The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[Farmer Saint]

I do agree with removal of the triple lock though...sorry TD

[tdmickey3]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

I do agree with removal of the triple lock though...sorry TD

As long as those who need more help get it but means testing is usually a mess

[egg]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think the two kid cap removal is fine, but also needs to be part of a complete rehaul of the benefits system in general.

Two kid cap I'm somewhat torn on, but on balance I would have kept it on affordability rather than moral grounds. The whole welfare system needs overhaul - state pension included. What grates with me is people shouting to slash welfare, but never the part of the welfare system they hope to benefit from. 

[Weston Super Saint]

7 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Inflation down more than expected, 0.5% rate cut please BoE.

Meh.  5+% works for me  - having paid the mortgage off nice and early  

[egg]

3 hours ago, tdmickey3 said:

Fair enough but we know how good all governments are at means testing....

I'm very much on the camp of supporting all those in society who need it, pensioner's included. Getting it right won't be easy, but it's doable.  

[iansums]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Two kid cap I'm somewhat torn on, but on balance I would have kept it on affordability rather than moral grounds. The whole welfare system needs overhaul - state pension included. What grates with me is people shouting to slash welfare, but never the part of the welfare system they hope to benefit from. 

Not me, I agree that the triple lock needs to be scrapped even though it would be detrimental to me personally.

[Lord Duckhunter]

In real terms, the state pension should be worth the same the day you die as the day you retire. In other words should increase with inflation only, a single lock. If that means an increase of .55p, so be it. I don’t blame pensioners for wanting to protect the triple lock though, and it’s not just selfishness. Gordon Brown well and truly fucked private sector pensions, and even now the Government attack the same private pensions with this salary sacrifice stuff.
 

The ridiculous thing is it’s not today’s  pensioners and “gammon” over 50 at the moment who’ll suffer, it’s the next generation and the generation after that. Our generation had a few years with defined benefit pensions, and got decent tax breaks for bunging a few extra quid in. Politicians left pensions alone to give stability and assurance, now they create uncertainty and doubt and look at them as ripe for picking. God knows what age today’s 40year olds will be working to and god knows how they’ll afford a decent retirement. 

[whelk]

41 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm very much on the camp of supporting all those in society who need it, pensioner's included. Getting it right won't be easy, but it's doable.  

You don’t want to be subsidising bastards who deliberately don’t save for pensions when sensible people plan. Will be genuine cases but I know of some who done fuck all when should know better

[hypochondriac]

22 minutes ago, whelk said:

You don’t want to be subsidising bastards who deliberately don’t save for pensions when sensible people plan. Will be genuine cases but I know of some who done fuck all when should know better

TBF though when young people now get old their pensions will essentially be worthless no matter what they save.

[egg]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

TBF though when young people now get old their pensions will essentially be worthless no matter what they save.

I'm not sure about that. Invest well, and they'll be ok. The issue is doing that as property will take priority and getting started there isn't easy. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

In real terms, the state pension should be worth the same the day you die as the day you retire. In other words should increase with inflation only, a single lock. If that means an increase of .55p, so be it. I don’t blame pensioners for wanting to protect the triple lock though, and it’s not just selfishness. Gordon Brown well and truly fucked private sector pensions, and even now the Government attack the same private pensions with this salary sacrifice stuff.
 

The ridiculous thing is it’s not today’s  pensioners and “gammon” over 50 at the moment who’ll suffer, it’s the next generation and the generation after that. Our generation had a few years with defined benefit pensions, and got decent tax breaks for bunging a few extra quid in. Politicians left pensions alone to give stability and assurance, now they create uncertainty and doubt and look at them as ripe for picking. God knows what age today’s 40year olds will be working to and god knows how they’ll afford a decent retirement. 

I fully expect to have been dead for at least a decade, before I'm allowed to retire.

[iansums]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I'm not sure about that. Invest well, and they'll be ok. The issue is doing that as property will take priority and getting started there isn't easy. 

Very true, start early even with small amounts. As Martin Lewis would say, personal finance should be part of the school curriculum.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I'm not sure about that. Invest well, and they'll be ok. The issue is doing that as property will take priority and getting started there isn't easy. 

If you invest money sure. I was talking more about a young person sticking money in a pension scheme. At that point the retirement age will be nearer 80.

Edited Wednesday at 20:58 by hypochondriac

[egg]

1 hour ago, iansums said:

Very true, start early even with small amounts. As Martin Lewis would say, personal finance should be part of the school curriculum.

Agreed. Trigonometry isn't much use in life, but money / life skills are essential. 

[whelk]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

Agreed. Trigonometry isn't much use in life, but money / life skills are essential. 

Useful if you want to know the optimum angle to cross the road in most efficient way. Although who carries a slide rule with them these days

[Gloucester Saint]

Good - sick of UK citizens stirring this up. If you want to kick off and fight, fly out there and get stuck in by all means. Or if you want to advocate for Palestinian rights in a peaceful and constructive way then I actually have plenty of empathy with you. But to chant these slogans such as Intifada and from the River to the Sea are extremist, and incitement to others https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cde65de81jgo

[Turkish]

It seems like every country is in serious debt!

[egg]

25 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It seems like every country is in serious debt!

Yep. The US are different though as the strength of the dollar allows them to borrow without reducing the value of their currency. There's a reason why US foreign policy takes fire at countries who threaten the power of the dollar. Libya, Brics. 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

It seems like every country is in serious debt!

Most of those countries "own" part of the debt of the others. 

[whelk]

56 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Most of those countries "own" part of the debt of the others. 

 

[whelk]

That is probably written for children but might help a few on here

[iansums]

Labour have increased the debt, flatlined growth and punished small businesses and much of the private sector with increased costs and taxes. Apart from that, they’re doing a great job.

[Sir Ralph]

1 hour ago, iansums said:

Labour have increased the debt, flatlined growth and punished small businesses and much of the private sector with increased costs and taxes. Apart from that, they’re doing a great job.

Not one business person you speak to has a good word to say about them. They then claim that they are helping to reduce inflation (still highest in the EU under their watch) but one of the reasons this is  happening because of a lack of growth. Its an economic illiterate party

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Not one business person you speak to has a good word to say about them. They then claim that they are helping to reduce inflation (still highest in the EU under their watch) but this is only happening because of a lack of growth. Its an economic illiterate party

 

By ‘business person’ you probably mean Tory/Reform people and your tax dodging greedy mates.
Don’t worry about exaggerating though as Caroline Leavitt literally said teh other day that 100% of all jobs created under Biden were for immigrants. We have gone past even pretending to tell he truth or being embarrassed by obvious lies

Can you point to a Western European govt that has cracked theirs growth, inflation, full employment thing? With the right legislation we can blow China and India out of the water 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, iansums said:

Labour have increased the debt

Genuine question, do you understand what you mean when levelling that as a criticism?

[Sir Ralph]

15 minutes ago, whelk said:

By ‘business person’ you probably mean Tory/Reform people and your tax dodging greedy mates.
Don’t worry about exaggerating though as Caroline Leavitt literally said teh other day that 100% of all jobs created under Biden were for immigrants. We have gone past even pretending to tell he truth or being embarrassed by obvious lies

Can you point to a Western European govt that has cracked theirs growth, inflation, full employment thing? With the right legislation we can blow China and India out of the water 

By business person I am referring to a wide range of people. A few of them voted Labour because they were fed up with the Tories and I think most of them said they wont do it again or are certainly thinking of voting for someone else.

Labour states it is pro business. It courts business on the face of it and sticks to fiscal rules which is good. However, it achieves this by taxing businesses and those that own them to achieve this. Not pro business in reality - when the Cabinet say this I do not believe they understand what they are saying or how to get there. What policies has it brought in to help businesses day-to-day?

Ireland is a good example of a western country that has achieved economic growth. Do you know how?

Edited 8 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

Genuine question, do you understand what you mean when levelling that as a criticism?

They have increased day to day public spending and welfare spending at the cost of the tax payer and business. Do you dispute that and do you think you grow an economy doing that?

Edited 9 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[whelk]

9 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

By business person I am referring to a wide range of people. A few of them voted Labour because they were fed up with the Tories and I think most of them said they wont do it again or are certainly thinking of voting for someone else.

Labour states it is pro business. It courts business on the face of it and sticks to fiscal rules which is good. However, it achieves this by taxing businesses and those that own them to achieve this. No pro business in reality. What policies has it brought in to help businesses day-to-day?

Ireland is a good example of a western country that has achieved economic growth. Do you know how?

You added Ireland to your original reply. Google it? And incidentally I do yes - do you know anything about post the Tiger economy? We keep having a similar discussion- just wanting growth isn’t as straightforward as you think ie cut taxes, there are so many global factors that influence.

The NI rise did not help growth, but neither does shrinking public services and lowering minimum wage. I get you blame Labour for all the gloom but the gloom isn’t easy to clear. I don’t want to endlessly repeat though as made my thoughts clear many time about ageing population, immigration, disposable income going on digital services that pay fuck all tax, as do many other corporations like Nando’s, Starbucks, Vodafone……

[whelk]

18 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

They have increased day to day public spending and welfare spending at the cost of the tax payer and business. Do you dispute that and do you think you grow an economy doing that?

Welfare needs reform and not helpful Starmer couldn’t get it through. Other than the two child cap I am not aware of any ideological changes to expand. Do you get annoyed at the increase public spending required to sustain the triple lock on state pensions?

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Sir Ralph said:

Not one business person you speak to has a good word to say about them.  

 

You need to get out more.

[Sir Ralph]

26 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You need to get out more.

Great response. A quality argument. Genuinely no disrespect but based on your previous explanation of your work background I doubt you are really commenting from a place of experience. 

[Sir Ralph]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Welfare needs reform and not helpful Starmer couldn’t get it through. Other than the two child cap I am not aware of any ideological changes to expand. Do you get annoyed at the increase public spending required to sustain the triple lock on state pensions?

Yes I don’t support the triple lock. Welfare was bloated already it didn’t need adding to. Most other parties would have reformed it. Whether Starmer tried or not, the Labour Party has increased welfare spending at the cost of the tax payer and business 

I added Ireland because I realised I hadn’t responded to your question in this respect. Of course it’s not that straightforward but countries like Ireland and Poland who have performed better over recent years have encouraged pro business policies like lower tax. Unlike the uk. I’m not saying it’s easy to facilitate growth but they have gone about it the wrong way and I believe there should be a better business environment than has been developed over the past 18 months

Edited 7 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[egg]

3 hours ago, iansums said:

Labour have increased the debt, flatlined growth and punished small businesses and much of the private sector with increased costs and taxes. Apart from that, they’re doing a great job.

We've just the lowest November borrowing in 4 years. 

Lower interest rates. 

Lower inflation.

Lower net migration.

Don't let those facts impact opinions though. 

Edited 6 hours ago by egg

[whelk]

I know a prison governor and they were telling me this a while back - the madness of one department in effect trying to break another albeit not knowingly. Would be same in care so all the Reform voters be prepared after the tub thumping you need to face reality 

https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-foreign-prison-staff-offered-emergency-extension-to-visa-to-stop-the-prison-system-collapsing-13485595

[egg]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

I know a prison governor and they were telling me this a while back - the madness of one department in effect trying to break another albeit not knowingly. Would be same in care so all the Reform voters be prepared after the tub thumping you need to face reality 

https://news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-foreign-prison-staff-offered-emergency-extension-to-visa-to-stop-the-prison-system-collapsing-13485595

It'll be the same in various sectors. People spout and support views without playing the tape forwards. 

[badgerx16]

47 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Great response. A quality argument. Genuinely no disrespect but based on your previous explanation of your work background I doubt you are really commenting from a place of experience. 

I am commenting based on the businessmen I know who are members of the Labour Party, some being councillors.

[Farmer Saint]

We can't keep having the same conversations every week can we? I think if @Sir Ralph wants answers to his questions he needs to re-read the past 100 pages of this thread as they have been answered ad infinitum.

Edited 6 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[iansums]

4 hours ago, whelk said:

Genuine question, do you understand what you mean when levelling that as a criticism?

I believe so, yes.

[iansums]

2 hours ago, egg said:

We've just the lowest November borrowing in 4 years. Just one month, overall it’s up

Lower interest rates. Yes, good news

Lower inflation. Again, good news but lagging behind the EU when we were lower

Lower net migration. Mostly down to reduced numbers of students and workers and increased emigration.

Don't let those facts impact opinions though. 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by iansums

[badgerx16]

5 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Not one business person you speak to has a good word to say about them. 

I think thesse might..........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/oct/26/companies-that-donated-to-labour-awarded-138m-in-contracts-study-finds

 

"The new analysis shows the pattern has continued under Labour, with eight companies that donated more than £580,000 to the party receiving government contracts worth nearly £138m within two years of their donation (between July 2024 and June 2025)."

 

Then of course there is Lord Sainsbury, who I think qualifies as "a business person", who has donated millions over the years, and many others.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by badgerx16

[Gloucester Saint]

6 hours ago, iansums said:

Labour have increased the debt, flatlined growth and punished small businesses and much of the private sector with increased costs and taxes. Apart from that, they’re doing a great job.

Lib Dem voter and no fan of Labour and especially Reeves.

However, whilst I agree with many things you’ve posted recently, this one is miles off reality I’m afraid. Not saying they’re doing a great job at all, but the economy was fucked from 2020 onwards even before the pandemic hit.

That wasn’t Starmer, Reeves, Sunak, Hunt, Javid, May or Hammond. That was fairly, squarely and unarguably Johnson and Farage’s doing, which is why neither of them should ever be allowed anywhere near levers of power. They set our economy back decades all for a bit of xenophobia and in Boris’s case, pure ambition. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 hours ago, egg said:

We've just the lowest November borrowing in 4 years. 

Lower interest rates. 

Lower inflation.

Lower net migration.

Don't let those facts impact opinions though. 

😂😂 Net migration, if more people fuck off because of the state of the country, that’s not a good thing. 

😂😂fucking tories borrowing all that money during Covid. 
 

 

How’s the unemployment rate going? 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

😂😂 Net migration, if more people fuck off because of the state of the country, that’s not a good thing. 

😂😂fucking tories borrowing all that money during Covid. 
 

 

How’s the unemployment rate going? 

Net migration going up - moan. Going down - moan. 

We could all pick stats that are positive, or negative, but that's daft. 

Long term NHS waiting times reduced. 

Millions more NHS appointments given. 

Record judicial sitting days to cope with delays and volume. 

Probate grant times halved. 

Etc. 

Yep shit loads of negatives too, but this idea that everything is getting worse is bollox. 

[Sir Ralph]

6 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

We can't keep having the same conversations every week can we? I think if @Sir Ralph wants answers to his questions he needs to re-read the past 100 pages of this thread as they have been answered ad infinitum.

I find it amusing that people that have no idea still support labour still and pretend they are pro business. Comedians. If you had a clue you wouldn’t talk BS. #mainlytheunemployedorgovernmentemployees

Edited 22 minutes ago by Sir Ralph