The Burnham Years - Can the new(ish) broom sweep clean?

[iansums]

35 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

So, 0.48% of property value - would you be better or worse off?

Me, personally, it depends on how they calculate the value. On current value, we'd be far worse off as we've invested nearly £400k in our property over the past 4 years, but if it's done based on the past purchase price in 2019, then we'll be about the same as current Council Tax charges.

Feels completely fair as people with a £250k property in Blackpool pay the same as someone in a £2.5m property in Westminster.

Amazing how much loose change you can find in the back of the sofa.

[badgerx16]

37 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

So, 0.48% of property value - would you be better or worse off?

 

Our Council Tax would be less than half of what it currently is !

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, iansums said:

Amazing how much loose change you can find in the back of the sofa.

His 'charge' will sky rocket once the cycle of property valuations kick in (3 yearly?)

In places like Blackpool (often used as an example), where property prices are very low. How will it work if the majority, probably a significant majority, have their council tax slashed....will their bins still be collected, will there be enough money for the endless HMOs?

Edited 8 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[Farmer Saint]

38 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

His 'charge' will sky rocket once the cycle of property valuations kick in (3 yearly?)

In places like Blackpool (often used as an example), where property prices are very low. How will it work if the majority, probably a significant majority, have their council tax slashed....will their bins still be collected, will there be enough money for the endless HMOs?

It won't sky rocket by any means, it will increase though.

[Farmer Saint]

45 minutes ago, iansums said:

Amazing how much loose change you can find in the back of the sofa.

What's the relevance of this comment?

[badgerx16]

47 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

His 'charge' will sky rocket once the cycle of property valuations kick in (3 yearly?)

In places like Blackpool (often used as an example), where property prices are very low. How will it work if the majority, probably a significant majority, have their council tax slashed....will their bins still be collected, will there be enough money for the endless HMOs?

Blackpool has plenty of higher value propeties to balance out the central cess pits, plus when the new Unitary is formed by merging with Fylde and Wyre, the town will be subsidised by places such as St Annes, Lytham, Cleveleys, Poulton, and Garstang. ( Though Fleetwood would drag it back down a bit ).

Edited 7 hours ago by badgerx16

[tdmickey3]

Not true' Burnham looking at scrapping council tax or stamp duty, says No 10

Suggestions that plans to scrap and replace council tax or stamp duty are "under active consideration" are "not true", Number 10 has said. 

It follows the i Paper reporting that Andy Burnham is looking at changing the system to an annual house-price tax.

But asked about this report this morning, the PM's spokesperson slapped it down, calling the suggestion "not true".

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Not true' Burnham looking at scrapping council tax or stamp duty, says No 10

Suggestions that plans to scrap and replace council tax or stamp duty are "under active consideration" are "not true", Number 10 has said. 

It follows the i Paper reporting that Andy Burnham is looking at changing the system to an annual house-price tax.

But asked about this report this morning, the PM's spokesperson slapped it down, calling the suggestion "not true".

Oh well, not worth discussing then.

[iansums]

19 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

What's the relevance of this comment?

No relevance at all, just my poor attempt at humour.

[Sir Ralph]

Isnt Council tax a charge for services though. What does it have to do with the value of the property. If you have a 5 bed in blackpool or london why do you rely more on services if you are in london, rather than blackpool? Hopefully they dont bring it in.

Transitional arrangements would be required as if you have already paid stamp duty you shouldnt have to pay this and it would catch too many pensioners otherwise that couldnt afford it. My Council tax would double to just shy of 5 figures annually. It would be a joke if it was brought in, just another way of taxing those who have worked hard. The statement after it was batted down by the spokesman was that the chancellor would be taking a view on all matters.

Edited 6 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Isnt Council tax a charge for services though. What does it have to do with the value of the property. If you have a 5 bed in blackpool or london why do you rely more on services if you are in london, rather than blackpool? Hopefully they dont bring it in. Transitional arrangements would be required as if you have already paid council tax you shouldnt have to pay this and it would catch too many pensioners otherwise that couldnt afford it. My Council tax would double to just shy of 5 figures annually. It would be a joke if it was brought in, just another way of taxing those who have worked hard. The statement after it was batted down by the spokesman was that the chancellor would be taking a view on all matters.

So all taxes should be flat rate and take no account of income? It’s about what you get back?

[Sir Ralph]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

So all taxes should be flat rate and take no account of income? It’s about what you get back?

This is about council tax. What is the purpose of Council tax?

Edited 6 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

This is about council tax. What is the purpose of Council tax?

To contribute to the cost of local govt. Surprised you don’t know this?

[The Kraken]

Yeah bring back poll tax, that was much better.

[Sir Ralph]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

To contribute to the cost of local govt. Surprised you don’t know this?

Yes for local public infrastructure that we use such as rubbish and recycling, street lighting, libraries, police and fire funding etc. My genuine question is why is it that Council tax could now be based on national values? Does somebody in a 5 bed house in Blackpool use less or more infrastructure than someone in a 5 bed in london? My understanding is that with this new tax my money would go to fund infrastrucutre in other area, not in my local area. Why? It is irrelevant to mitigating my public infrastructure usage footprint as its in a completely different area. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[iansums]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

To contribute to the cost of local govt. Surprised you don’t know this?

And you don't get any extra local government services by having a larger (more expensive) property.

[Farmer Saint]

5 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Yes for local public infrastructure that we use such as rubbish and recycling, street lighting, libraries, police and fire funding etc. My genuine question is why is it that Council tax could now be based on national values? Does somebody in a 5 bed house in Blackpool use less or more infrastructure than someone in a 5 bed in london? My understanding is that with this new tax my money would go to fund infrastrucutre in other area, not in my local area. Why? It is irrelevant to mitigating my public infrastructure usage footprint as its in a completely different area. 

Public services are far more expensive to administer in London though, you're aware of that aren't you?

[iansums]

10 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Yeah bring back poll tax, that was much better.

Possibly, the fairest system of all. Everybody benefits from local government so everybody (of working age) should pay. I understand this won't happen of course, the government will be trying to squeeze more money out of those who can afford it.

[whelk]

Fucking hell the level of argument is beyond comedy. 

[Sir Ralph]

 

 

Just now, whelk said:

Fucking hell the level of argument is beyond comedy. 

Why?

[tdmickey3]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Oh well, not worth discussing then.

Wont stop Ralphy boy banging on and on though

[whelk]

Maybe single people should pay 5 times less tax than someone with a family of 5. More people to defend so should be contributing proportionally to the defence budget. Maybe let them off any tax that contributes to education as well?

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, whelk said:

Maybe single people should pay 5 times less tax than someone with a family of 5. More people to defend so should be contributing proportionally to the defence budget. Maybe let them off any tax that contributes to education as well?

Taxation for selfish cunts. Wish they'd all piss off to Dubai with their fake mates.

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, iansums said:

And you don't get any extra local government services by having a larger (more expensive) property.

You do realise no one has made this argument ever? It’s a wealth assessment, albeit quite flawed

[Sir Ralph]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Maybe single people should pay 5 times less tax than someone with a family of 5. More people to defend so should be contributing proportionally to the defence budget. Maybe let them off any tax that contributes to education as well?

Income tax already has a scale whereby if you earn more you pay more tax.

In terms of Council tax this is for paying for local public infrastrucure. you havent answered why somebody in a 5 bed in London should pay the same as someone in Blackpool in a 5 bed property (who benefits from a lower cost of living) and that money doesnt go to the local area that the larger council tax payer lives in. 

[iansums]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

You do realise no one has made this argument ever? It’s a wealth assessment, albeit quite flawed

a) How would you know? and b) I just did. I'm just making a point.

[Sir Ralph]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Taxation for selfish cunts. Wish they'd all piss off to Dubai with their fake mates.

And they are off. The 'centrists' who cant sensibly debate anything. You have an anger issue. Seek therapy.

[Sir Ralph]

4 minutes ago, iansums said:

a) How would you know? and b) I just did. I'm just making a point.

I've heard this argument been made a number of times. Its just different to the current approach but doesnt mean its wrong. This forum seems to have an issue with anyone who makes a suggestion which goes against the grain of the 'centrists' that have hijacked it.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, iansums said:

a) How would you know? and b) I just did. I'm just making a point.

Well intelligent people. As you live in a bigger house you need to contribute more to child social care as you will use it more isn’t a line anyone has pedalled to my knowledge 

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I've heard this argument been made a number of times. Its just different to the current approach but doesnt mean its wrong. This forum seems to have an issue with anyone who makes a suggestion which goes against the grain of the 'centrists' that have hijacked it.

 

Made by dim people who want to pay less yes. I don’t think it is a great system btw but saying I only use this so should pay that is no basis of a taxation system for society

[egg]

29 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Yes for local public infrastructure that we use such as rubbish and recycling, street lighting, libraries, police and fire funding etc. My genuine question is why is it that Council tax could now be based on national values? Does somebody in a 5 bed house in Blackpool use less or more infrastructure than someone in a 5 bed in london? My understanding is that with this new tax my money would go to fund infrastrucutre in other area, not in my local area. Why? It is irrelevant to mitigating my public infrastructure usage footprint as its in a completely different area. 

The current system is based on historic rateable value. The new idea being floated is based on an updated rateable value. 

The concept is well established. 

What do you propose instead? No flannel please, just your proposal. 

[Sir Ralph]

 

11 minutes ago, egg said:

The current system is based on historic rateable value. The new idea being floated is based on an updated rateable value. 

The concept is well established. 

What do you propose instead? No flannel please, just your proposal. 

You can have a local property tax based on local values - update the values if you want to. Have a tax that reflects the cost of local services and spend the money on local services. This appears to be a central taxation strategy for redistribution nationally which has littlebearing on local matters (sort of contrary to Burnham's proposals for devolution) under the badge of a local property tax. We already have income tax which does that job.

Edited 5 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Weston Super Saint]

4 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

No, that would be ridiculous. You would put a timeframe on the last time it was sold and each property would be assessed on say, a 3 year basis. You could also use planning permission and building regs sign off to estimate increase in property value (that's what they did to us once our renovations were complete - moved our bandings).

Also, I get the point you're making, but how many properties in the UK do you think you can buy for £150k and then spend £1m adding to it to make a property that is worth what you've spent. I'm betting not very many.

I bought my house 24 years ago.  It was bought new.  How do they value it?  The current 'rebuild' cost in my insurance is more than I paid for the house originally.

I'd be happy with 0.48% of the purchase price, not sure the council would be as happy to give me such a reduction though!

If it goes on current valuation, who's paying for it to be valued?  Certainly not me and I doubt the local council want to fork out for each house to get a current valuation.

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, Sir Ralph said:

And they are off. The 'centrists' who cant sensibly debate anything. You have an anger issue. Seek therapy.

I'm not sure what you took from that thinking I'm angry - I'm sat in the garden with a beautiful view doing some Lego. Life is grand.

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Isnt Council tax a charge for services though. What does it have to do with the value of the property. If you have a 5 bed in blackpool or london why do you rely more on services if you are in london, rather than blackpool? Hopefully they dont bring it in.

Transitional arrangements would be required as if you have already paid stamp duty you shouldnt have to pay this and it would catch too many pensioners otherwise that couldnt afford it. My Council tax would double to just shy of 5 figures annually. It would be a joke if it was brought in, just another way of taxing those who have worked hard. The statement after it was batted down by the spokesman was that the chancellor would be taking a view on all matters.

Council Tax is already based on property value.

[Farmer Saint]

12 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I bought my house 24 years ago.  It was bought new.  How do they value it?  The current 'rebuild' cost in my insurance is more than I paid for the house originally.

I'd be happy with 0.48% of the purchase price, not sure the council would be as happy to give me such a reduction though!

If it goes on current valuation, who's paying for it to be valued?  Certainly not me and I doubt the local council want to fork out for each house to get a current valuation.

TBF there are many sites that do this currently - Zoopla gives an estimate however far off that is - with AI nowadays I'm sure there is something clever that can be done.

I agree, the money needs to come from somewhere, it's why I said above it's not viable to do it all in one go both financially and operationally.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Council Tax is already based on property value.

That's why his argument is so weird. It makes no sense, unless it's purely that he wants his money to only benefit the local area. In which he fits perfectly into the "selfish cunts" bracket of people (like we didn't know that already).

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[badgerx16]

You are all aware that this "proposal" by https://fairershare.org.uk/ has been dismissed by #10 as not something being actively considered.

Edited 4 hours ago by badgerx16

[whelk]

Bring back the window tax

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You are all aware that this "proposal" by https://fairershare.org.uk/ has been dismissed by #10 as not something being actively considered.

Don’t let such details get in the way of a SW slanging match!

[Farmer Saint]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You are all aware that this "proposal" by https://fairershare.org.uk/ has been dismissed by #10 as not something being actively considered.

Oh yeah, said that above. Sir Ralph seemed to want to continue getting worked up.

Edited 4 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[Sir Ralph]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Council Tax is already based on property value.

Yes and crucially then linked to local council tax band payments, which are principally set at a local level to address local infrastructure. This is nationally based. Its very different.

[badgerx16]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Yes and crucially then linked to local council tax band payments, which are principally set at a local level to address local infrastructure. This is nationally based. Its very different.

And not happening.

[revolution saint]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

And not happening.

Didn't take long for the first U turn.

[egg]

31 minutes ago, whelk said:

Bring back the window tax

Good shout. 

I'll retrain as a bricklayer if that happens.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

I'm not sure what you took from that thinking I'm angry - I'm sat in the garden with a beautiful view doing some Lego. Life is grand.

If it's a Lego house you build, how much tax will you be paying on it? 🙂

[whelk]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

Didn't take long for the first U turn.

I want to know who is paying for this blatant tax raid on the middle classes 

[Farmer Saint]

23 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

If it's a Lego house you build, how much tax will you be paying on it? 🙂

Lego is fucking expensive TBF.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

Didn't take long for the first U turn.

Meet the new broom, same as the old broom 🙄

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Lego is fucking expensive TBF.

Tell me about it. I read the news in my Fererro Rocher home in horror. Only the sell by dates of each room can help me now.