Results 1 to 32 of 32

Thread: We need an experienced defensive coach/co-ordinator/analyst

  1. #1

    Default We need an experienced defensive coach/co-ordinator/analyst

    By that I mean not only a defensive coach but a coach that was firstly a highly exiperienced, preferably ex international and has been a proper team captain as a player. Secondly a strong personality. Dave Brailsford, the Olympic, Sky, and now Ineos cycling team's coach/manager was asked what he put his great success down to. His response was immediately "Marginal Gains".

    That is the little things that make things better overall. Against Norwich two moments summed that up. Just after half time Shane Long was tracking Tetty on the halfway line made a half hearted pass at a press and let him go unhindered, despite being the quicker player, he couldn't be bothered because he didn't see the danger. One pass later the ball was in our net. The second was leading 2-1, Cedric had the ball on the right touchline there was seconds of injury time left, instead of going for the corner or passing for somebody else to get in the corner, he just aimlessly lofted the ball in front of the penalty area, in front of the Norwich defenders, the ball went upfield quickly and Norwich had two chances with seconds left. Shades of Peter Crouch against Everton in 2005.

    Again yesterday two things again, the first Redmond broke quickly down the centre and was breaking the Newcastle line, Shelvey tripped him purposely which finished the move. The second and probably the most important moment in the game for us. A free kick to the back post Long headed it out towards the touchline, Carroll picked it up but Long quickly got out to Carroll then stopped a few yards short giving Carroll room to cross on his left foot for the first goal. What was wrong, Long should have known Carroll's natural foot was his left, firstly he was blocking his right and showing him inside. Instead he should have blocked Carroll's left foot and inside, showed him the line on his weaker foot, especially as he was a lot quicker than Carroll. This simple thing cost us a goal and probably the match. Again he could have fairly physically tackled Carroll and taken the player and ball out of play.

    The defensive attitude, organisation and knowledge of the players is poor. Too many are playing off the cuff and just reacting often wrongly. We need an expert defensive coach to change the mindset. Even great players can't do it. Our very average defenders need guidance and instruction. Danny Ings who has spent a few years at Liverpool gets it. He tracks, challenges, tackles and wins a lot of balls defending wherever he is on the pitch. We need all the players completing the press and not just letting the opponent go just because it doesn't look dangerous in that moment.

    It is a big weakness, If we can cut out the errors we can make the goals we do score worth more points. It's the "Marginal Gains" that will bring in the points. IMHO get a defensive coach, Three goalkeeping coaches isn't working, unless putting out the cones is important.
    Last edited by derry; 09-12-2019 at 11:28 AM.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The Premier League
    Posts
    448

    Default

    Good post derry, we can all see what is wrong, but someone needs to grasp the nettle.

  3. Default

    We need all the marginal gains we can get for some mental strength after 85 minutes.

    Instead of a coach I would prefer an experienced calm but vocal centre back bossing the team on the pitch to resolve this one.

  4. #4

    Default

    our defenders didn't move
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsland Red View Post
    We need all the marginal gains we can get for some mental strength after 85 minutes.

    Instead of a coach I would prefer an experienced calm but vocal centre back bossing the team on the pitch to resolve this one.
    That is vital too but it's all the other players that need educating and brain washing into a ruthless determined state of mind. A vocal controlling centre back captain, would be necessary if we could find one. An example of the other though through education, when Longstaff shot until the ball hit the back of the net after Mcarthy's block only Newcastle players followed it in. Our defenders were on their heels ball watching and nobody moved. That happens a lot with most of the players.

  5. #5

    Default

    No coach can do much about repeated defensive errors, it's not like we are set up wrong or anything, shape is generally good, organisation looks good, they look like they know what they doing but crucially under pressure they make mistakes.

    It won't be fixed without a personnel change, which is probably why the board are sticking with the manager when so many other clubs would have sacked him after a poor run.

    We create loads of chances but don't score enough of them, and we give the opposition too many easy goals through easy errors. Whatever the manager or coaches do, won't change those two realities.

    The only way to realistically improve is to have better players who take more chances and make less defensive mistakes.

    Then we can talk about marginal gains which might be what pushes up back to challenging for top 6/8.

  6. #6

    Default

    We just need better defenders, that's pretty much it.

    If we had VVD and Fonte at the back, with exactly the same coaches, we'd be winning games and keeping clean sheets.

    Our problem is we have the likes of Stephens now as a starter.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    1,819

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by derry View Post
    By that I mean not only a defensive coach but a coach that was firstly a highly exiperienced, preferably ex international and has been a proper team captain as a player. Secondly a strong personality. Dave Brailsford, the Olympic, Sky, and now Ineos cycling team's coach/manager was asked what he put his great success down to. His response was immediately "Marginal Gains".

    That is the little things that make things better overall. Against Norwich two moments summed that up. Just after half time Shane Long was tracking Tetty on the halfway line made a half hearted pass at a press and let him go unhindered, despite being the quicker player, he couldn't be bothered because he didn't see the danger. One pass later the ball was in our net. The second was leading 2-1, Cedric had the ball on the right touchline there was seconds of injury time left, instead of going for the corner or passing for somebody else to get in the corner, he just aimlessly lofted the ball in front of the penalty area, in front of the Norwich defenders, the ball went upfield quickly and Norwich had two chances with seconds left. Shades of Peter Crouch against Everton in 2005.

    Again yesterday two things again, the first Redmond broke quickly down the centre and was breaking the Newcastle line, Shelvey tripped him purposely which finished the move. The second and probably the most important moment in the game for us. A free kick to the back post Long headed it out towards the touchline, Carroll picked it up but Long quickly got out to Carroll then stopped a few yards short giving Carroll room to cross on his left foot for the first goal. What was wrong, Long should have known Carroll's natural foot was his left, firstly he was blocking his right and showing him inside. Instead he should have blocked Carroll's left foot and inside, showed him the line on his weaker foot, especially as he was a lot quicker than Carroll. This simple thing cost us a goal and probably the match. Again he could have fairly physically tackled Carroll and taken the player and ball out of play.

    The defensive attitude, organisation and knowledge of the players is poor. Too many are playing off the cuff and just reacting often wrongly. We need an expert defensive coach to change the mindset. Even great players can't do it. Our very average defenders need guidance and instruction. Danny Ings who has spent a few years at Liverpool gets it. He tracks, challenges, tackles and wins a lot of balls defending wherever he is on the pitch. We need all the players completing the press and not just letting the opponent go just because it doesn't look dangerous in that moment.

    It is a big weakness, If we can cut out the errors we can make the goals we do score worth more points. It's the "Marginal Gains" that will bring in the points. IMHO get a defensive coach, Three goalkeeping coaches isn't working, unless putting out the cones is important.
    An astute and interesting post. Refreshing. I think we need an impetus of coaching quality in general as it has been neglected and gone to seed. Goalkeeping coaching especially. Ok, Forster at Celtic you can argue is an easier league but it's still the same shots at goal, the same power and placement of penalties bar the slightly improvement in the PL arguably. Gazzaniga was poor for us but has gone on to become Spurs first choice keeper. Gunn was City's hot shot young keeper and I don't think they would have insisted on first refusal clause in his contract unless this was part of a sales deception to make the player appear more sought after than he perhaps truly was by City. Either is plausible and Saints now have a rep. by clubs for being seen coming. We have squandered millions. One of Gunn or Forster need to go in Jan. Elynoussi too. Get some funds in. CB is a must but no more transfer crusading from me. We will likely not buy which will be our demise (I am tempting fate to be proved wrong)/

    We need to recruit heavily in coaching. It has been totally neglected as funding has across the length and breadth of the club and our spirit and impetus is rotten from the core. Until someone comes in and recognises and drives that falling by the wayside (hoping Crocker does this), then we will struggle. The club needs an overhaul and that ambitious, driven, attention to detail we lost 5 years ago reinstated and revitalised. When we entered the PL, we arrived on a crest of a wave under a great mentality and spirit instilled by the likes of Adkins and co. Psychology is everything at this level.

    All the remaining custodians or so called management (allegedly) appear to have been on a jolly ever since, as evidence suggests (3 relegation battles, repeated transfer failings, over priced contracts, no leadership, declining quality or coaches and up-scaling inadequate and unskilled staff in situ due to budget restrictions, a large majority of exiting 'high quality' staff under our current regime have simply not been replaced, Rohl being the biggest example for impact, previous examples Malc Webster, Malc Elias, Huw Jennings, George Prost, Paul Mitchell, etc. but these were not all under Gao but the problem has perpetuated on a larger scale).

    Question, do we have a current Academy Director, in the role Huw Jennings once had? It was Matt Hale (another internal promotion but how well is he regarded? Hoping not the same vein as our assistant manager which has smacks of cost cutting like Dave Watson and Kelv as coaches. In the role but not the best choice and likely out of depth in that role. I am only commenting from third hand info. via contacts.
    It appears even our fabled Academy has slipped and I heard we had no managers for the under 18s and another age group. We still (technically) do not even have a DOF. That position has laid vacant for over 12 months. How many other PL clubs would allow that, yet still make a profit in the financial statements? Employ key staff. Normal business plans have a structure in place and staff are replaced asap. I understand looking to find the right man but after 12 months, excuses grow thin and seem disingenuous.

    We desperately need leadership and ambition and direction (and the staff to execute this plan, or execute the rot permeating through the club). I get the scary impression, under our current regime, that will come too late in January when it is all too late, akin to shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Not a shock at this club. 3 relegation battles suggest, we do not learn the easy way and utilise foresight. Letís not lose hope but the evidence is not good.

    The small margins point is a well articulated point. Large margins also needs addressing. We donít even do the basics, it seems. Maybe the players need take some responsibility and why is Valery not starting ahead of Soares unless he is playing in a January sales shop window? To sell him now without replacing (which I wouldnít put past saints *cough* Targett) would be suicide but we are too thin to lose any full backs without upgrading them.

  8. Default

    Need a ****ing psychologist. We looked OK until we scored and it slowly dawned on them we might win 3 on the bounce. Then the legs turned to jelly and the panicking began.

  9. #9

    Default

    What happened to the rumour about Klopps ex no. 2?

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S-Clarke View Post
    Our problem is we have the likes of Stephens now as a starter.
    Apparently we cant criticise him now cos he tries and he cares

    The fact hes still absolute **** doesnt seem to matter !

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    in clover
    Posts
    2,212

    Default

    Nostalgia makes the defender seem better.
    Let's be honest Fonte made loads of mistakes during his career with us,
    often gave away penalties often and played like a carthorse at times.

  12. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Plumstead_Saint View Post
    Nostalgia makes the defender seem better.
    Let's be honest Fonte made loads of mistakes during his career with us,
    often gave away penalties often and played like a carthorse at times.
    True, Lundekvam and Monkou both had mistakes in them. Looking back, the centre back that was brilliant to watch live (you get that view that the TV doesn't give you) was Dean Richards. His anticipation and tracking of aerial balls was absolutely top notch, he would snuff out the danger before it could happen.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    New Forest
    Posts
    5,707

    Default

    Wishful thinking. Can you honestly see anything changing this season, no money means no extra quality anywhere on or off the pitch.

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    1,819

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LeG View Post
    What happened to the rumour about Klopps ex no. 2?
    Did you ever believe that though? I would love to get Buvac and love to be wrong. Just look at how the club operate in the rumours. After every major back step, a small series of damage limitation, carrot dangling remedies get launched into the aether. About 2% of them are true. Look at the promises made post Leicester and that emanates from the club as The Telegraph is the club choice and they wouldn’t publish it if it were from some third hand back source. Wait until the end of January to see how true those platitudes were but also consider, even comments like this are monitored. We should all give up and threaten mass protest or anti owner campaign and it may prompt them into action. Under Gao, unlikely.

    Do agree though, Buvac or coaches of that quality are a must if we back up our bullsh*t. Ralph is crying out for a strong number 2. Then the press would really love the former Klopp of the Alps press blurb. With our current scenario, it’s more like the Plop of the Alps. Certainly sunk down the table as quick as a turd through water. #WeBreedSuccess. If we clearly aren’t going to buy success (& be a feeder farm selling it) with quality players then we need to breed it. To Breed it you need good coaches. We have neither. Hence our position.

  15. #15

    Default

    Maybe he was interviewed for the DoF role and we simply decided to go for Crocker instead. Slightly more believable than him coming onboard as a coach.

  16. #16

    Default

    Maybe Ralph just asked him to come and watch the training for a couple of days.

    Maybe he asked to, as many coaches do.

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusic View Post
    Maybe Ralph just asked him to come and watch the training for a couple of days.

    Maybe he asked to, as many coaches do.
    maybe we were considering sacking ralph

  18. #18

    Default

    Our defence isn't the biggest problem. It's our midfield and it's all to do with tactics. Ralph likes his teams to win the ball high up the pitch, so he will get the midfield to push up high. The defence doesn't push up as high (for good reason) so it leaves a huge gap. Teams then overrun us in midfield and we are often left with a 3v3 or 3v2 situation. When the defence is running back towards goal like that, you'll get way more mistakes and it's happening to us several times a game.

    There's needs to be a balance between the press and keeping the midfield tight. Atm he doesn't have the balance right so when we lose the ball or miss a chance, one ball over the top and we are being counter attacked with ease.

    Don't get me wrong, the defence has been woeful this season but these factors don't help them at all.

  19. #19

    Default

    One of the serious problems with all of our defenders is ball watching and consequently losing sight the player that inevitably scores, time and time again. Another problem is a lack of positional sense, almost a spacial disorientation. A lack of defensive knowledge, for example not recognising that an opponent has a weak side that can be played on rather than letting players onto their strength. It is only by having a seriously bright and experienced defensive coach that these historical weaknesses can be knocked on the head.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Troy View Post
    maybe we were considering sacking ralph
    So they got another guy in and had an x-factor style training session where the players voted which guy they liked best?

    Unlikely.

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by derry View Post
    It is only by having a seriously bright and experienced defensive coach that these historical weaknesses can be knocked on the head.
    Absolute drivel.

    Its by having better defenders who are better one vs one against some of the best attackers in the world.

    No coach would stop Stephens make mistakes, make Vestergaard less clumsy or turn Yoshida into a beast who doesn't get easily brushed off the ball.

  22. #22

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    1,819

    Default

    [QUOTE=Shance;2783947]Our defence isn't the biggest problem. It's our midfield and it's all to do with tactics. [QUOTE]

    Errrrr, it is. Youíve a fair point about that tactics and the midfield which do not help or protect the defence but itís more than obvious, our defending, marking, passing (constantly giving it away, all areas of the squad) and tracking and interceptions are abysmal. The worst in the league. Stats donít lie.

    Do accept, tactically, we are flawed. Many matches have been lost down to it. Bournemouth. Leicester. Many more. Ralph needs a solid assistant. Our midfield is a big concern but defence is glaringly the issue.

  23. #23

    Default

    It’s quite amusing to me the ammount of slack Ralph gets cut around here...actually worst ppg then Pellegrino at this stage of season. Results go bad excuses are made that the players are totally terrible,, tactics are wrong hmm maybe Ralph needs a new assistant or defensive coach ? No body gave this much leeway to to Pellegrino and Hughes or even purl who finished 8th and got us to a cup final, just saying

  24. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpin4rizeal View Post
    It’s quite amusing to me the ammount of slack Ralph gets cut around here...actually worst ppg then Pellegrino at this stage of season. Results go bad excuses are made that the players are totally terrible,, tactics are wrong hmm maybe Ralph needs a new assistant or defensive coach ? No body gave this much leeway to to Pellegrino and Hughes or even purl who finished 8th and got us to a cup final, just saying
    Probably because they had much easier fixtures, we had the hardest first dozen games of anyone in the league.

    Oh and he had us performing much better last season, neither of which Hughes or Pellegrino did.

    It's also very clear that the style of play, the approach, the set up is much better than either of those two managers, it's just the players are not very good at executing the plans, whereas Hughes and Pellegrino didn't even look like they had any plans.

    --------------------------

    And people talking about our midfield problem are talking nonsense, since Hojberg and JWP have been playing there together they have been very good, we have been overturning possession almost as well as anyone in the league and that is a lot down to those two.

    It's individual defensive errors that are costing us points, mainly around marking.

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusic View Post
    Absolute drivel.

    Its by having better defenders who are better one vs one against some of the best attackers in the world.

    No coach would stop Stephens make mistakes, make Vestergaard less clumsy or turn Yoshida into a beast who doesn't get easily brushed off the ball.
    This is simplistic, especially when we paid so much for these so obviously flawed players. Vestergaard is slow, poor in the air with the turning circle of a tanker. Cedric is small etc this cannot be changed. Why the club paid so much for so little when one look would have seen these players problems. Other players could be coached to be better and more aware but it isn't happening.

    We have run out of money, having to sell and loan players before we can replace maybe one or two. Replacing players is not possible we have missed that boat with the wasted transfers of the recent seasons. We can afford a good coach to improve defensive play and organisation which is far better than carrying on making the same mistakes and doing nothing. That could really cost us. Especially if the EFL bring in a salary cap and relegated teams are unable to sell not very good expensive players.
    Last edited by derry; 13-12-2019 at 05:09 PM.

  26. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajjuk View Post
    Probably because they had much easier fixtures, we had the hardest first dozen games of anyone in the league.

    Oh and he had us performing much better last season, neither of which Hughes or Pellegrino did.

    It's also very clear that the style of play, the approach, the set up is much better than either of those two managers, it's just the players are not very good at executing the plans, whereas Hughes and Pellegrino didn't even look like they had any plans.

    --------------------------

    And people talking about our midfield problem are talking nonsense, since Hojberg and JWP have been playing there together they have been very good, we have been overturning possession almost as well as anyone in the league and that is a lot down to those two.

    It's individual defensive errors that are costing us points, mainly around marking.
    we have played 16 games now so pretty close to playing everyone once. . just to clarify im not quite saying that ralph is as bad as pelle and hughes. more that just i find it a bit weird the ammount of excuses rolled out for him in comparison

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    upthecreekwithoutapaddle
    Posts
    6,611

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by derry View Post
    By that I mean not only a defensive coach but a coach that was firstly a highly exiperienced, preferably ex international and has been a proper team captain as a player. Secondly a strong personality. Dave Brailsford, the Olympic, Sky, and now Ineos cycling team's coach/manager was asked what he put his great success down to. His response was immediately "Marginal Gains".

    That is the little things that make things better overall. Against Norwich two moments summed that up. Just after half time Shane Long was tracking Tetty on the halfway line made a half hearted pass at a press and let him go unhindered, despite being the quicker player, he couldn't be bothered because he didn't see the danger. One pass later the ball was in our net. The second was leading 2-1, Cedric had the ball on the right touchline there was seconds of injury time left, instead of going for the corner or passing for somebody else to get in the corner, he just aimlessly lofted the ball in front of the penalty area, in front of the Norwich defenders, the ball went upfield quickly and Norwich had two chances with seconds left. Shades of Peter Crouch against Everton in 2005.

    Again yesterday two things again, the first Redmond broke quickly down the centre and was breaking the Newcastle line, Shelvey tripped him purposely which finished the move. The second and probably the most important moment in the game for us. A free kick to the back post Long headed it out towards the touchline, Carroll picked it up but Long quickly got out to Carroll then stopped a few yards short giving Carroll room to cross on his left foot for the first goal. What was wrong, Long should have known Carroll's natural foot was his left, firstly he was blocking his right and showing him inside. Instead he should have blocked Carroll's left foot and inside, showed him the line on his weaker foot, especially as he was a lot quicker than Carroll. This simple thing cost us a goal and probably the match. Again he could have fairly physically tackled Carroll and taken the player and ball out of play.

    The defensive attitude, organisation and knowledge of the players is poor. Too many are playing off the cuff and just reacting often wrongly. We need an expert defensive coach to change the mindset. Even great players can't do it. Our very average defenders need guidance and instruction. Danny Ings who has spent a few years at Liverpool gets it. He tracks, challenges, tackles and wins a lot of balls defending wherever he is on the pitch. We need all the players completing the press and not just letting the opponent go just because it doesn't look dangerous in that moment.

    It is a big weakness, If we can cut out the errors we can make the goals we do score worth more points. It's the "Marginal Gains" that will bring in the points. IMHO get a defensive coach, Three goalkeeping coaches isn't working, unless putting out the cones is important.
    Well defined. So how do we get the message to Mr Gao and co?

  28. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpin4rizeal View Post
    we have played 16 games now so pretty close to playing everyone once. . just to clarify im not quite saying that ralph is as bad as pelle and hughes. more that just i find it a bit weird the ammount of excuses rolled out for him in comparison
    Ralph is McMenemy in disguise.

  29. #29

    Default

    [QUOTE=Gordon Mockles;2784056][QUOTE=Shance;2783947]Our defence isn't the biggest problem. It's our midfield and it's all to do with tactics.

    Errrrr, it is. You’ve a fair point about that tactics and the midfield which do not help or protect the defence but it’s more than obvious, our defending, marking, passing (constantly giving it away, all areas of the squad) and tracking and interceptions are abysmal. The worst in the league. Stats don’t lie.

    Do accept, tactically, we are flawed. Many matches have been lost down to it. Bournemouth. Leicester. Many more. Ralph needs a solid assistant. Our midfield is a big concern but defence is glaringly the issue.
    I'm not saying our defence isn't a problem, just that in my opinion it isn't the biggest problem. If we had a decent screen in front of the defence then they wouldn't make half the mistakes they do.

    That said, I take your point on the passing. It's terrible and we do need a decent Cb as what we have isn't good enough.

  30. #30

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    New Forest
    Posts
    5,707

    Default

    Bit of a shocker to hear Hasenhuttl bigging up "our" Dave for the Bertrand set piece side shoe shuffle. Most on here have him marked down as a useless git?

    Surely he gets an assist for this, more than Redmond all season and he's only on the bench.

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    New Forest
    Posts
    5,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eelpie View Post
    Well defined. So how do we get the message to Mr Gao and co?
    Identifying what we need has never been a problem and Mr Gao will know this as well as anybody. Finding the people and paying the price are the real challenges for him. No-way he wants us to lose our PL status but if genuinely there is no money what the hell is he supposed to do? His credit rating must be close to zero with the debt he already has on the club.

  32. #32

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    upthecreekwithoutapaddle
    Posts
    6,611

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Wayman View Post
    Identifying what we need has never been a problem and Mr Gao will know this as well as anybody. Finding the people and paying the price are the real challenges for him. No-way he wants us to lose our PL status but if genuinely there is no money what the hell is he supposed to do? His credit rating must be close to zero with the debt he already has on the club.
    He could sell or sack two of the current goalkeeping coaches. Their wages would help for starters.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •