Sexism in football...

[sadoldgit]

Why is "tits" censored in that video? I mean, fair enough this is something that you could argue needs addressing (I think people just need to get over it - "get your tits out for the lads" was chanted at that fat Wednesday fan a few seasons back) but to go so far as to censor the word tits like it's an offensive word? Since when has it been offensive?

 

"It occurs in stadiums all over the country" I disagree. I've seen many games with Sian Massey officiating and with Eva Carneiro on the pitch and not once heard anything.

 

I also disagree that those chants are sexist by definition anyway. They're not discriminating against women or claiming that men are better than women. It really is, as the Mansfield chairman sarcastically states, banter. I think one thing we can all agree on though is that the "get your tits out" chant is so old and boring that it barely qualifies as banter anyway.

 

Whilst I agree about the word t*ts I don't agree about the chanting. It is clearly discriminatory to chant gets your tits out at a woman. Just as it is to chant at people who are overweight, coloured or whatever. How would you feel if you were the only male at a sporting event full of women and they were chanting get your d*ck out for the girls? (Or perhaps we had better not go there )

[hypochondriac]

You make it sound so nice - tipsy chanting. But we're not discussing 'nice', we're discussing 'demeaning'.

 

And I still don't understand why. Why would Eva doing something that is beautiful and that everyone likes, make people want to belittle her when she's in her professional capacity? What is the flow of thought that takes you from one place to the other? Everyone seems to like her, I think? Or do you not? Do the photos make you lose respect for her? Or is this just crude flirtation that guys think she secretly likes? I'm genuinely confused!

 

I'm struggling to understand because I wouldn't follow the same thought process after seeing David Beckham in his undies. It wouldn't compel me to shout 'get your f*cking c*ck out'. It would make me think - hot guy, family guy, talented footballer. I'd gain respect.

 

Help me understand the male brain... I'm not trying to catch you out, I just want to understand on a deeper level than just 'what do you expect?'

 

I'm sorry but . You have no hope of understanding how a bloke works with posts like that. Dearie me. No bloke is going to see some shots of a girl almost with her norks out and gain respect for her. It doesn't work like that.

[hypochondriac]

Whilst I agree about the word t*ts I don't agree about the chanting. It is clearly discriminatory to chant gets your tits out at a woman. Just as it is to chant at people who are overweight, coloured or whatever. How would you feel if you were the only male at a sporting event full of women and they were chanting get your d*ck out for the girls? (Or perhaps we had better not go there )

 

Sounds like a dream sporting occasion. Would this be something like the netball world championships?

[Coxford_lou]

No but women wanting to go in a traditional male environment and then getting upset by the behaviour is the point. If you were to join a rugby club and then get offended by the sexist songs sung by the rugger boys on the coach would you say you have right not to be offended so they must stop?

 

Whelk, you're confusing two things. Swear words are down to personal taste. There will be plenty of men also offended by them. It's not a male vs female issue. I'm from Coxford, where I can happily confirm the women swear as much as the men.

 

But if I were on a rugby coach and they sang offensive songs about women (whether or not they used swear words), yes I'd be offended and I'd call them on it.

 

The 'traditional male environment' point is utter nonsense by the way. Not long ago, many environments were traditional male environments (the workplace, clubs, bars, etc etc). Luckily we've moved on from that.

[Patrick Bateman]

Help me understand the male brain... I'm not trying to catch you out, I just want to understand on a deeper level than just 'what do you expect?'

 

But that's the trouble, you obviously don't have the right type of brain. As I said above, she posed for a "target audience", i.e. Nuts/Zoo readers (or whatever magazines are out now). Said audience is probably slightly fat too. Stuff the slightly fat boy into a hideous replica shirt and then have the same (attractive and out of their league) woman run into the arena of play, it really isn't rocket science to understand what happens next and there will always be those that join in with any chanting, just because it's noise and/or they're p*ssed.

 

For the record, I neither read lads mags nor wear a horrendous replica shirt nor would I bother singing "get your tits out", as I'm not 14 years old, but I'm just coming at it from a different angle. Playing devil's advocate if you wish.

[sadoldgit]

Sounds like a dream sporting occasion. Would this be something like the netball world championships?

 

Yeah, and I still haven't gotten over it!

[Coxford_lou]

I'm sorry but . You have no hope of understanding how a bloke works with posts like that. Dearie me. No bloke is going to see some shots of a girl almost with her norks out and gain respect for her. It doesn't work like that.

 

But why Hypo? It's all very well keep saying this, but why? Explain what thought process you go through... She's a highly respected professional doctor working in a largely male environment. This deserves massive respect. Why do you lose respect when she publishes some beautiful photos?

[sadoldgit]

I respect actresses like Helen Mirren yet she often got naked on screen and stage. I think it depends what the situation is.

[sadoldgit]

If a women goes onto the field of play in a cricket or rugby match do the crowd chant get em out? (Apart from Erica Roe of course who had them out from the get go).

[Coxford_lou]

But that's the trouble, you obviously don't have the right type of brain. As I said above, she posed for a "target audience", i.e. Nuts/Zoo readers (or whatever magazines are out now). Said audience is probably slightly fat too. Stuff the slightly fat boy into a hideous replica shirt and then have the same (attractive and out of their league) woman run into the arena of play, it really isn't rocket science to understand what happens next and there will always be those that join in with any chanting, just because it's noise and/or they're p*ssed.

 

For the record, I neither read lads mags nor wear a horrendous replica shirt nor would I bother singing "get your tits out", as I'm not 14 years old, but I'm just coming at it from a different angle. Playing devil's advocate if you wish.

 

And I appreciate that. I'm not taking anyone's defence of the behaviour as an indication that they would do it themselves. But I do think it's interesting that people feel the need to defend it in the first place.

 

So are you saying it's because she's beautiful and unattainable so makes them feel inadequate - hence the need to belittle her when she's doing her job?

[Coxford_lou]

I respect actresses like Helen Mirren yet she often got naked on screen and stage. I think it depends what the situation is.

 

Yes, but when she was younger and at the peak of her edgy film making, she was enormously disrespected. Watch the Parkinson interview. Cringeworthy.

 

Now she older and won a few awards, people have decided she's worthy of their respect. But she should have had it all along.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The quickest way to stop blokes singing " get your tits out for the lads" is to get them out.

[Bearsy]

Yes, but when she was younger and at the peak of her edgy film making, she was enormously disrespected. Watch the Parkinson interview. Cringeworthy.

 

Now she older and won a few awards, people have decided she's worthy of their respect. But she should have had it all along.

 

Or not at all! How can you respect strangers? She could be a terrible person! She could torture puppies in her Spare Time!

 

Strangers merely exist for our entertainment IMO

[Coxford_lou]

Or not at all! How can you respect strangers? She could be a terrible person! She could torture puppies in her Spare Time!

 

Strangers merely exist for our entertainment IMO

 

My first assumption is that I'll like everyone! Same when Saints buy a new player - I always assume he will be brilliant!

[Bearsy]

Your respect sounds rather too much like deference! You ought not to go round the world thinking everyone else is better than you, Coxford Lou. I mean, it may well be true, but it won't do you any good. Such doormat So sad Next time you're thinking that some random bird is better than you, tell her to get her tits out. This is code for, you're not better than me! You're here for my entertainment, slave to my desires! It will make you feel v.much better!

[hypochondriac]

But why Hypo? It's all very well keep saying this, but why? Explain what thought process you go through... She's a highly respected professional doctor working in a largely male environment. This deserves massive respect. Why do you lose respect when she publishes some beautiful photos?

 

IMO if you are sexualising yourself in a glamour mag then you shouldn't be that surprised when lads in a pack environment at the football after a few beers sing chants to you about getting your tits out. I'm not going to gain respect for someone who poses barely clothes in a magazine which lets be honest is almost solely for the sexual gratification of men.

 

It's people coming into an environment where they know the score (they might get a few chants about getting their baps out) and then get all offended by it. What did they expect? It's like a bloke showing up at a magic mike show with a load of hen parties and then getting offended when they start talking about cock or a blokes body.

Edited 6 March, 2015 by hypochondriac

[Coxford_lou]

IMO if you are sexualising yourself in a glamour mag then you shouldn't be that surprised when lads in a pack environment at the football after a few beers sing chants to you about getting your tits out. I'm not going to gain respect for someone who poses barely clothes in a magazine which lets be honest is almost solely for the sexual gratification of men.

 

It's people coming into an environment where they know the score (they might get a few chants about getting their baps out) and then get all offended by it. What did they expect?

 

But but... SEX IS GOOD! I still don't understand why something that everyone likes, needs to be turned into something negative. We all like it don't we?

[Coxford_lou]

Your respect sounds rather too much like deference! You ought not to go round the world thinking everyone else is better than you, Coxford Lou. I mean, it may well be true, but it won't do you any good. Such doormat So sad Next time you're thinking that some random bird is better than you, tell her to get her tits out. This is code for, you're not better than me! You're here for my entertainment, slave to my desires! It will make you feel v.much better!

 

LOL. That took a fair bit of shoehorning to get to that point, but good effort.

[hypochondriac]

But but... SEX IS GOOD! I still don't understand why something that everyone likes, needs to be turned into something negative. We all like it don't we?

 

I like sex but I wouldn't want my relatives or my daughter if I ever have one to pose in a glamour mag. I don't gain respect for porn stars for example. Pondlife like Jordan don't gain my respect because she has made a living out of getting her surgically enhanced baps out at every opportunity. I work almost solely with women on a daily basis and I respect those who do their job well and who contribute to life and society. My respect for them isn't going to increase if I found out one of them was in a glamour magazine.

Edited 6 March, 2015 by hypochondriac

[Coxford_lou]

I like sex but I wouldn't want my relatives or my daughter if I ever have one to pose in a glamour mag. I don't gain respect for porn stars for example. Pondlife like Jordan don't gain my respect because she has made a living out of getting her surgically enhanced baps out at every opportunity. I work almost solely with women on a daily basis and I respect those who do their job well and who contribute to life and society. My respect for them isn't going to increase if I found out one of them was in a glamour magazine.

 

Well, respect should be earned for sure. But I think Eva has done plenty to earn our respect. We're not discussing her respect being increased for posing in a magazine. We're discussing her being belittled while doing her job.

 

This conversation feels like it's going round in circles and I'm not really sure I'm getting any more understanding of the psychology of it.

[sadoldgit]

We still have a problem with sex in Britain. As has been said on other threads, we seem to be stuck in the Carry On state of mind. Some olduns on here may remember a magazine called Parade? Full of topless woman (you couldn't show a vagina then) but with their nipples blacked out! We all have genitals yet someone we still, in 2015, seem to think there is something "dirty" about them. I don't think they should be shoved in your face at every opportunity but until we as a culture reach some kind of sexual maturity this will always be a problem.

[Patrick Bateman]

And I appreciate that. I'm not taking anyone's defence of the behaviour as an indication that they would do it themselves. But I do think it's interesting that people feel the need to defend it in the first place.

 

So are you saying it's because she's beautiful and unattainable so makes them feel inadequate - hence the need to belittle her when she's doing her job?

 

No, not at all, just that it is a certain mindset, that's all.

 

I'm not saying any more, you're like a Psychiatrist ...

[hypochondriac]

Well, respect should be earned for sure. But I think Eva has done plenty to earn our respect. We're not discussing her respect being increased for posing in a magazine. We're discussing her being belittled while doing her job.

 

This conversation feels like it's going round in circles and I'm not really sure I'm getting any more understanding of the psychology of it.

 

I think perhaps you just can' understand it because you don't think in the same way. My suspicion is that 99% of the men reading this would think the same way as me even if they don't admit it. Happy to put my hands up if proven wrong though.

 

Personally I think women who work in football and pose in glamour mags (and even ones that don't.) will just have to accept that on some occasions they might get a few chants aimed in their direction. Unless we are talking people being banned from stadiums for singing "get your tits out for the lads" which IMO would be a ridiculous overreaction. If someone- be they male or female- is too delicate to handle a few chants in their direction ("slapper in the pink" "you fat b*stard" etc) then they shouldn't be working or attending football. That isn't to say that there isn't a line but IMO the vast majority know where that line is.

[hypochondriac]

We still have a problem with sex in Britain. As has been said on other threads, we seem to be stuck in the Carry On state of mind. Some olduns on here may remember a magazine called Parade? Full of topless woman (you couldn't show a vagina then) but with their nipples blacked out! We all have genitals yet someone we still, in 2015, seem to think there is something "dirty" about them. I don't think they should be shoved in your face at every opportunity but until we as a culture reach some kind of sexual maturity this will always be a problem.

 

I presume you will be supporting this stance by rocking up to Sainsburys this afternoon with your todger out?

[Coxford_lou]

No, not at all, just that it is a certain mindset, that's all.

 

I'm not saying any more, you're like a Psychiatrist ...

 

I just like understanding things, rather than taking an 'it's always been like this so its ok' perspective. If you don't get under the skin of an issue (on both sides) you're not going to find a solution. And putting your head in the sand and denying there's a problem in the first place, isn't going to get us anywhere either.

[Bearsy]

I like sex but I wouldn't want my relatives or my daughter if I ever have one to pose in a glamour mag. I don't gain respect for porn stars for example. Pondlife like Jordan don't gain my respect because she has made a living out of getting her surgically enhanced baps out at every opportunity. I work almost solely with women on a daily basis and I respect those who do their job well and who contribute to life and society. My respect for them isn't going to increase if I found out one of them was in a glamour magazine.

 

When girl from my school went on to do a bit of glamour work, I went out of my way to support her career by buying the publications she appeared in, and showed her respect several times. She was literally covered in my respect! I can't understand why ur so against it.

[Coxford_lou]

We still have a problem with sex in Britain.

 

Well, yeah, there's that too.

[hypochondriac]

I just like understanding things, rather than taking an 'it's always been like this so its ok' perspective. If you don't get under the skin of an issue (on both sides) you're not going to find a solution. And putting your head in the sand and denying there's a problem in the first place, isn't going to get us anywhere either.

 

When a lot of men get together in a tribal environment and have a few beers with their mates, they tend to regress and do stupid things. Sometimes at the football this will include behaviour such as being boisterous, immature chanting at a number of different groups like the referee, fat fans in the stands, idiot fans in the stands, "hardman" routines, winding up the opposition etc etc. This has always been part of football and for many people it's the main reason they attend. I don't think you will ever be able to get rid of that element within football and for a lot of people it would make the atmosphere suffer even further.

[hypochondriac]

When girl from my school went on to do a bit of glamour work, I went out of my way to support her career by buying the publications she appeared in, and showed her respect several times. She was literally covered in my respect! I can't understand why ur so against it.

 

Well yes in that way I respect the likes of Jordan very much.

[Coxford_lou]

I think perhaps you just can' understand it because you don't think in the same way. My suspicion is that 99% of the men reading this would think the same way as me even if they don't admit it. Happy to put my hands up if proven wrong though.

 

Personally I think women who work in football and pose in glamour mags (and even ones that don't.) will just have to accept that on some occasions they might get a few chants aimed in their direction. Unless we are talking people being banned from stadiums for singing "get your tits out for the lads" which IMO would be a ridiculous overreaction. If someone- be they male or female- is too delicate to handle a few chants in their direction ("slapper in the pink" "you fat b*stard" etc) then they shouldn't be working or attending football. That isn't to say that there isn't a line but IMO the vast majority know where that line is.

 

Well the difference is, I can't understand it, but I want to.

 

You can't understand the opposite perspective and you (appear) to have no interest in doing so.

[hypochondriac]

Well the difference is, I can't understand it, but I want to.

 

You can't understand the opposite perspective and you (appear) to have no interest in doing so.

 

Help me to understand the opposite perspective then Lou. We agree that respect has to be earned and that glamour mag photos may make some men lose some respect for those women so what are you disagreeing with here?

[Coxford_lou]

When a lot of men get together in a tribal environment and have a few beers with their mates, they tend to regress and do stupid things. Sometimes at the football this will include behaviour such as being boisterous, immature chanting at a number of different groups like the referee, fat fans in the stands, idiot fans in the stands, "hardman" routines, winding up the opposition etc etc. This has always been part of football and for many people it's the main reason they attend. I don't think you will ever be able to get rid of that element within football and for a lot of people it would make the atmosphere suffer even further.

 

But like Guardian article says, we can recognise it's wrong, and provide better mechanisms for reporting it. It uses the change in attitude towards racism as evidence it's possible.

 

It strikes me, based on comments on here and elsewhere, the biggest hurdle for them to overcome is getting to a place where people recognise it's wrong in the first place (even amongst those who don't participate). That's not going to change over night, but everything has got to start somewhere.

[Halo Stickman]

I'm not saying any more, you're like a Psychiatrist ...

 

Mrs Stickman paid for me to see a cheap local shrink following a breakdown abroad. I poured out all of my troubles in one continuous ten-minute long rant, until finally the chap said something that stopped me dead in my tracks:

 

 

Senor. Yo no hablo ingles.

[hypochondriac]

But like Guardian article says, we can recognise it's wrong, and provide better mechanisms for reporting it. It uses the change in attitude towards racism as evidence it's possible.

 

It strikes me, based on comments on here and elsewhere, the biggest hurdle for them to overcome is getting to a place where people recognise it's wrong in the first place (even amongst those who don't participate). That's not going to change over night, but everything has got to start somewhere.

 

I don't think chanting get your t*ts out for the lads within a football environment is wrong. I also don't equate it in any way with racism. It's pretty unoriginal so I probably wouldn't chant it myself.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

My first assumption is that I'll like everyone! Same when Saints buy a new player - I always assume he will be brilliant!

 

Obviously never seen Shane Long play before then...

[Coxford_lou]

I don't think chanting get your t*ts out for the lads within a football environment is wrong. I also don't equate it in any way with racism. It's pretty unoriginal so I probably wouldn't chant it myself.

 

That's because you're not on the receiving end of it. And you're also struggling to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I think perhaps you just can' understand it because you don't think in the same way. My suspicion is that 99% of the men reading this would think the same way as me even if they don't admit it. Happy to put my hands up if proven wrong though.

 

Personally I think women who work in football and pose in glamour mags (and even ones that don't.) will just have to accept that on some occasions they might get a few chants aimed in their direction. Unless we are talking people being banned from stadiums for singing "get your tits out for the lads" which IMO would be a ridiculous overreaction. If someone- be they male or female- is too delicate to handle a few chants in their direction ("slapper in the pink" "you fat b*stard" etc) then they shouldn't be working or attending football. That isn't to say that there isn't a line but IMO the vast majority know where that line is.

 

I'll put my hands up and agree with Hypo here.

[Special K]

She's a big, fat bastard,

She's twice the size of me,

The hairs on her fanny are like branches on a tree.

 

She can drink, she can fight,

She can f**k all night,

She's the girl for me!

[hypochondriac]

That's because you're not on the receiving end of it. And you're also struggling to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

Nope still wouldn't care. I was not tend to get offended and certainly wouldn't if a bunch of people in a crowd who don't know me started a chant at the football about me.

[Turkish]

That's because you're not on the receiving end of it. And you're also struggling to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

I've been the subject of sexist abuse many times thank you. Had my arse and c+Ck groped, been the victim of a group of girls asking me to show them it, not the mention the endless sexual harassment in the work place where I'm often propositioned or spoken to suggestively by female colleagues. I dont have a problem with it at all.

[Bearsy]

The Hard Life Of The Male Stripper

[Coxford_lou]

The Hard Life Of The Male Stripper

 

LOL!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I've been the subject of sexist abuse many times thank you. Had my arse and c+Ck groped, been the victim of a group of girls asking me to show them it, not the mention the endless sexual harassment in the work place where I'm often propositioned or spoken to suggestively by female colleagues. I dont have a problem with it at all.

 

I was told by a female Director once that if I ****ed up she would "plss in my face". If she was male she'd be fired, but because she's female it's fair game.

[Coxford_lou]

I was told by a female Director once that if I ****ed up she would "plss in my face". If she was male she'd be fired, but because she's female it's fair game.

 

No it's not fair game. That's outrageous. And even if you're fine with it, you're doing others a disservice by not reporting it.

[Bearsy]

I defy anyone whose met Jeff, not to piss in his face.

 

Who Finds This Funny & Who Finds This Non-Funny?

 

Edited 6 March, 2015 by Bearsy

[sadoldgit]

I presume you will be supporting this stance by rocking up to Sainsburys this afternoon with your todger out?

 

You know how cold it is down some of those supermarket isles? I doubt if anyone would notice if I did!

 

Went and had breakfast at a transport café this morning and asked the lady behind the counter if she had an Earl Grey. No she replied but Ive got a Red Bush. Although there was some muted s******ing from the queue I am pleased to say that no one bit and that I managed to keep a straight face. Perhaps times are changing after all?

 

Ooer. typed sn iggering and it got censored?

Edited 6 March, 2015 by sadoldgit

[sadoldgit]

I was told by a female Director once that if I ****ed up she would "plss in my face". If she was male she'd be fired, but because she's female it's fair game.

 

To be fair Jeff, it is easier to **** in someone face if you are male. Lots of technical problems for females to **** in someones face unless they are lying down.

[Jonnyboy]

When girl from my school went on to do a bit of glamour work, I went out of my way to support her career by buying the publications she appeared in, and showed her respect several times. She was literally covered in my respect! I can't understand why ur so against it.

 

Rule 1!

 

The girl, not you.

[whelk]

I presume you will be supporting this stance by rocking up to Sainsburys this afternoon with your todger out?

 

Sounds like one of these naturist nuts who say how natural it all is and why do people want to be constrained by clothes.

And lol that it is something we evolve to - can't wait til we are all in loin cloths

[whelk]

I was told by a female Director once that if I ****ed up she would "plss in my face". If she was male she'd be fired, but because she's female it's fair game.

 

Did you fck up? I like bosses like that.