Coronavirus Discussion Thread

[egg]

Just because you’re scared half to death, doesn’t mean everyone else has to be. I walked the dog on sandbanks beach Sat & Bournemouth beach Sun. everybody I saw was acting in a perfectly reasonable way.

 

We’re breeding a nation of do gooders, Lockdown Mary Whitehouses pointing their fingers at the great unwashed, overcome by moral outrage. The British people have taken the closing of their pubs & social life pretty damn well, they’ve “saved” the NHS from toppling over, they don’t need the self righteous constantly telling them to hide under their beds.

 

 

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Scared to death, behave? We have social distancing measures for a reason. My willingness to respect them, and frustration at idiots that don't, does not make me scared to death. If you're out and about, you will have noted that many people aren't respecting social distancing. If you're cool with that, it says more about me than you.

[Turkish]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/18457868.amp/

 

25 people playing loud music classes as a rave these days does it. How times have changed

[Give it to Ron]

Professor from Southampton on BBC. Children very unlikely to be a risk to teachers.

 

‘Unlikely’ that’s comforting .

Most including my daughter have been working caring for NHS parents children .

It’s impossible to social distance the first thing one did was run up and hug my daughters leg.

Before some comment about holidays it’s changed many teachers don’t get paid and contracted on number of days.

 

 

 

 

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Edited 19 May, 2020 by Give it to Ron

[hypochondriac]

‘Unlikely’ that’s comforting

 

 

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Actually very unlikely. Cited a study in Australia:

 

"In New South Wales, nine students and nine staff at 15 schools were confirmed to have COVID-19 from the beginning of March to April 10 when the school term ended. Once confirmed, they were sent home to self-isolate for 14 days, along with all those who came into close contact with them.

Altogether, 753 students and 128 staff were close contacts of these 18 cases. That's defined as being in face-to-face contact for at least 15 minutes or spending two hours in the same room with someone who is infectious.

Researchers at NSW Health and the National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance tracked the contacts, performing nose and throat swabs and antibody tests on those who agreed (about one-third of the total). They concluded that it was "most likely, but not certain" that just one child in a primary school and one child in a high school contracted COVID-19 from the initial 18 cases.

"Our investigation found no evidence of children infecting teachers," said the researchers in their report. "One secondary case (in the child in a high school) was presumed to have been infected following close contact with two student cases. The other secondary case was presumed to have been infected by a staff member (teacher) who was a case."

[Give it to Ron]

What about infecting each other heard about Kawasaki?

Spain one of the worst impacted keeping off until September yet our Government wants to sacrifice our kids and school staff not satisfied with Care home

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[shurlock]

Actually very unlikely. Cited a study in Australia:

 

"In New South Wales, nine students and nine staff at 15 schools were confirmed to have COVID-19 from the beginning of March to April 10 when the school term ended. Once confirmed, they were sent home to self-isolate for 14 days, along with all those who came into close contact with them.

Altogether, 753 students and 128 staff were close contacts of these 18 cases. That's defined as being in face-to-face contact for at least 15 minutes or spending two hours in the same room with someone who is infectious.

Researchers at NSW Health and the National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance tracked the contacts, performing nose and throat swabs and antibody tests on those who agreed (about one-third of the total). They concluded that it was "most likely, but not certain" that just one child in a primary school and one child in a high school contracted COVID-19 from the initial 18 cases.

"Our investigation found no evidence of children infecting teachers," said the researchers in their report. "One secondary case (in the child in a high school) was presumed to have been infected following close contact with two student cases. The other secondary case was presumed to have been infected by a staff member (teacher) who was a case."

 

It might be unlikely -and my own view is that schools are not the main or riskiest site for transmission and there are powerful reasons to get some kids back into a classroom but there is research that should nonetheless give pause for thought. Cherrypicking studies, ignoring potentially conflicting findings, failing to acknowledge limitations in studies only to conclude its highly unlikely might be OK for a football forum and the pub but it’s not a sound basis for policy.

Edited 19 May, 2020 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

It might be unlikely -and my own view is that schools are not the main or riskiest site for transmission and there are powerful reasons to get some kids back into a classroom but there is research that should nonetheless give pause for thought. Cherrypicking studies, ignoring potentially conflicting findings, failing to acknowledge limitations in studies only to conclude its highly unlikely might be OK for a football forum and the pub but it’s not a sound basis for policy.

I didn't conclude its highly unlikely, it was the words of professor Saul faust, Professor of Paediatric Immunology and Infectious Diseases within Medicine at the University of Southampton.

[shurlock]

I didn't conclude its highly unlikely, it was the words of professor Saul faust, Professor of Paediatric Immunology and Infectious Diseases within Medicine at the University of Southampton.

 

Apologies. Needless to say other experts would disagree with him - see the recent German study (and you could present them too). Highly unlikely is very strong language in the context of relative risk -that is, if he’s saying is that it’s highly unlikely that children could pose an additional risk to teachers rather than say the likelihood of actual cases of transmission from children to teachers.

Edited 19 May, 2020 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

And other experts would disagree with him - see the recent German study. Highly unlikely is very strong language, especially if all he’s saying is that children could pose a risk to teachers rather than saying that they will infect teachers.

All I'm doing is providing some balance from the people on here suggesting that the government want to sacrifice children.

[Give it to Ron]

All I'm doing is providing some balance from the people on here suggesting that the government want to sacrifice children.

 

Well they have done so well so far “following the science “ what could go wrong?

Don’t need to quarantine airports yet now we do except France and Ireland because they have magic cloak.

Don’t need a mask ... except now it might be worth it indoors.

You can only meet one member of family yet ok for small groups of players to train.

You can go to work on Monday or Wednesday or on the 30th February it seems.

We have the second highest death rate so excuse me if I don’t trust the science at present

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

Well they have done so well so far “following the science “ what could go wrong?

Don’t need to quarantine airports yet now we do except France and Ireland because they have magic cloak.

Don’t need a mask ... except now it might be worth it indoors.

You can only meet one member of family yet ok for small groups of players to train.

You can go to work on Monday or Wednesday or on the 30th February it seems.

We have the second highest death rate so excuse me if I don’t trust the science at present

 

 

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See it's things like this regurgitating ill-informed newspaper headlines unthinkingly like "second highest death rate" that means some balance is required.

[Give it to Ron]

See it's things like this regurgitating ill-informed newspaper headlines unthinkingly like "second highest death rate" that means some balance is required.

 

So why Ill informed that’s from the Government slides that have now been removed but carry on with balance you have just proved the point

 

 

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[Whitey Grandad]

Well they have done so well so far “following the science “ what could go wrong?

Don’t need to quarantine airports yet now we do except France and Ireland because they have magic cloak.

Don’t need a mask ... except now it might be worth it indoors.

You can only meet one member of family yet ok for small groups of players to train.

You can go to work on Monday or Wednesday or on the 30th February it seems.

We have the second highest death rate so excuse me if I don’t trust the science at present

 

 

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France is not exempt, or won’t be. Despite what Johnson said the other Sunday nothing has been agreed with France.

 

Which is a bit of a bugger.

[Give it to Ron]

France is not exempt, or won’t be. Despite what Johnson said the other Sunday nothing has been agreed with France.

 

Which is a bit of a bugger.

 

Greece has asked to join the exemptions too apparently.

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

So why Ill informed that’s from the Government slides that have now been removed but carry on with balance you have just proved the point

 

 

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Shouting about second highest death rate completely out of context is moronic as anyone would know if they bothered to look into things at even a surface level or if they'd listened to most people qualified to talk about it because they've been saying as such for ages.

[waylander]

Well they have done so well so far “following the science “ what could go wrong?

Don’t need to quarantine airports yet now we do except France and Ireland because they have magic cloak.

Don’t need a mask ... except now it might be worth it indoors.

You can only meet one member of family yet ok for small groups of players to train.

You can go to work on Monday or Wednesday or on the 30th February it seems.

We have the second highest death rate so excuse me if I don’t trust the science at present

 

 

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You can't quarantine Ireland because they have a land border that thousands of people cross everyday to go to work/shopping or in some cases one part of their farm to another.

[Whitey Grandad]

Greece has asked to join the exemptions too apparently.

 

 

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Good news for some but from my personal view I’m unlikely to drive there with my caravan

You can't quarantine Ireland because they have a land border that thousands of people cross everyday to go to work/shopping or in some cases one part of their farm to another.

Plus there is the Common Travel Area although I believe that Ireland is imposing a 14 day quarantine on arrivals by sea or air from Britain.

[Nordic Saint]

This site has a detailed timeline of events, which is quite interesting:

 

https://appeasement.org/

[Give it to Ron]

Shouting about second highest death rate completely out of context is moronic as anyone would know if they bothered to look into things at even a surface level or if they'd listened to most people qualified to talk about it because they've been saying as such for ages.

 

Who is shouting? Why moronic that’s not a balanced view is it.

I have listened have you? how did you select who is qualified ?

The ones who meet your agenda?

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Edited 19 May, 2020 by Give it to Ron

[Give it to Ron]

So my point being that maybe we have trusted the scientists too much and not common sense.

I think at start we should have had task force across all parties and even ex PM’s to offer experience.

 

It’s would take out the politics and maybe some of things done badly handled better.

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

Who is shouting? Why moronic that’s not a balanced view is it.

I have listened have you? how did you select who is qualified ?

The ones who meet your agenda?

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OK then please find anyone you consider qualified who has used the phrase "second highest death rate" without any context. The only stipulation is it can't be a far left activist on twitter. I'll wait.

[hypochondriac]

So my point being that maybe we have trusted the scientists too much and not common sense.

I think at start we should have had task force across all parties and even ex PM’s to offer experience.

 

It’s would take out the politics and maybe some of things done badly handled better.

 

 

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Yeah scientists. Pfft. What do they know eh? We need some of that common sense instead. We've had enough of experts, let's use our instincts instead. Great plan.

[East Kent Saint]

The advice was to test , track and isolate but the Govt abandoned that but insisted they were following science with their subsequent actions . Everyone knows they have made a hash of it but thankfully death rates are slowly coming down .

Doctor on TV says there is the winter effect , cold nasal passages etc , which is now over so infection rates should slow down.

[Give it to Ron]

OK then please find anyone you consider qualified who has used the phrase "second highest death rate" without any context. The only stipulation is it can't be a far left activist on twitter. I'll wait.

 

Only you saying it was out of context I used it as my opinion that we had Government own slides saying as much.

 

Here you go quick google https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/05/uk-coronavirus-death-toll-rises-above-32000-to-highest-in-europe

 

Wait is over go have a cup of tea

 

 

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[Give it to Ron]

Yeah scientists. Pfft. What do they know eh? We need some of that common sense instead. We've had enough of experts, let's use our instincts instead. Great plan.

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/scientists-criticise-uk-government-over-following-the-science

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/scientists-criticise-uk-government-over-following-the-science

 

 

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That article doesn't advocate for not trusting scientists and using common sense. It's also in the guardian.

[hypochondriac]

Only you saying it was out of context I used it as my opinion that we had Government own slides saying as much.

 

Here you go quick google https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/05/uk-coronavirus-death-toll-rises-above-32000-to-highest-in-europe

 

Wait is over go have a cup of tea

 

 

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Lol so I assume you'll just ignore my question then. A guardian headline about the death rate just proves my point.

[waylander]

So my point being that maybe we have trusted the scientists too much and not common sense.

I think at start we should have had task force across all parties and even ex PM’s to offer experience.

 

It’s would take out the politics and maybe some of things done badly handled better.

 

 

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Are you related to Donald Trump?

[shurlock]

Lol so I assume you'll just ignore my question then. A guardian headline about the death rate just proves my point.

 

What do you make of the UK’s excess mortality figures to date? The government believes excess mortality is the best metric to assess the impact of covid-19 and the most reliable for the purposes of cross-country comparison.

[hypochondriac]

What do you make of the UK’s excess mortality figures? The government believes excess mortality is the best metric to assess the impact of covid-19 and the most reliable for the purposes of cross-country comparison.

It's a lot which is clearly a concern. Many thousands dead from the virus and more on top of that due to the lockdown. That doesn't mean we stop listening to experts or think the government wants to kill children by opening schools though.

[shurlock]

It's a lot which is clearly a concern. Many thousands dead from the virus and more on top of that due to the lockdown. That doesn't mean we stop listening to experts or think the government wants to kill children by opening schools though.

 

This makes for particularly depressing reading:

 

https://voxeu.org/article/excess-mortality-england-european-outlier-covid-19-pandemic

 

Agree we shouldn't stop listening to experts, though is an area where the evidence base is unsettled and evolving and equally qualified experts can come to differing conclusions.

Edited 19 May, 2020 by shurlock

[Give it to Ron]

Lol so I assume you'll just ignore my question then. A guardian headline about the death rate just proves my point.

 

Well you are ignoring the Government own slides so we are even.

You didn’t answer about Kawasaki disease a risk or not?

 

 

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[East Kent Saint]

So my point being that maybe we have trusted the scientists too much and not common sense.

I think at start we should have had task force across all parties and even ex PM’s to offer experience.

 

It’s would take out the politics and maybe some of things done badly handled better.

 

We were told by the Govt they were "following the science " but SAGE was made mainly of people that were employed by the Govt plus a few science people and political advisors from No10 so the advice they were following was not " the science" at all .

 

Likewise Acadamy schools that report directly to the Govt are keen to open ASAP , I wonder why ?!!

[Lord Duckhunter]

Likewise Acadamy schools that report directly to the Govt are keen to open ASAP , I wonder why ?!!

 

Less unionised workforce?

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

Well you are ignoring the Government own slides so we are even.

You didn’t answer about Kawasaki disease a risk or not?

 

 

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No I'm not, I haven't ignored anything all I've said is that it's moronic to quote something like second highest death rate out of context and think that's some sort of gotcha. I'm also not the one making the fatuous claim that the government wants to kill children and that we should ignore scientists.

 

Not sure why you are talking about kawasaki disease but of course it is a risk like anything else is. It has affected a relatively small amount of children, there is currently no proven link to covid (in fact the numbers with kawasaki are actually lower than average for this time of year) and last time I checked it had led to one death. As tragic as that is, the measures taken need to be proportionate to the level of risk which is low.

[wild-saint]

Less unionised workforce?

 

 

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And there you go, the reason why schools won’t go back until September. Easy to sit on your arse on full pay for 6 months whilst th economy tanks knowing the unions will protect you.

[East Kent Saint]

Less unionised workforce?

 

I think it is because they are a privitised state school system who get their money direct from the Govt. It is the Boss of one of the Acadamy chains that said they would start on 1st June , no word from any of their teachers , probably because they want to keep their job.

[hypochondriac]

Less unionised workforce?

 

I think it is because they are a privitised state school system who get their money direct from the Govt. It is the Boss of one of the Acadamy chains that said they would start on 1st June , no word from any of their teachers , probably because they want to keep their job.

You realise there's a number of teachers that have been going into school this entire time and many who want to start up again? Also fifty percent of teachers aren't in a union.

[East Kent Saint]

And there you go, the reason why schools won’t go back until September. Easy to sit on your arse on full pay for 6 months whilst th economy tanks knowing the unions will protect you.

 

The schools are still open , the teachers are looking after essential workers children and also teaching remotely . I'm not sure their Union can protect them much these days . After a bit more time and as things get moving in other areas I'm pretty sure schools will be opening fully . Aside from all the issues where exams have not been taken etc etc ...

[The Cat]

You realise there's a number of teachers that have been going into school this entire time and many who want to start up again? Also fifty percent of teachers aren't in a union.

 

Exactly. My partner has been going in. Most of the teachers at her school have been fine. There's been a few who have come up with dubious reasons for not working, and some others who have legitimate health reasons for being off.

 

I'm sure most places have the same mix of resilient staff and some who will say anything to not go in.

[doddisalegend]

 

Exactly. My partner has been going in. Most of the teachers at her school have been fine. There's been a few who have come up with dubious reasons for not working, and some others who have legitimate health reasons for being off.

 

I'm sure most places have the same mix of resilient staff and some who will say anything to not go in.

 

Exactly every workplace is the same. I've worked through the whole lockdown. I had three days at home, when the government first announced the lockdown, and was then recalled by my employer, as essential staff, and have been going into work ever since. Of my team of six I'm the only one working as the rest have had reasons not to. Some of the reasons have been legit and speaking to them they'd like to return to work. Others are just taking advantage of the situation people are the same everywhere.

 

As for teachers my wife is a primary school teacher she has been working throughout lockdown some days in school and some days at home. She is worried about many aspects of the 1st June return which seems pretty normal to me. The government turned on the fear tactics to get people to stay at home so it's pretty natural that it is going to take people time to feel safe again. It's not just teachers who are worried many parents are reluctant to send their kids back even if the schools do re-open.

[Give it to Ron]

And there you go, the reason why schools won’t go back until September. Easy to sit on your arse on full pay for 6 months whilst th economy tanks knowing the unions will protect you.

 

You know nothing about teachers and their pay then.

Many are contracted by hours don’t get paid for holidays and in fact are being asked to work for free .

You of course would do that wouldn’t you?

My daughter has worked all the way through on a rota basis 15 kids are easy to look after of course.

 

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

Exactly every workplace is the same. I've worked through the whole lockdown. I had three days at home, when the government first announced the lockdown, and was then recalled by my employer, as essential staff, and have been going into work ever since. Of my team of six I'm the only one working as the rest have had reasons not to. Some of the reasons have been legit and speaking to them they'd like to return to work. Others are just taking advantage of the situation people are the same everywhere.

 

Interesting that someone else is in the same boat as me regarding their staff . 3 of us voluntarily kept working, whilst the other 7 were furloughed. They then un furloughed anyone who wasn’t in the most vulnerable group, but crucially didn’t ask for any evidence, so only another 2 came back. The next round of furlough they decided that only people that produced a government, hospital or doc shielding letter for them,or someone they live with, will be furloughed. None of the letters have been forthcoming, but loads of excuses have been. Gradually, they’ve all come back to work, despite (in their words) being “at risk”, and they’re all full of tales of how they’ve slipped through the net regarding shielding letters. They’re also all full of tales regarding the fun they’ve had during lockdown, the gardens they’ve tidied up, painting they’ve done, & time they’ve rediscovered the enjoyment of family life. Yes, we volunteered to work, but there’s a definite wedge between the 2 groups. It’s not driven by the volunteers thinking they’re better than the rest or “braver”, it’s just the attitude the furloughed workers have displayed since returning. Only 1 person is anal about the PPE/ social distancing rules at work, the others aren’t,clearly showing some just treated it as one long holiday.

 

 

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Edited 20 May, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[hypochondriac]

You know nothing about teachers and their pay then.

Many are contracted by hours don’t get paid for holidays and in fact are being asked to work for free .

You of course would do that wouldn’t you?

My daughter has worked all the way through on a rota basis 15 kids are easy to look after of course.

 

 

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Loads of teachers aren't doing anything. One of my mates is a teacher at a private school and working bl*ody hard. Three other ones work at primary schools and are working one week on and three weeks off and are sat at home watching Netflix whilst they are off.

[Give it to Ron]

Loads of teachers aren't doing anything. One of my mates is a teacher at a private school and working bl*ody hard. Three other ones work at primary schools and are working one week on and three weeks off and are sat at home watching Netflix whilst they are off.

 

He posted teachers sat on arse for 6 months so that’s not true even your 3 mates are not then

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

He posted teachers sat on arse for 6 months so that’s not true even your 3 mates are not then

 

 

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One week of work a month? No wonder there's no rush to return!

[Give it to Ron]

One week of work a month? No wonder there's no rush to return!

 

That’s not the reason as well you know

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

That’s not the reason as well you know

 

 

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It absolutely is one of the reasons for quite a few.

[hypochondriac]

Why do you suppose the vast majority of nurseries are planning to return on June 1st? Maybe those who run nurseries care about their staff less? What do you reckon? Or could it be that theres a greater financial consideration that both early years workers and managers have that schools and teachers don't have? And the need to save jobs needs to be balanced along with sensible risk management.

[Give it to Ron]

Why do you suppose the vast majority of nurseries are planning to return on June 1st? Maybe those who run nurseries care about their staff less? What do you reckon? Or could it be that theres a greater financial consideration that both early years workers and managers have that schools and teachers don't have? And the need to save jobs needs to be balanced along with sensible risk management.

 

It’s a risk and a balance at the centre of most teachers is child’s welfare...well ones I know.

I am sure same as nurseries are vast majority opening? On my local parish forums many won’t send their children.

 

 

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