Will Still

[CB Fry]

He can chat as much as you like about tailoring a system to fit the players but it is absolute bullshit if you are picking Adam Armstrong as your front line forward. Over and over again.

 

Edited August 23 by CB Fry

[Willo of Whiteley]

Tactically awful decisions today.

Back five, again. Really?

[bugenhagen]

I destest football played with five at the back, so as long as he keeps doing this, I'll never really rate him.

The three CB's usually means that one (or two) of them are not good enough. We keep chopping and changing, so whoever we play looks like a calamity waiting to happen.

Find a good pairing in a back four and stick with them, that is always the key to building a team in my book.

I have no idea what Will is trying to build...

He keeps boasting about how the players are so much fitter than before, but every bloody manager who comes in to a new job says that. Doesn't mean shit. Maybe they can run longer, but there are no warriors out there, no fight. We were bullied today.

[bpsaint]

Charlatan.

I know it’s early days but its looking like another Sports Republic classic appointment.

[CSA96]

3 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

Charlatan.

I know it’s early days but its looking like another Sports Republic classic appointment.

Writing a new manager off after four games (2W, 1D, 1L) because he lost a game by one goal and is waiting for new signings. Some lily-livered elements of this fanbase really do deserve everything they get 

[bpsaint]

6 hours ago, CSA96 said:

Writing a new manager off after four games (2W, 1D, 1L) because he lost a game by one goal and is waiting for new signings. Some lily-livered elements of this fanbase really do deserve everything they get 

A. We’ve looked crap in every game this season, with no apparent system. All this talk of how much fitter the players are etc yet we’ve huffed and puffed in every match.

B. What kind of a sane man selects Adam Armstrong up front every game even though Stevie Wonder can see it isn’t working.

Your little played P4,W2,D1,L1 point is laughable. We fluked a last minute winner at home to a newly promoted side, squeezed past an average league 1 side who looked better than us for most of the game, drew away at apparent promotion favourites that have been beaten by Bromley and Preston, and lost at home to Stoke. Fucking Stoke. With our apparent promotion worthy squad.

If all that appeases you and you can’t see the warning signs then you’re clearly easily pleased.

Edited August 24 by bpsaint

[a1ex2001]

It’s too early to write him off but if he sticks to playing three centre backs for the next couple of games I will be firmly in the manager out camp.  I struggle to think of a single instance of any team being successful in English football playing 3 centre backs and we are always awful when we do!

[CSA96]

38 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

It’s too early to write him off but if he sticks to playing three centre backs for the next couple of games I will be firmly in the manager out camp.  I struggle to think of a single instance of any team being successful in English football playing 3 centre backs and we are always awful when we do!

 

[Willo of Whiteley]

I wouldn’t write him off, but Jesus Christ you can’t deny those tactics were awful today? Surely?

How many people looked at that team sheet pre-match and thought “AA solo up front, Fraser at RB, three CBs, a back five? At home, yeah we’re winning this”?

[Bakovnetski]

He'll probably want to walk by Christmas if Spors doesn't get the players in 

[Gloucester Saint]

11 minutes ago, Bakovnetski said:

He'll probably want to walk by Christmas if Spors doesn't get the players in 

Before that I reckon, or Spors is gone by October (more likely). He’d want assurances that Solak will be spending right up to the PSR limit for 26/27 though. 

[Harry_SFC]

37 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

I wouldn’t write him off, but Jesus Christ you can’t deny those tactics were awful today? Surely?

How many people looked at that team sheet pre-match and thought “AA solo up front, Fraser at RB, three CBs, a back five? At home, yeah we’re winning this”?

Agreed it was poor yesterday. We shouldn't be playing a back five but I think everyone should give him the benefit of the doubt until the window has closed. If we get the players in for him and he's still playing 3/5 at the back with AA up top then fair enough, have a pop. 

Edited August 24 by Harry_SFC

[Gloucester Saint]

4 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Agreed it was poor yesterday but I think everyone should give him the benefit of the doubt until the window has closed. If we get the players in for him and he's still playing 3/5 at the back with AA up top then fair enough, have a pop. 

His post-match comments were indirectly pointed at Spors and Solak, so if those two don’t co-operate next week, I suspect it’s interim manager Adam Lallana against the skates. Hope he is putting them both under some intense pressure and he should, his stock is good, theirs is rock bottom. 

I despise Harry Redknapp but he was a master manipulator with DoFs and boards. Need a bit of those dark arts right now to pull SR along by their noses. 

Edited August 24 by Gloucester Saint

[Harry_SFC]

19 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

His post-match comments were indirectly pointed at Spors and Solak, so if those two don’t co-operate next week, I suspect it’s interim manager Adam Lallana against the skates. Hope he is putting them both under some intense pressure and he should, his stock is good, theirs is rock bottom. 

I despise Harry Redknapp but he was a master manipulator with DoFs and boards. Need a bit of those dark arts right now to pull SR along by their noses. 

Totally agree. This is Saints we are talking about so I've got very low expectations for this coming week. The players we have just don't look suitable for what Still wants to do. This is the issue when you go from giving Martin a free reign then changing the approach with the subsequent manager(s).

However we've had almost the whole window to change that and are yet to do so. 

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, Harry_SFC said:

Totally agree. This is Saints we are talking about so I've got very low expectations for this coming week. The players we have just don't look suitable for what Still wants to do. This is the issue when you go from giving Martin a free reign then changing the approach with the subsequent manager(s).

However we've had almost the whole window to change that and are yet to do so. 

If Still stays, I’d be very pointed if I were him towards the owners and question the lack of direction to protect my reputation.

Nuno is doing a very fine job of that at Forest with an owner that is an even worse basket case than ours. 

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Totally agree. This is Saints we are talking about so I've got very low expectations for this coming week. The players we have just don't look suitable for what Still wants to do. This is the issue when you go from giving Martin a free reign then changing the approach with the subsequent manager(s).

However we've had almost the whole window to change that and are yet to do so. 

So in effect you are saying that we have employed the wrong manager for the players that we have in our squad?

[Gloucester Saint]

18 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

So in effect you are saying that we have employed the wrong manager for the players that we have in our squad?

Far from the first time:

Pellegrino - hired on the basis of bringing back Poch and Ronald’s pressing football when he’s a 4-5-1 shut-up-shop merchant at slow pace

Jones - likes athletes and players with some bite and snap, not technical players, inherited an incredibly passive squad who were slower, smaller and more technical (and the summer 2022 signings didn’t suit Ralph either). He didn’t handle it well at all but some empathy.

Martin - a squad not comfortable on the half-turn and even Pep is struggling to make that style work now on City’s astronomical budget, let alone Martin’s horrific start at Rangers

Spors said it right first time that the stables needed a full cleansing but I suspect Solak and Ankerson have refused to authorise the fee and wage write-offs needed at SR board level to make that happen, because it would mean admitting failure. Whereas Brady has realised he has had to take a few painful losses to get Brum going forwards again. 

Edited August 24 by Gloucester Saint

[Harry_SFC]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

So in effect you are saying that we have employed the wrong manager for the players that we have in our squad?

Not all of the players - but probably 4/5 of them need replacing for a different profile. Something Spors admitted he wanted to do but has so far failed to achieve. 

[Whitey Grandad]

35 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Not all of the players - but probably 4/5 of them need replacing for a different profile. Something Spors admitted he wanted to do but has so far failed to achieve. 

Wouldn't it have been better to get a manager who could work with the tools that we have? Or at least one who could work with what we have whilst he assembled the squad that he would prefer instead of blaming the tools that he has available.

It's still early in the season but five at the back? That's just ideological stupidity. 

[CSA96]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Wouldn't it have been better to get a manager who could work with the tools that we have? Or at least one who could work with what we have whilst he assembled the squad that he would prefer instead of blaming the tools that he has available.

It's still early in the season but five at the back? That's just ideological stupidity. 

We’ve had enough of Russell Martin’s dogma and arrogance, we want honest, straight talking pragmatism!

No, not like that! I’ve had enough of this honest, straight talking pragmatism!

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, CSA96 said:

We’ve had enough of Russell Martin’s dogma and arrogance, we want honest, straight talking pragmatism!

No, not like that! I’ve had enough of this honest, straight talking pragmatism!

He has not shown any yet.

[CSA96]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

He has not shown any yet.

Apart from the bit where he changed formation in preseason, then admitted that he’ll shelve his preferred formation for a little bit to cater to the players that he’s got available and revisit it after we make some signings?

I can’t remember those kind of words or thoughts ever passing the lips of Russell Martin, that’s for sure 

If you think he’s not being honest or pragmatic then I don’t know what else to say, quite frankly

[Lord Duckhunter]

Do other fans constantly blame the board/ recruitment for managers failings? We had it with Ralph, with Lego and now starting to get it with Still. It’s the managers job to get the best out the players he’s given, and on the very small sample size so far, this bloke isn’t doing so. 
 

Personally, I like a back 3 (it’s not a back 5 no matter how many times posters post it is). But, you need defenders/wing backs/Central midfield capable of doing so. In Manning, Wellington & Frasier I feel we have the wing backs capable at this level, but our centre halves and Downes/Charles lack the necessary skill set. You need defenders that are comfortable defending wider, ours are like a fish out of water when they get ran into the channels. You need the central of the 3 to be capable of playing the ball quickly and he also needs to be able to read the game. Our central midfielders don’t have the discipline to play the role ( think OR). To then compound it all by playing an ineffective midget up front is fucking borderline gross negligence. He seems to have caught the Lego disease of “this is how I want to play”, instead of “this is how we need to play with this squad”.
 

Gradually move towards your preferred system over a couple of windows, but here and now put round pegs in round holes. In other words, do your fucking job….Not impressed so far, but it’s incredibly early days. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, CSA96 said:

Apart from the bit where he changed formation in preseason, then admitted that he’ll shelve his preferred formation for a little bit to cater to the players that he’s got available and revisit it after we make some signings?

I can’t remember those kind of words or thoughts ever passing the lips of Russell Martin, that’s for sure 

If you think he’s not being honest or pragmatic then I don’t know what else to say, quite frankly

So what if he changed his formation pre season, that is what pre season is for?

So far, when it matters, we have seen nothing of this pragmatism and flexibility 

[CSA96]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

So what if he changed his formation pre season, that is what pre season is for?

So far, when it matters, we have seen nothing of this pragmatism and flexibility 

Apart from changing formation second half against Wrexham?
Apart from hooking Armstrong at HT yesterday and then going with two up top?

Apart from pulling Quarshie out of the lineup after the game at Ipswich and going for a more combative player in Nathan Wood?

Come on, you can make your point without lying about things surely  

Edited August 24 by CSA96

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

If you think he’s not being honest or pragmatic then I don’t know what else to say, quite frankly

Moving from one system we’re not suited to play, to another one we’re not suited to play, isn’t being “pragmatic”. Playing a back 4 with Charles/Downes centrally , with Fraiser & Robinson wide, MF in the 10, and Stewart or Downs up top is.

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, CSA96 said:

Apart from changing formation second half against Wrexham?
Apart from hooking Armstrong at HT yesterday and then going with two up top?

Apart from pulling Quarshie out of the lineup after the game at Ipswich and going for a more combative player in Nathan Wood?

Come on, you can make your point without lying about things surely  

Starting every game the same that puts us on the back foot is not being flexible at all....

Playing Armstrong up top on his own constantly is not being flexible. 

 

[CSA96]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

Moving from one system we’re not suited to play, to another one we’re not suited to play, isn’t being “pragmatic”. Playing a back 4 with Charles/Downes centrally , with Fraiser & Robinson wide, MF in the 10, and Stewart or Downs up top is.

We used this formation in preseason and a L significant number of forum users were moaning about how awful we looked in it and how we looked better in the 3-4-3… 

Also, MF is not a 10

[Willo of Whiteley]

1 hour ago, Harry_SFC said:

Agreed it was poor yesterday. We shouldn't be playing a back five but I think everyone should give him the benefit of the doubt until the window has closed. If we get the players in for him and he's still playing 3/5 at the back with AA up top then fair enough, have a pop. 

To a point I agree.

But he could’ve stuck Armstrong out wide, he could’ve played Sugawara RB, Fraser out wide, he had three other strikers to select etc etc

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Apart from pulling Quarshie out of the lineup after the game at Ipswich and going for a more combative player in Nathan Wood?

It’s still 3 centre halves, changing the names isn’t being flexible. 

[CSA96]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Starting every game the same that puts us on the back foot is not being flexible at all....

Playing Armstrong up top on his own constantly is not being flexible. 

 

Well yes, if you ignore the examples of flexibility and focus on one example of inflexibility (after three games) then there is no flexibility. That’s right

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, CSA96 said:

Well yes, if you ignore the examples of flexibility and focus on one example of inflexibility (after three games) then there is no flexibility. That’s right

He is starting games with a rigid system that is fucking awful, we look awful and play awful

Yes, he chases games and uses the deep squad he has, which most managers would do.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Also, MF is not a 10

Says who? The bloke that plays Armstrong as a centre forward and thinks THB can defend wide in a 3. 

[CSA96]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Says who? The bloke that plays Armstrong as a centre forward and thinks THB can defend wide in a 3. 

I think most people on here know that MF isn’t a 10 at this stage, no? He’s better running from deep, moving the team up the pitch and lifting the tempo, which is also something that his managers have said about him 

[gio1saints]

If he wanted a practice at a 442 or simply four at the back and perm how you like the rest this is one option ? 
 

                        Alex

Mads.  Edwards.  Quarshie. Manning. 
 

Wee Man.   Downes. Charles. Matsuki. 
 

          Downs.       Archer/Stewart. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

He is starting games with a rigid system that is fucking awful, we look awful and play awful

Yes, he chases games and uses the deep squad he has, which most managers would do.

Exactly. 
 

We chuck on forwards left right and centre & take a centre half off, because we’re losing. It’s reactive, he’s shown zero flexibility when it comes to his actual starting line up. 

[danjosaint]

Yeah but he took out Quarshie for Wood and all that 

[S-Clarke]

At the end of the day, the success of any manager boils down to one thing really.

The quality of the player he has available to him. Put Koeman, Poch, Adkins in charge of this squad at this moment of time and they'd equally struggle to get a consistent tune out of them.

If a manager has crap players, he will ultimately get crap results. 

Russell Martin was wedded to his approach with inferior players, but if you put him into the Man City system with players who 'play his way', then he'd probably get success. It's as simple as that really.

We can keep cycling through managers such as Rusk, Juric, Will Still if we want, but the same consistent factor remains - we're still playing Bazunu in goal, Jack Stephens at CB and Adam Armstrong up front.

As a club we keep trying to repeat the known flaws of the past, somehow expecting different results. The squad needs major major work before next week. I don't know if we'll get it that soon, as this may take a few windows to sort.

Edited August 24 by S-Clarke

[Lord Duckhunter]

12 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

He is starting games with a rigid system that is fucking awful, we look awful and play awful

Yes, he chases games and uses the deep squad he has, which most managers would do.

 

Yep. 

Edited August 24 by Lord Duckhunter

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

At the end of the day, the success of any manager boils down to one thing really.

The quality of the player he has available to him. Put Koeman, Poch, Adkins in charge of this squad at this moment of time and they'd equally struggle to get a consistent tune out of them.

If a manager has crap players, he will ultimately get crap results. 

Russell Martin was wedded to his approach with inferior players, but if you put him into the Man City system with players who 'play his way', then he'd probably get success. It's as simple as that really.

We can keep cycling through managers such as Rusk, Juric, Will Still if we want, but the same consistent factor remains - we're still playing Bazunu in goal, Jack Stephens at CB and Adam Armstrong up front.

And that’s down to SR not biting the bullet as Kat had to with writing off Osvaldo. Sometimes in a business an investment goes wrong and you have to pay to fix it. SR just won’t do it. In fact, they’ve doubled down in many of them.

Mind you, not sure Martin would get success at City - look at the horrific second goal yesterday caused by needless playing from the back. Horrible football and delighted to see it being undone.

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

And that’s down to SR not biting the bullet as Kat had to with writing off Osvaldo. Sometimes in a business an investment goes wrong and you have to pay to fix it. SR just won’t do it. In fact, they’ve doubled down in many of them.

Mind you, not sure Martin would get success at City - look at the horrific second goal yesterday caused by needless playing from the back. Horrible football and delighted to see it being undone.

They're arrogant, sticking with players as they're projects. They need time etc.

We're in a position now, totally different from last time out, where we are an incredibly weaker side - so we need ready made players who can start for us tomorrow. As a squad, we are now in a position in this league where players like Bazunu will harm our league placing and aspirations because we don't have the quality at the top end to bail them out.

Edited August 24 by S-Clarke

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Russell Martin was wedded to his approach with inferior players, but if you put him into the Man City system with players who 'play his way', then he'd probably get success. It's as simple as that really.

Where does this rubbish come from. He’s got far far superior players than the rest of the league at Rangers & hadn’t won a league game yet. The margins at the highest level are so minimal, that a shit manager could easily fail with the best players. You’ve drunk the Lego Kool Aid. If he went to City, he’d fail. 

[CB Fry]

10 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Russell Martin was wedded to his approach with inferior players, but if you put him into the Man City system with players who 'play his way', then he'd probably get success. It's as simple as that really.

Why doesn't Man City or PSG or Real or Barcelona just hire Russell Martin then? He'd be cheaper than whoever they have now and he'll get success "simple as that really". 

Or, maybe, just work with me here, it is not as simple as that really.

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

Why doesn't Man City or PSG or Real or Barcelona just hire Russell Martin then? He'd be cheaper than whoever they have now and he'll get success "simple as that really". 

Or, maybe, just work with me here, it is not as simple as that really.

I think the majority of success boils down to having good players, but obviously as a manager they need something about them to fully execute it - but better players can hide a managers flaws IMO. I'm not a fan of Martin at all, so he would probably overcomplicate it with better players..

But basically to the original point, I think it is completely and utterly ludicrous that people are actually questioning or have doubts around Still at this stage, it's not like we're in November or December - it's August. It's utter nuts in my mind.

It feels like as a fanbase we've been conditioned to just change the manager when things aren't going how we want, but I think we just need to take a step back and look at the player available to Still, which funnily enough is the same trash that has been failing us under previous managers too. It's a horrible bunch.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

I think it is completely and utterly ludicrous that people are actually questioning or have doubts around Still at this stage,

Why? 
 

It’s a forum to discuss things. It’s not “ludicrous” to question whether Downs is a good signing, why can’t we discuss doubts about Still. Nobody is saying we should bin him, but people are concerned with elements of his short time in charge. If he plays Jack Stephen’s up front next week, is it “ludicrous “ to question his decision? 

[Badger]

2 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Before that I reckon, or Spors is gone by October (more likely). He’d want assurances that Solak will be spending right up to the PSR limit for 26/27 though. 

I can’t see Dragan having another cull so soon after the last one. But who knows it may push him closer to selling up. 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

Why? 
 

It’s a forum to discuss things. It’s not “ludicrous” to question whether Downs is a good signing, why can’t we discuss doubts about Still. Nobody is saying we should bin him, but people are concerned with elements of his short time in charge. If he plays Jack Stephen’s up front next week, is it “ludicrous “ to question his decision? 

I think it's way too early to question anyone who has been here for 5 mins in my opinion.

That includes players too.

If the same things are happening in December and we were going into January with the same concerns, then maybe yeah - but I don't think there's a valid reason to criticise until we have a much bigger sample size of games, 3 just isn't enough to come to any conclusion or form any strong opinion.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

I think it's way too early to question anyone who has been here for 5 mins in my opinion.

That includes players too.

If the same things are happening in December and we were going into January with the same concerns, then maybe yeah - but I don't think there's a valid reason to criticise until we have a much bigger sample size of games, 3 just isn't enough to come to any conclusion or form any strong opinion.

It’s legitimate to question a managers tactics no matter how long he’s been in charge. What do you want, a non criticism clause put on posts? 
 

Calling for him to go after 3 games is clearly ridiculous, questioning his decisions and tactics is perfectly reasonable. 

[Gloucester Saint]

11 minutes ago, Badger said:

I can’t see Dragan having another cull so soon after the last one. But who knows it may push him closer to selling up. 

It’s beyond strange that he’s funded Spors coming in, totally re-booted the scouting and recruitment, but nothing material seems to be changing in terms of playing personnel and giving manager what he needs, which we haven’t done since Koeman. Got to be Ankerson stirring it at SR board level. 

[S-Clarke]

7 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s legitimate to question a managers tactics no matter how long he’s been in charge. What do you want, a non criticism clause put on posts? 
 

Calling for him to go after 3 games is clearly ridiculous, questioning his decisions and tactics is perfectly reasonable. 

I was more focusing on the people calling him to go, which I have seen (not just on here).

Nothing wrong with debate at all, I'm not saying that, it's the nuts comments from people suggesting he can leave and calling out Downs as not ever being able to perform for us (not just on here btw)

Edited August 24 by S-Clarke