right player ......wrong time..!

[david in sweden]

again another series of ..." we shouldn't have sold him " threads, as former Saints players make their mark in various games. Anders Svensson and Michael Nilsson worked their socks off (and snuffed Christiano Ronaldo out of the game) as Sweden came away from Portugal with a valuable 0-0 draw. Blackstock on loan to Forest, Brett Ormerod back to Blackpool in time for our recent game, Rory Delap terrifying defences with his long throws,etc, etc,

 

The fact is that ALL players don't play well all the time, and some aren't given the chance. Others don't want to stay (Mills to Doncaster via Man. City) ..Kevin Phillips wanted away, as did Kevin Davies (to Bolton).

There is a reason for moving on, sometimes they don't get a fair chance - can be said of Anders Svensson, bought by Stuart Gray (one of the few good things he did) but played wrongly by Strachan (one of the few wrong things he did). Blackstock was the worst of the young bunch, when he left. McGoldrick and Best were performing better at the time, and I was (pleasantly) surprised when we got a reported 500K for Dexter from QPR. Kevin Davies pi**ed Strachan off, turning up at Reserve training in his sports car and was useless in training (apparantly), and was glad to leave us.

The thread on Brett covered most of his story, but the recent complaints about Rory Delap really take the cake. YES, he was expensive - at £4 million (sounds cheap now - doesn't it ?) - another Stuart Gray signing btw.

Whatever position he was best at, no-one seems to know but like Michael Nilsson, he was used as a utility player (namely ; " if you want to play, son you'll play where I put you ".) Delap was injured a lot, (but not injury-prone IMHO) but someone who often got his body where his boot should have been and he paid the price with long lay-offs. I don't think successive managers got the best out of his ability and his long throws didn't bring many goals - namely I suggest that Saints (unlike Stoke) didn't have strikers good enough to put the ball in the back of the net often enough.

 

Yes,we can regret that former players are successful with ANOTHER club, but we cannot expect to keep players "on ice " for years hoping that they may eventually make the headlines.

 

Unfortunately, many just don't get their chance at the right time.

[Window Cleaner]

Strachan didn't know what to do with players like Svennsson, told him off for a back heeled flick in training apparently. Didn't know what to do with blokes like Delgado either, if fact talent in it's purest form when unallied to huff and puff and graft was a foreign language to WGS, and as we all know he had no time for foreign languages.

[paulwantsapint]

WGS saw English as a foreign language but would have back in a flash

 

Jim Magilton left to early to be replaced by Kevin Richardson think JM could have made great partner for Carlton Palmer

[Mr X]

Strachan didn't know what to do with players like Svennsson, told him off for a back heeled flick in training apparently. Didn't know what to do with blokes like Delgado either, if fact talent in it's purest form when unallied to huff and puff and graft was a foreign language to WGS, and as we all know he had no time for foreign languages.

 

other than his own, yes?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Strachan didn't know what to do with players like Svennsson, told him off for a back heeled flick in training apparently. Didn't know what to do with blokes like Delgado either, if fact talent in it's purest form when unallied to huff and puff and graft was a foreign language to WGS, and as we all know he had no time for foreign languages.

 

Strachan had big flaws imo. Yes he did reasonably well here, got the players fit, steadied the ship and got us to a Final but some of the football was really dire and he was/is far too stubborn. The way he failed to bring out the best in Kevin Davies is a good example of that. KD is/was a very good player who had lost his way and needed "managing". Strachan froze him out, he eventually left for nothing and yet since has given Bolton invaluable service and this season has played his way into the fringe of an England call up.

[david in sweden]

Strachan didn't know what to do with players like Svennsson, told him off for a back heeled flick in training apparently. Didn't know what to do with blokes like Delgado either, if fact talent in it's purest form when unallied to huff and puff and graft was a foreign language to WGS, and as we all know he had no time for foreign languages.

 

 

(I know Clive Woodward was disliked by many, but... he did like small details.)

So do I ....and (as a langauge teacher) ...if I had bought a non-english speaking player for over £3 million, I'd have invested a few grand more to get the fellow upto scratch with the langauge....especially while he was recuperating from his knee-op for so long !

 

I've taught hundreds of different nationalities over the years and it wouldn't have taken a lifetime to get Delgado up to pace with basic " Football English " Strachan was continually complaining that Delgado couldn't understand tactics and instructions..maybe Delgado should have learnt Scottish instead !

 

I think Strachan didn't know how to handle " prima donnas" .

[Eddie Lizzard]

Strachan had big flaws imo. Yes he did reasonably well here, got the players fit, steadied the ship and got us to a Final but some of the football was really dire and he was/is far too stubborn. The way he failed to bring out the best in Kevin Davies is a good example of that. KD is/was a very good player who had lost his way and needed "managing". Strachan froze him out, he eventually left for nothing and yet since has given Bolton invaluable service and this season has played his way into the fringe of an England call up.

 

I couldn't agree more!

[david in sweden]

Strachan had big flaws imo. Yes he did reasonably well here, got the players fit, steadied the ship and got us to a Final but some of the football was really dire and he was/is far too stubborn. The way he failed to bring out the best in Kevin Davies is a good example of that. KD is/was a very good player who had lost his way and needed "managing". Strachan froze him out, he eventually left for nothing and yet since has given Bolton invaluable service and this season has played his way into the fringe of an England call up.

 

Agree Duncan, I think Dave Jones knew how to handle KD in the right way.

[bpsaint]

Think its a bit harsh to accuse WGS of not knowing how to handle KD. Its pretty clear he was always a fan of the big man little man up front partnership, hence the pairing of Beatts with Pahars,Ormerod and Phillips,and as long as Beatts was here and was fit,KD knew thats how it would be. He left for guaranteed first team football IMO,not because Strachan had an issue with him.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Agree Duncan, I think Dave Jones knew how to handle KD in the right way.

 

He did - the David Jones court case was the start of our decline. I don't blame Rupert for having to part company with him but he was a good manager and it was a massive slice of bad luck for us and an appalling slice of luck for him. From there on after it has been mistake after mistake. I wonder what would have happened had the ridiculous accusations not arisen.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Think its a bit harsh to accuse WGS of not knowing how to handle KD. Its pretty clear he was always a fan of the big man little man up front partnership, hence the pairing of Beatts with Pahars,Ormerod and Phillips,and as long as Beatts was here and was fit,KD knew thats how it would be. He left for guaranteed first team football IMO,not because Strachan had an issue with him.

 

Don't agree - I remember KD being treated shabbily in the lead up to the final when GS named him in the squad and then never bothered to tell him he wouldn't even be on the bench. Once GS makes his mind up he can be far too narrow minded/inflexible. And I don't think big Sam would have guaranteed KD a guaranteed first team place.

[NickG]

He did - the David Jones court case was the start of our decline. I don't blame Rupert for having to part company with him but he was a good manager and it was a massive slice of bad luck for us and an appalling slice of luck for him. From there on after it has been mistake after mistake. I wonder what would have happened had the ridiculous accusations not arisen.

 

biggest single step back, in recent years, was when Hoddle left - felt we were moving to higher level then it stopped!

[bpsaint]

Don't agree - I remember KD being treated shabbily in the lead up to the final when GS named him in the squad and then never bothered to tell him he wouldn't even be on the bench. Once GS makes his mind up he can be far too narrow minded/inflexible. And I don't think big Sam would have guaranteed KD a guaranteed first team place.

 

Do you know GS personally? Just wondered as you make these claims about his personality and his treatment of KD as if they are fact. It was clearly a choice between Beatts and KD when it came to picking the first team week in week out,I'd have chosen Beatts without thinking twice,guess Strachan felt the same.

[rick1976.4.38]

i think we went down hill the day chris marsden(football genius) left.never have replaced him.coyr

[Alain Perrin]

I have a lot of sympathy with the criticism of GS. I remember getting really frustrated that he'd never make substitutions until 65 minutes.

 

But.... he got us to a final and for that is worth a lot in my eyes.

 

Hoddle, on the otherhand, did know how to change a game. You knew, if you went in one down at half time, Hoddle's team would come out fighting and reorganised. GS was hit and miss on this.

[um pahars]

Hoddle, on the otherhand, did know how to change a game.

 

I can certainly remember that Tranmere game when it all changed in the 2nd half;)

 

Have to say I don't go in for the criticism of WGS on this thread. He had his gameplan, he had his style and he had his favourites, but under him we did very, very well.

[Al de Man]

i think we went down hill the day chris marsden(football genius) left.never have replaced him.coyr

 

CMFG was never the same player after Bridge left.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Do you know GS personally? Just wondered as you make these claims about his personality and his treatment of KD as if they are fact. It was clearly a choice between Beatts and KD when it came to picking the first team week in week out,I'd have chosen Beatts without thinking twice,guess Strachan felt the same.

 

When Davies returned he linked up very well with Beattie, I remember them ripping Spurs apart Dec 2000 on a Sky game for instance.

 

My views re Strachan are just my opinion from watching and listening. I was not aware I had to personally know the individuals before voicing an opinion. Would you have let Davies go for nothing?

[Sheff Saint]

He did - the David Jones court case was the start of our decline. I don't blame Rupert for having to part company with him but he was a good manager and it was a massive slice of bad luck for us and an appalling slice of luck for him. From there on after it has been mistake after mistake. I wonder what would have happened had the ridiculous accusations not arisen.

 

Not sure that is true. Dave Jones was not an ok manager at best. After a decent first season the next one was dreadful and the year he left was the same again. Of course we don't know what state of mind he was in at that stage with all the rubbish hanging over him but i'm not sure i was sad when he left.

[sidthesquid]

Strachan had big flaws imo. Yes he did reasonably well here, got the players fit, steadied the ship and got us to a Final but some of the football was really dire and he was/is far too stubborn. The way he failed to bring out the best in Kevin Davies is a good example of that. KD is/was a very good player who had lost his way and needed "managing". Strachan froze him out, he eventually left for nothing and yet since has given Bolton invaluable service and this season has played his way into the fringe of an England call up.

 

All that may be true, but in the context of the time we had an England international scoring for fun - James Beattie - and Davies justifiably wasn't getting a game. A move was right for him at that time

[chocco boxo]

I bet Beattie will not score from a RD long throw in his time at Stoke!

GS is like most ex pros from his era, he seems to resent the "big time charlies non internationals" earning millions!

KD acted like one when he was here and was never near international recognition, so I think GS wanted shot of him. Shame as I thought KD with Beattie in the same side would have been good.

[eelpie]

Strachan had big flaws imo. Yes he did reasonably well here, got the players fit, steadied the ship and got us to a Final but some of the football was really dire and he was/is far too stubborn. The way he failed to bring out the best in Kevin Davies is a good example of that. KD is/was a very good player who had lost his way and needed "managing". Strachan froze him out, he eventually left for nothing and yet since has given Bolton invaluable service and this season has played his way into the fringe of an England call up.

 

Good points there.

Strachan's big achievement was getting them fit before the season started, something no-one else has managed. Oh, and he is a leader, and is respected/feared.

[Victor]

i think we went down hill the day chris marsden(football genius) left.never have replaced him.coyr

 

No, it all started when Frank Worthington left - we've finished lower in the league ever since then. Come back, Frank we need a smile!

[david in sweden]

Not sure that is true. Dave Jones was not an ok manager at best. After a decent first season the next one was dreadful and the year he left was the same again. Of course we don't know what state of mind he was in at that stage with all the rubbish hanging over him but i'm not sure i was sad when he left.

 

I agree absolutely, Sheffield

I have written before that - despite the horrendous (false) accusations against DJ, he really wasn't perfomimg well and might well have been sacked for poor performance (Saints were 17th) and I think Lowe did well to give him "gardening leave " - as apart from the charges against him - his own self confidence must have been near zero.

 

Bringing in Hoddle, was (IMHO) a masterstroke at the time.

Nine months later, DJ was freed from all charges but Hoddle had moulded a good team together, and it was right than he continued as manager.

 

Later events clouded all that, but it was a good decision at the time.

[bpsaint]

When Davies returned he linked up very well with Beattie, I remember them ripping Spurs apart Dec 2000 on a Sky game for instance.

 

I remember that game very well,wouldn't really say they tore Spurs apart though as it was only a 2-0 win,although I remember Davies tapping it in off the post for his goal from about 2 yards out whereas Beatts cut in from the left to bend a shot into the far corner of the net which kind of sums up what they were like a players. I always thought Davies was just a bit of a lump that you'd stick up front knowing if a chance fell in the box he'd probably take it,whereas with Beattie you had a player who would create his own chances, could score from pretty much anywhere, a deadball specialist,and was great with his head.

[Badger]

I agree absolutely, Sheffield

I have written before that - despite the horrendous (false) accusations against DJ, he really wasn't perfomimg well and might well have been sacked for poor performance (Saints were 17th) and I think Lowe did well to give him "gardening leave " - as apart from the charges against him - his own self confidence must have been near zero.

 

Bringing in Hoddle, was (IMHO) a masterstroke at the time.

Nine months later, DJ was freed from all charges but Hoddle had moulded a good team together, and it was right than he continued as manager.

 

Later events clouded all that, but it was a good decision at the time.

 

 

Agree with you totally on these points,although feel the handling of Jones departure was a hamfisted bumbling by Lowe trying to wrap it up.

[beatlesaint]

He did - the David Jones court case was the start of our decline. I don't blame Rupert for having to part company with him but he was a good manager and it was a massive slice of bad luck for us and an appalling slice of luck for him. From there on after it has been mistake after mistake. I wonder what would have happened had the ridiculous accusations not arisen.

 

Ooo Duncan, I think this is just about the first time i have ever disagreed with what you say. Jones I am sure would have been sacked that season had Lowe not put him on "gardening leave" or whatever you want to call it in order to fight his non case.

We were bloody awful that season....now wether thats to do with Jones mind being elsewhere I have no idea obviously but Jones didnt pull up any trees at Wolves and hasnt really at Cardiff. He seems to have one or two good seasons at the most then its let down time.

 

The decline started when those North London yobbos came sniffing around Hoddle...