70's Mike Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Is it the concept people disagree with or the people running it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Is it the concept people disagree with or the people running it? Does it still exist? If so what stance did it take at the recent AGM? I assume Wilde withdrew his proxy to the Trust at some point. Had high hopes for the Trust when it was set up but it seems to have become a meaningless, or at least very low profile organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Chuckle Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 my personal opinion is its the people running it BUT whom ever was in charge people won't like them. I seem to remember Crab Lungs tried to put himself up for election to be on the comittee but wasn't allowed too???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I think their are two different viewpoints towards the Saints Trust... 1) Regular users on here probably have a problem with the same old faces trying to get their feet under the SFC table. 2) Your average fan on the street probably thinks they are about as useful as a one legged man at an ar5e kicking contest. Personally, I subscribe to both sets of views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 31 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Does it still exist? If so what stance did it take at the recent AGM? I assume Wilde withdrew his proxy to the Trust at some point. Had high hopes for the Trust when it was set up but it seems to have become a meaningless, or at least very low profile organisation. That is what I understand because in theory the concept is a good one, so why does it not work. Is it because we are all so independent these days that even an old fashioned Supporters Club would not work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 31 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I think their are two different viewpoints towards the Saints Trust... 1) Regular users on here probably have a problem with the same old faces trying to get their feet under the SFC table. 2) Your average fan on the street probably thinks they are about as useful as a one legged man at an ar5e kicking contest. Personally, I subscribe to both sets of views. So is it the concept or the people ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Is it the concept people disagree with or the people running it? The concept is fine but these things tend to be hijacked by certain individuals with certain agendas because of the apathy and can't be a*rsed attidute of the general fanbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 So is it the concept or the people ? The concept is quite a good one really, just dont think its been put in the hands of the right people. Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against the people involved, im sure they all have good intentions. But i feel that there is a stigma attached due to the names involved. Also, their silence (the trust, NOT the individuals) over the last few years has been embarrassing. IMHO, I think Ive done more to effect change at the club than they have..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 The concept is quite a good one really, just dont think its been put in the hands of the right people. Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against the people involved, im sure they all have good intentions. But i feel that there is a stigma attached due to the names involved. Also, their silence (the trust, NOT the individuals) over the last few years has been embarrassing. IMHO, I think Ive done more to effect change at the club than they have..... I sometimes wonder if it is ever possible to have a united independant organisation of football fans. Certainly the fan on the Board idea will never work. I think independance is the key to success - once you start getting too cosy with the powers to be then you become impotent which as far as I can see is what happened with the Trust. A great shame because right now, more than ever, we need a coherent, organised fan voice able and prepared to speak and question as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 31 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I sometimes wonder if it is ever possible to have a united independant organisation of football fans. Certainly the fan on the Board idea will never work. I think independance is the key to success - once you start getting too cosy with the powers to be then you become impotent which as far as I can see is what happened with the Trust. A great shame because right now, more than ever, we need a coherent, organised fan voice able and prepared to speak and question as one. Exactly where i am coming from Dunc. I know SISA were not everyone's cup of tea back in the Branfoot era but they were a sort of fan voice then. The current lack of voice is , imo, down to apathy which is across the fan base, and the city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Is it the concept people disagree with or the people running it? I would say I represent the 'average' fan in the street. I go to games when I can (usually midweek as I run my own football team on Saturday PM), but still consider myself to be an ardent Saints fan and have been one since a very young age. The point I am making here is that I believe there are many fans out there like me, who consider themselves ardent fans without necessarily going to all games, but I (possibly we) have absolutely no clue who the Trust are, what they do, what they are trying to achieve, whether the people running it are qualified to run such an organisation and market it properly to gain maximum support and so on. As such, I cannot possibly buy into it without a clear view as to what it is they are trying to represent and achieve. At games, I have never seen anyone marketing the trust as an organisation, let alone see them trying to make inroads into the local community via media or otherwise. To build any successful organisation, you have to have people that can make their target audience sit up and listen and want to take action. For example, is there anyone on the Saints Trust board with business / marketing expertise to run it and get across their message to the mass of average fans out there? Would engaging a football figurehead in the trust gain more support as an ambassador? As a concept, I think it is arguably sound, but if their goal is to create an organisation big enough to represent the fans as a vote in the boardroom or as a driver for change then it seems to me from the outside looking in that they only currently appeal to a very small number of fans and could never develop enough financial clout to gain a big enough share to influence change at SFC. Unless that was to change, I doubt they will ever have a real voice in the same way that the average fan doesn't have a real voice as such. In addition, the leader of the trust surely should be someone respected in football, and possibly business circles, someone that appeals to the fans, but also has the football and business knowledge (and not just the odd bit of inside information) to engage with those in the boardroom at the highest level. Please do not take this as a post knocking those that currently run the trust as I simply do not know them well enough to form an opinion one way or the other on them as a committee or as individuals, but I do know that to gain more support from the masses like me, if that is their objective, then they need to dramatically raise their profile somehow and have some appeal to a wider audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I sometimes wonder if it is ever possible to have a united independant organisation of football fans. Certainly the fan on the Board idea will never work. I think independance is the key to success - once you start getting too cosy with the powers to be then you become impotent which as far as I can see is what happened with the Trust. A great shame because right now, more than ever, we need a coherent, organised fan voice able and prepared to speak and question as one. This is exactly what i was going to write. I warned the the powers that be within the Trust about accepting Wildes proxy saying it was tantamount to throwing away their independence. History has shown i was right about this. As for the FOTB it would not have worked as it went against the whole idea of democratic representation. Let's say Steve Grant was the FOTB, he would be voting as he saw fit, not as the membership saw fit, because confidentiality clauses would mean members could not be consulted first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Chuckle Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 all i know is its run by the normal fans who are normally involved in these things Illingsworth, Formby, Godwin, Illingsworth I may be wrong????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 At times, over the last few years, I have thought about trying to create an independant "fans group" totally seperate from all other before (SISA, Saints Trust) and with none of the usual names involved. Maybe now is the time to excellerate the idea and turn it into reality. I would probably run it all under my username on here, not because I want to hide behind my keyboard, but more to prove that im not doing it for minor celebrity or to get "in" with the club. Membership (if you could call it that) would be free as well. Other ideas etc are still in their infancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Democracy is a good thing too - but only in the hands of the right people... ... The trust will only work as an independent fan group if it detaches itself from all the other views. Then it won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I think what we need now is not a one size fits all fans group but a Lowe Out focus group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I think what we need now is not a one size fits all fans group but a Lowe Out focus group. Exactly....we need a pressure group, NOT a club to join. Dont take this the wrong way. What we need is an al-qaeda type situation, not an organisation as such, but an idealogy or viewpoint for people to subscribe to. I appreciate I may now have lost support due to mentioning al-qaeda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowballs2 Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I sometimes wonder if it is ever possible to have a united independant organisation of football fans. Certainly the fan on the Board idea will never work. I think independance is the key to success - once you start getting too cosy with the powers to be then you become impotent which as far as I can see is what happened with the Trust. A great shame because right now, more than ever, we need a coherent, organised fan voice able and prepared to speak and question as one. You got it 90% right, however the problem remains that we can NEVER speak with one voice because there are those some who post on here, that will forgive the Board of directors anything. Until we are truly united through a disaster like Administration we will be paper tigers.. There are times when of late I fear that the apathy of some on here will hasten the demise of our club. Anywhere else by now there would have been united demonstrations, but we are so apathetic we accept anything of late. Wake up guys before your team has gone for good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I think it has been discredited by association and has withered on the vine. What the small and maybe not so small shareholders need, is a co-operative society, to bring their shares into a large enough block, to enable some influence, to be brought to bear, on the Lowe/Wilde etc axis. After all more than half the shares issued, are not owned by the current management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Concept is good and it has worked for other clubs. I think the people running it have failed to engage fans and be proactive. I joined but since receiving my certificate have not received a single email or letter from them despite me emailing their website to ask what was going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topcat Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Judge people by their actions. Where has the Trust been in the worst year for Saints (so far)? Answer Missing from the Action. They went to sleep and failed to provide any Leadership. They are not to blame for the dire state of the Club. But most of the Trust's Board are to blame for failing to represent their Members and failing to communicate. The Trust has shown no sign of any coherent alternative proposals for a better run Saints. When Lowe returned they did not set the SLH Board any clear targets against which they should be measured. They failed to warn about 5,000 fewer attendees due to Lowe. Nick Illingsworth should resign for failing to lead at a time when the Trust desperately needed an able Leader. He has become almost an apologist for Lowe saying that others need to share the blame. No they do not, all others have done is to back the idiot. Misguided they maybe, but Lowe took the decision to remove Pearson, shed experience, select a dutch experiment and squander wages on some very duff players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommi Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 You got it 90% right, however the problem remains that we can NEVER speak with one voice because there are those some who post on here, that will forgive the Board of directors anything. Until we are truly united through a disaster like Administration we will be paper tigers.. There are times when of late I fear that the apathy of some on here will hasten the demise of our club. Anywhere else by now there would have been united demonstrations, but we are so apathetic we accept anything of late. Wake up guys before your team has gone for good Where a group is concerned you'll never speak with one voice in any situation or any walk of life (not just football) you'll only be able to speak from the 'majority' and that is one area in my opinion where the trust failed. They should have been out there, canvassing all saints supporters, holding events on match day, talking in pubs and clubs around the stadium, factually getting the majority view.... and then presenting it to the FANS, club, shareholders, directors, media etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Judge people by their actions. Where has the Trust been in the worst year for Saints (so far)? Answer Missing from the Action. They went to sleep and failed to provide any Leadership. They are not to blame for the dire state of the Club. But most of the Trust's Board are to blame for failing to represent their Members and failing to communicate. The Trust has shown no sign of any coherent alternative proposals for a better run Saints. When Lowe returned they did not set the SLH Board any clear targets against which they should be measured. They failed to warn about 5,000 fewer attendees due to Lowe. Nick Illingsworth should resign for failing to lead at a time when the Trust desperately needed an able Leader. He has become almost an apologist for Lowe saying that others need to share the blame. No they do not, all others have done is to back the idiot. Misguided they maybe, but Lowe took the decision to remove Pearson, shed experience, select a dutch experiment and squander wages on some very duff players. I am not a million miles from your views. As the poster before you highlighted the Trust was launched amid a blaze of publicity and promises and then....virtually nothing delivered not helped by appalling communications. To be fair running something like a Trust efficiently is time consuming and needs dedication but it seems these were characteristics lacking at the time. Nick is a nice enough bloke, with savvy and he means well but I do fear out of the 3 amigos he feels more at home in Lowe's camp and has unwittingly allowed himself to be "cultivated" to a degree. I suppose he could level similar bias accusations at me, as out of the Holy Trinity, I would prefer Crouch (certainly on a temporary basis) but at the end of the day a completely fresh face will be the only way the fans can once again unite. A well-run active and independant supporters club with 5,000 members would be a loud voice and one any self-respecting Board would like to have a decent relationship with. In the old days clubs actually relied on these supporters clubs for finance. Ted Bates's first signing, Jimmy Shields from Sunderland was completely financed by the Supporters Club so it was little wonder the directors in those days showed a little more respect to the fans and their organisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INFLUENCED.COM Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 The Trust has shown no sign of any coherent alternative proposals for a better run Saints. Who has ? The alliance with Wilde was mentioned earlier, surely if an alternative were to be presented such an alliance would have to be struck with another shareholder, say Crouch, another man who divides opinion and in the event of failure would bring out the 'I told you so's' It would be a thankless task imo, you need someone with some of the qualities that exist in all of the people who are mentioned, Chorley, Illingsworth etc... but when these people do not agree with direction how can they represent thousands of others who also have different ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I would say I represent the 'average' fan in the street. I go to games when I can (usually midweek as I run my own football team on Saturday PM), but still consider myself to be an ardent Saints fan and have been one since a very young age. The point I am making here is that I believe there are many fans out there like me, who consider themselves ardent fans without necessarily going to all games, but I (possibly we) have absolutely no clue who the Trust are, what they do, what they are trying to achieve, whether the people running it are qualified to run such an organisation and market it properly to gain maximum support and so on. As such, I cannot possibly buy into it without a clear view as to what it is they are trying to represent and achieve. At games, I have never seen anyone marketing the trust as an organisation, let alone see them trying to make inroads into the local community via media or otherwise. To build any successful organisation, you have to have people that can make their target audience sit up and listen and want to take action. For example, is there anyone on the Saints Trust board with business / marketing expertise to run it and get across their message to the mass of average fans out there? Would engaging a football figurehead in the trust gain more support as an ambassador? As a concept, I think it is arguably sound, but if their goal is to create an organisation big enough to represent the fans as a vote in the boardroom or as a driver for change then it seems to me from the outside looking in that they only currently appeal to a very small number of fans and could never develop enough financial clout to gain a big enough share to influence change at SFC. Unless that was to change, I doubt they will ever have a real voice in the same way that the average fan doesn't have a real voice as such. In addition, the leader of the trust surely should be someone respected in football, and possibly business circles, someone that appeals to the fans, but also has the football and business knowledge (and not just the odd bit of inside information) to engage with those in the boardroom at the highest level. Please do not take this as a post knocking those that currently run the trust as I simply do not know them well enough to form an opinion one way or the other on them as a committee or as individuals, but I do know that to gain more support from the masses like me, if that is their objective, then they need to dramatically raise their profile somehow and have some appeal to a wider audience. Perhaps someone ought to answer this fan's questions. It may answer for a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 It would be a thankless task imo, you need someone with some of the qualities that exist in all of the people who are mentioned, Chorley, Illingsworth etc... but when these people do not agree with direction how can they represent thousands of others who also have different ideas. This is true but political parties, unions and other clubs and associations manage it, so why can't we? However, to have any real credibility it has to be totally democratic. Everyone with a interest in Saints (financial or not), should be eligible to be members of the Trust, or Supporters Association (or whatever name you want to call them). The Chair and the Committee should have to put themselves up for election annually, allowing all members to vote on their past performance and their ongoing manifesto. Anyone sould be able to stand for any of the Committee's positions by puting forward their own manifesto. As a previous poster has said, an association of 5,000 or more members, should and would be listened to but only if it's truely representative of the fanbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 I used to support it but now it has shown it's self up for what a completely toothless organisation it is. My understanding of it is - because it is set up as an official trust then it gets certain privileges, like after every board meeting it gets a report on what happened by a board member. But because of it's official status it cannot, by law, criticise or campaign against individuals - only comment on policies etc. It is a complete waste of time, and not representative of anyone. If anything in times like this it is actually doing harm to the fans cause by not acurately reflecting fans opinion and being bound by rules which stop any direct action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Is it the concept people disagree with or the people running it? The people running it, and the agenda (one of them gets to hob-nob with the board and be center of attention to other fans) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 31 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 31 December, 2008 The people running it, and the agenda (one of them gets to hob-nob with the board and be center of attention to other fans) you could run it from home and that would remove that bit of the agenda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrollman no2 Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 All i have ever seen of the Trust was a few people turned up once where i was having a pint,put some leaflets about,asked for money then disappeared into the night. No wonder no one wants to join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 31 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 31 December, 2008 All i have ever seen of the Trust was a few people turned up once where i was having a pint,put some leaflets about,asked for money then disappeared into the night. No wonder no one wants to join. if it was better organized would you join and pay a sub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topcat Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 re Fitzhugh fella, thanks, the Trust needs a Leader with the vision and the time. A retired person maybe best. There are thousands of those amongst the supporters. re influenced.com, the issue is that it should be the role of the Trust to grow in influence and evolve to the point that it owns the Club. We are where we are becuase of who owns the Club. The Trust should gear itself up to be ready to buy the Club (when we go into admin) or buy a large chunk of shares if we avoid that horror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrollman no2 Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 if it was better organized would you join and pay a sub Yes if it was as you say,organised and had clear aims. It would also have to be independent from any of those in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stthrobber Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 Is it the concept people disagree with or the people running it? When the Trust was first considered it was a good idea and there were some good people on the forming committee that put in a lot of miles, time and effort to get it off the ground. I know Steve Grant came to us in Cardiff to sell the idea to our fans. Sadly for the Trust, the change in leadership at the club coincided with the total collapse of any communication between the club and fans and whether by design or accident, the main agenda of the Trust, to elect a fan to the board of the football club was rejected by Jim Hone. Um knows the full story better than me, but with the Trust hamstrung by not being able to deliver it's main raison d'etre, it began to look like a rudderless ship. Nick Illingsworth is a decent guy, but I fear petty jealousy on his part has driven a wedge between himself/Saints Trust and other fans. Andy Oldknow and Hone only wanted to deal with the Trust and held a gun to the other fans groups to affiliate, a move which was not popular amongst most fans groups who felt they had little choice but to accept or be totally isolated. This meant that plans would have to be made for yet more regional fans groups to represent their own groups to the Trust, and then in turn, the club. Totally bloody ridiculous, and then when Hone was booted out that affiliation business was rescinded and groups were once again free to act for their own members. For my part I see little purpose to the Trust now. I know that Nick met with Lowe and Wilde a few weeks back, but does anyone know what the outcome was? Sadly not. Until the Trust finds a new purpose and dare I say it, someone in charge who is totally independent, I think fans will by and large, not renew their memberships. I haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 (edited) I know that Nick met with Lowe and Wilde a few weeks back, but does anyone know what the outcome was? Sadly not. This illustrates perfectly why the the Trust should be shunned. Nick is clearly more interested in his own ambitions than being a representaive of others. Nick Illingsworth is looking more and more like Keith Legg by the day Edited 31 December, 2008 by Mole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowballs2 Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 We are now in the last death throws of the trust. Originally the concept was good, the problem is that not a soul seems to have the time to run it effectively. Add to that the comments which come from Illingsworth as an ally of Lowe and it is seen to be a propaganda machine which represents Lowe and Wilde rather than the members. The best thing that Nick can do is resign and see if any other person has the time to devote to running it properly for the benefit of the fans rather than Lowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 31 December, 2008 Share Posted 31 December, 2008 (edited) I'd be interested to know how many members Nick Illingsworth actually represents. The figure of 838 is not up to date. I'd wager Nick is strutting round like the big i am with less that half that number of payed up members. In effect the Trust is just like SISA but at least Rich Chorleys views are against Lowe like most fans. Edited 31 December, 2008 by Mole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 1 January, 2009 Share Posted 1 January, 2009 I know that Nick met with Lowe and Wilde a few weeks back, but does anyone know what the outcome was? Sadly not. Interesting. He's not exactly shouted that little gem from the rooftops, has he ? Why should we trust him ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 1 January, 2009 Share Posted 1 January, 2009 as i said on another thread... 'i know a couple of the 'minor celebs' involved with the trust well,including nick, and although they are good blokes i dont think i would like them to have a say in running the club.they all love the club as much as you and i,but for me this is where the problems start,would they make the sound,realistic and sometimes unpopular decisions required or would they make decisions driven by their heart which might be popular with the masses but could be disasterous for the club.in a way i think crouch had a touch of this attitude which sometimes manifested itself in the form of some of his cringy outbursts.' i dont want to cheapen their efforts as they are friends of mine but they dont and probably wont represent what i want for the club and i just have a feeling they would jump into bed with whoever happens to be top dog and become darkened by the shadow of somebody who perhaps i dont wish to be involved in running my club. i also didnt like the silence coming from the trust in our hour of need.they dont have the numbers and they dont have any power to influence anything tbh and whos to say that they wouldnt take the devils shilling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 1 January, 2009 Share Posted 1 January, 2009 I think some of you are being a bit harsh. Didnt they organise a quiz night once ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Posted 1 January, 2009 Share Posted 1 January, 2009 [quote=aintforever;150141. My understanding of it is - because it is set up as an official trust then it gets certain privileges, like after every board meeting it gets a report on what happened by a board member. But because of it's official status it cannot, by law, criticise or campaign against individuals - only comment on policies etc.. that's complete rubbish - where do people get this stuff from!?A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 1 January, 2009 Share Posted 1 January, 2009 that's complete rubbish - where do people get this stuff from!?A Someone in the trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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