has a hatred towards fat people? Not necessarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Never had you down as a health and safety warrior. Let's be clear, they were pushing off PSG fans and there was talk of stabbing someone - none of which is incompatible with being racist. Yes, agreed, but all we have to deal with is the facts. The fact they did this does not necessarily mean they have a hatred towards black people. It also doesn't necessarily count as racist behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 (edited) Obviously not just Chelsea but they are the only team I recall booing their own players - Paul Canoville Leeds are as bad Used to follow PSG quite a bit around France in the late 90s. Cut from the same cloth as Chelsea's more extreme element, arguably worse. The stuff they got away would never be tolerated on English terraces. The reaction to George Weah's departure, among over things, would have been front page news here. Edited 20 February, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Yes, agreed, but all we have to deal with is the facts. The fact they did this does not necessarily mean they have a hatred towards black people. It also doesn't necessarily count as racist behaviour. Sorry mucker. As I said before, from the perspective of the victim, it really doesn't matter. Looks like a racist. Acts like a racist. Prevents black person from getting on train while claiming to be a racist. Yes, yes, we could crawl to some quiet corner of their minds and determine that they quite like Chinese people on Tuesdays, but it doesn't really have any bearing on anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Sorry mucker. As I said before, from the perspective of the victim, it really doesn't matter. Looks like a racist. Acts like a racist. Prevents black person from getting on train while claiming to be a racist. Yes, yes, we could crawl to some quiet corner of their minds and determine that they quite like Chinese people on Tuesdays, but it doesn't really have any bearing on anything. So racism is only admissable if the person it affects thinks it's racist? In isolation it looks racist. Looking at the fact that they also chucked off others, I don't believe it is. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Either way, I think we can agree it's monumentally stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Sorry mucker. As I said before, from the perspective of the victim, it really doesn't matter. Looks like a racist. Acts like a racist. Prevents black person from getting on train while claiming to be a racist. Yes, yes, we could crawl to some quiet corner of their minds and determine that they quite like Chinese people on Tuesdays, but it doesn't really have any bearing on anything. Exactly, whatever their actual everyday thoughts on the subject of race at that time on the metro in paris they were caught up in racist chants and the stopping of a black man (amoungst others) from boarding a train. Looking at the situation in isolation, which of course it will be, does not make healthy viewing for the culprits. Hopefully Chelsea are able to identify and ban the culprits until they grow up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I found it funny hearing Jose saying how appalled he is about what happened. And how he hoped the club come down on them. He then went on to say that John terry has earned a new contract and will sign a new one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Exactly, whatever their actual everyday thoughts on the subject of race at that time on the metro in paris they were caught up in racist chants and the stopping of a black man (amoungst others) from boarding a train. Looking at the situation in isolation, which of course it will be, does not make healthy viewing for the culprits. Hopefully Chelsea are able to identify and ban the culprits until they grow up a bit. If this ever went to court for some reason, a jury would convict based on the evidence. Of course, it won't go to court. They are bang to rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 According to the Express this incident occurred less than three miles from where Diana was killed. Coincidence??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 If this ever went to court for some reason, a jury would convict based on the evidence. Of course, it won't go to court. They are bang to rights. Exactly, Im surprised so many are looking to defend the incident TBH, no place for it in society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Exactly, Im surprised so many are looking to defend the incident TBH, no place for it in society People aren't saying that it has a place in society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 (edited) So racism is only admissable if the person it affects thinks it's racist? In isolation it looks racist. Looking at the fact that they also chucked off others, I don't believe it is. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Either way, I think we can agree it's monumentally stupid. Please explain why chucking off another group Chelsea fans are hostile to is evidence that they are not racist. Quite the opposite. I'd say it contradicts your position. If Chelsea fans were throwing people off indiscriminately, you might have a point. But they weren't and you don't. Edited 20 February, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I work in London and live on the outskirts, and I haven't really seen any racism up here, but then I doubt I frequent the right places for that. The only racism I see is towards gypsies (and nothing violent, just the fact that you are told to be very careful around them), but then I'm not sure if it's racism as I am yet to meet one who won't try to steal things out of your garden... I lived in North London, around Enfield, Wood Green and Palmers Green areas and there always seemed to be tension between the asian and black gangs and the local whites. Never really thought it was that bad whilst I was a student but after I graduated had to get a few dead-end jobs to pay the rent and saw loads of racism amongst the guys I worked with, particularly when in Enfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Exactly, Im surprised so many are looking to defend the incident TBH, no place for it in society I don't think anyone is are they? No questioning the assumption that it was racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I don't think anyone is are they? No questioning the assumption that it was racist. Unbelievable Jeff is still holding a torch for their potential non-racism. This is very confusing to me. I am playing with the following variables. a = Preventing a black man from getting on a train b = Shouting "we're racist, we're racist and that's the way we like it" at the same time c = Caught on camera It's been a long time since I've done actual algebra, but:- a + b + c = racist Innit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 People aren't saying that it has a place in society? So why defend them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Guardian interview. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/20/chelsea-paris-metro-victim-souleymane-interview-really-afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Unbelievable Jeff is still holding a torch for their potential non-racism. This is very confusing to me. I am playing with the following variables. a = Preventing a black man from getting on a train b = Shouting "we're racist, we're racist and that's the way we like it" at the same time c = Caught on camera It's been a long time since I've done actual algebra, but:- a + b + c = racist Innit? Don't forget the victim himself said he was not let on the train because of the colour of his skin. Perhaps he was also mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Don't forget the victim himself said he was not let on the train because of the colour of his skin. Perhaps he was also mistaken. He actually said he couldn't understand them but 'knew' it was because he was black. If he couldn't understand them how is this possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Victim: - They were shouting and making racist comments, which I don’t accept and I didn’t understand why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Amazing, as here he says... "They told me things in English but I didn't understand the meaning of their words, I don't speak a word of English" If he didn't understand then how did he know he was being racially abused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I guess you would have had to have been there to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 I guess you would have had to have been there to understand. Yet we've got plenty of people who weren't there getting hysterical and making judgements about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Amazing, as here he says... "They told me things in English but I didn't understand the meaning of their words, I don't speak a word of English" If he didn't understand then how did he know he was being racially abused? It seems to me that this black man is trying it on and making things up having been influenced by social media. He initially fell off the train and then when he saw the uproar on twitter he thought "I could get some compensation here". So he will end up with a nice family holiday to London whilst the football lads will have their futures ruined because of his lies, his lack of balance and the PC twitter brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 It seems to me that this black man is trying it on and making things up having been influenced by social media. He initially fell off the train and then when he saw the uproar on twitter he thought "I could get some compensation here". So he will end up with a nice family holiday to London whilst the football lads will have their futures ruined because of his lies, his lack of balance and the PC twitter brigade. Departing from Sangatte? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Amazing, as here he says... "They told me things in English but I didn't understand the meaning of their words, I don't speak a word of English" If he didn't understand then how did he know he was being racially abused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Don't forget the victim himself said he was not let on the train because of the colour of his skin. Perhaps he was also mistaken. What difference does it make whether it was done for a racist reason or not? The behaviour was offensive regardless. The overall reaction has gone over the top though, I guess football + racism will always get people heated more than other issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 What difference does it make whether it was done for a racist reason or not? The behaviour was offensive regardless. Really? Because racism is wrong. There you go. Want me to explain why racism is wrong too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Really? Because racism is wrong. There you go. Want me to explain why racism is wrong too? But is this offensive behaviour worse because it's racist? That is the question that was being asked. Nobody is saying that it wasn't wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Really? Because racism is wrong. There you go. Want me to explain why racism is wrong too? So is it less wrong if it wasn't racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Just noticed that 3 of those involved were on the main news app with the BBC. Like hardened criminals. Getting a tad OTT with this now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Do you know what pappy, when I first saw first saw the incident, which was at work with the sound off. I didn't think, 'that looks like a racist incident to me' I thought, 'why are they stopping that guy getting on the train?' I didn't even notice he was black. It was only when I was told to think it was a racist incident by the outraged majority I decided to have a look for myself ask a few questions and try and make my mind up rather than follow the crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Got to say that I agree, it was moronic behaviour, regardless of skin colour. They were obviously bully-boy tactics to mess around with stopping people getting on the train, one bright spark (!?) started a ridiculous chant (as happens to people after too much booze or substances) then it all becomes a "racist" incident. It's ridiculous. They were being prats, full stop, it doesn't matter who they were being prats to, they were being prats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Really? Because racism is wrong. There you go. Want me to explain why racism is wrong too? That's not what I asked is it. If they didn't let the bloke on the train because he was French or because of the club he supported, would the incident be viewed differently to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Got to say that I agree, it was moronic behaviour, regardless of skin colour. They were obviously bully-boy tactics to mess around with stopping people getting on the train, one bright spark (!?) started a ridiculous chant (as happens to people after too much booze or substances) then it all becomes a "racist" incident. It's ridiculous. They were being prats, full stop, it doesn't matter who they were being prats to, they were being prats. Exactly that really. Bully boy behaviour, c**ts trick really, regardless of the reason behind it. Front pages of newspapers, BBC Website etc is crazy though. I guess so much of our media is driven by what they see/follow on social media, they just pick it up and run with it as a quick and easy win, regardless of whether the story is really important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Exactly that really. Bully boy behaviour, c**ts trick really, regardless of the reason behind it. Front pages of newspapers, BBC Website etc is crazy though. I guess so much of our media is driven by what they see/follow on social media, they just pick it up and run with it as a quick and easy win, regardless of whether the story is really important. Compare the general media reaction to a handful of Chelsea fans acting like c*nts to 200 Dutch fans rampaging through Rome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Life bans is something I have read... Jesus christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Compare the general media reaction to a handful of Chelsea fans acting like c*nts to 200 Dutch fans rampaging through Rome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Compare the general media reaction to a handful of Chelsea fans acting like c*nts to 200 Dutch fans rampaging through Rome. But they're Dutch, they're all harmless and fun because they smoke, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 Unbelievable Jeff is still holding a torch for their potential non-racism. This is very confusing to me. I am playing with the following variables. a = Preventing a black man from getting on a train b = Shouting "we're racist, we're racist and that's the way we like it" at the same time c = Caught on camera It's been a long time since I've done actual algebra, but:- a + b + c = racist Innit? To be fair Pap, I offered a potential situation above where it was said ironically, which you conveniently decided to ignore - again. I've noticed it's become a bit of a habit recently with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 20 February, 2015 Share Posted 20 February, 2015 So why defend them ? I'm not defending them. I'm just saying I don't think this episode was racially motivated myself. I think the guy could have been white, pink, yellow, male, female, fat, thin, in a wheelchair, whatever, I think they would have not let them on and chanted something at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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